Is God Vengeful?

[AnneElizabeth]

If you commit a sin here on earth does God - confession notwithstanding - punish you for your actions?

Ecclesiastes 8:11
When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. **Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
**

 

[Vico]

If you commit a sin here on earth does God - confession notwithstanding - punish you for your actions?

St. Pope John Paul II, SALVIFICI DOLORIS

“While it is true that suffering has a meaning as punishment, when it is connected with a fault, it is not true that all suffering is a consequence of a fault and has the nature of a punishment.”

The two punishments of sin are a not to be thought of as a kind of*** vengeance ***inflicted by God.

• Eternal punishment deprives us of communion with God.
• Temporal punishment is unhealthy attachment to creatures.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84

St. Augustine, Confessions, Book III, chap. 8:
“Your punishments are for sins which men commit against themselves, because, although they sin against You, they do wrong in their own souls and their malice is self-betrayed. They corrupt and pervert their own nature, which You made and for which You shaped the rules, either by making wrong use of the things which You allow, or by becoming inflamed with passion to make unnatural use of things which You do not allow” (Rom. 1:26).

 

[clem456]

It’s a difficult thing to answer.

Jesus is God’s full and final revelation. When we see Jesus, we see the Father.
“This is how God behaves”.

It seems the answer to the question :“Is God Vengeful?” must be “no”.
Vengeance as commonly defined is not of God, OT interpretations of God’s will notwithstanding.
Vengeance is an equaling of the playing field between offender and offended. That is meaningless to God, who needs nothing, as he is infinitely without equal.

Does God punish? It doesn’t seem to me that Christ emphasizes punishment. It could be in God’s nature to punish. It would be within his right as our creator. It might even be to our benefit for God to punish, as it may draw us towards him.

I see “punishment” meaning his allowance for the consequences of our sins, rather than a desire on his part to inflict. Christ demonstrates no desire to inflict.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

It’s a difficult thing to answer.

Jesus is God’s full and final revelation. When we see Jesus, we see the Father.
“This is how God behaves”.

It seems the answer to the question :“Is God Vengeful?” must be “no”.
Vengeance as commonly defined is not of God, OT interpretations of God’s will notwithstanding.
Vengeance is an equaling of the playing field between offender and offended. That is meaningless to God, who needs nothing, as he is infinitely without equal.

Does God punish? It doesn’t seem to me that Christ emphasizes punishment. It could be in God’s nature to punish. It would be within his right as our creator. It might even be to our benefit for God to punish, as it may draw us towards him.

I see “punishment” meaning his allowance for the consequences of our sins, rather than a desire on his part to inflict. Christ demonstrates no desire to inflict.

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

John 2:
…13The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;…

I’m questioning what you said. (bolded emphasis mine in your quote) Christ never desires to inflict? How do you reconcile that with the Passion He felt over the sin that was in His Father’s House?

 

[clem456]

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

John 2:
…13The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;…

I’m questioning what you said. (bolded emphasis mine in your quote) Christ never desires to inflict? How do you reconcile that with the Passion He felt over the sin that was in His Father’s House?

I tried to present a distinction between vengeance, just punishment and the desire to inflict.
A desire to inflict implies ill will on the part of God, which could not be possible, since God is love, and love is “to will the good of another…”.

There are many people who see God as possessing ill will in allowing the consequences of sin. Misinterpretation of the OT does not help. God is frequently represented as mean, and having a desire to punish people.
I was trying to draw a distinction between that erroneous concept of God and the actual life of Christ.

 

[chaplainmom]

We are loved unconditionally by a merciful God who keeps giving us second chances. Our God of the New Testament is NOT a punishing God. It was the Ancient Hebrew people of the Old Testament who understood God to be a punishing God. Jesus Christ came to teach humanity that we have a loving Creator not a punishing Creator. However, we do suffer the consequences for our actions. If we make sinful choices, God takes us back and gives us a loving hug, but we still might have a mess to deal with.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I tried to present a distinction between vengeance, just punishment and the desire to inflict.
A desire to inflict implies ill will on the part of God, which could not be possible, since God is love, and love is “to will the good of another…”.

There are many people who see God as possessing ill will in allowing the consequences of sin. Misinterpretation of the OT does not help. God is frequently represented as mean, and having a desire to punish people.
I was trying to draw a distinction between that erroneous concept of God and the actual life of Christ.

Ok I see… .I might be just picking at straws there… I was curious as that thought of the temple cleansing came to mind.

I see what you mean and agree totally. A good father disciplines his children for their own good, not out of anger, not out of spite, but out of love for the child, to keep them safe and to teach them to be good, wise… all those virtues that make a good father good.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

… God is frequently represented as mean, **and having a desire to punish people. **
I was trying to draw a distinction between that erroneous concept of God and the actual life of Christ.

I guess I still see that God does have a desire to punish people. People do get sent to hell after all and there is that Scripture that says not to fear men but he who can throw you into the fires of hell… I paraphrased that, but hopefully you understand. I don’t see that as mean though, nor unrighteous of God to do that, yet I do understand people misconstrue. …me included, since its very tough sometimes to wonder if we are being punished for sin we did or just suffering on account of someone else’s or maybe just circumstance??.. whatever it is, though those things and sufferings can lead us back to Christ to understand, to learn and not do it again when we turn to Christ and ask, seek… etc.
So I guess I am picking at straws because essentially we are saying the same thing. Its just that I get nervous when people make God out to sound as if... I dunno that whole "buddy christ" thing that is out there these days- NOT saying you or any other poster here is.... just that I get nervous about it because that is not the right way to worship God. Because... Its too easy to slip into sin when we don't fear God, and we should. We can start thinking something is right and ok in our minds, but maybe to God it is not.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

One more question though… this desire to inflict… about it being bad, could it not also be good since if its done to bring back a lost sheep, would that not be good?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

One more question though… this desire to inflict… about it being bad, could it not also be good since if its done to bring back a lost sheep, would that not be good?

If this were the case, why does God punish the good as well as the bad ?

St Bernadette suffered horribly, despite being a good holy person.

Of course as mentioned before, Our Blessed Mother and St John the Baptist as well.

Both suffered despite being without sin.

Jim