Is God's Forgiveness Unconditional?

  • Thread starter Thread starter pat
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Bishop Sheen used to tell a story about this.

Goes something like this:

A child offends his mother is like putting a nail into a board. When he says he is sorry and asks forgiveness the mother pulls the nail out. But there still is a hole left where the nail was. This hole still needs to be filled.
 
40.png
pat:
So forgiveness is unconditional It is *reconciliation *that is conditioned by asking for forgiveness.

A: You stole my bike.
B: Please forgive me – but I’m keeping the bike.
A: You’re forgiven because I’m giving forgiveness unconditionally.

Is that a reconciliation or cheap grace or something else?
Click to expand...
That is not a reconciliation at all, that is forgiveness. When I forgive you, before you even ask, I accept you as a child of God, and I know that God fogives you, and that I must. So, I pray for you, I wish you only the very best (which is salvation). I pray that you reconcile yourself with God. I don’t necessarily trust you, because I know you are a bike theif, but I forgive you.
Further, God forgives your offensive, before you even ask, but to reconcile with God you must accept the conditions (yes plural)

  1. *]You must be willing to accept God’s judgement (no room for plea bagaining here).
    *]You must be contrite, i.e. sorry for the offense (really sorry, as in, “You can fool me but you can’t fool God.”)
    *]You must make the best restitution possible (In this case I want my bike back)
    *]You must be sincerly resolved not to offend God again.

    Then you can be reconcilled with God, and Grace flows into you. But, God’s Grace flows from reconcilliation with God, not from forgiveness by God.
    We (you and I) can be reconciled on pretty much the same basis really, and in that case you would regain my trust. I would still pray that you would reconcile with God, because I cannot restore you to God’s Grace. The best I can do is share a couple beers or go to a ball game.

    God’s Grace isn’t cheap, but it is worth the price.

    :blessyou:
    Charliemac

    May Apologies, I realize that I made you the bike theif in my example. When I saw that I didn’t want to edit the whole thing. I do ask your forgiveness, and I hope that we can be reconciled, even though you know that I make some pretty dumb mistakes sometimes. :o
    Look me up if you get to my town, and I’ll treat ya to a pint of the Guiness Mr. Patrick Sweeney.
 
<<How can you forgive someone who has yet to ask your forgiveness?>>

I’m sorry, but this sentence isn’t clear to me. Are you asking “how can you forgive someone who has yet to ask (for) your forgiveness?”
Or “how can you forgive someone who has yet to ask (for) forgiveness?” They are two different yet related things.
.
Example: Mr. X. steals a book from Mrs. Y. She can forgive him the theft even if he NEVER asks her for forgiveness–even if he outright lies and says he never stole, etc. She does it from the “Our Father”. . . “and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” Nothing in there that says the trespassers against us have to ask our forgiveness. (Though it certainly is good for both them and us if they DO, eventually).

That’s a personal thing, though. The sinner has sinned directly against you.
Now, if you aren’t Mrs. Y, can YOU forgive Mr. X for stealing Mrs. Y’s book? Of course not. Only GOD can do that.

So, if the sin is not against you (either individually or as part of a group), you can’t forgive it, whether the person asks you for forgiveness or not. (That is, unless you are a Roman Catholic priest hearing the person’s confession. . .which I am not).

But if the sin IS against you, you CAN forgive it (against you) even if the person never asks you to forgive. But boy howdy, some sins are mighty HARD to forgive. Believe me, I know. Those can only be forgiven by you if you have GOD to help you do it.

In His peace and love. . .
 
40.png
buffalo:
How can you forgive someone who has yet to ask your forgiveness?
Click to expand...
The cheap answer is, “With difficulty.” But that isn’t really it.

If we agree that I must forgive unconditionally, then I must forgive you even if you don’t ask. That said, how can I justify waiting for you to ask. I believe that I may not even say the Lord’s Prayer if I am with holding forgiveness.

Charliemac
 
Tantum ergo said:
<<How can you forgive someone who has yet to ask your forgiveness?>>

I’m sorry, but this sentence isn’t clear to me. Are you asking “how can you forgive someone who has yet to ask (for) your forgiveness?”
Or “how can you forgive someone who has yet to ask (for) forgiveness?” They are two different yet related things.
.
Example: Mr. X. steals a book from Mrs. Y. She can forgive him the theft even if he NEVER asks her for forgiveness–even if he outright lies and says he never stole, etc. She does it from the “Our Father”. . . “and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” Nothing in there that says the trespassers against us have to ask our forgiveness. (Though it certainly is good for both them and us if they DO, eventually).

That’s a personal thing, though. The sinner has sinned directly against you.
Now, if you aren’t Mrs. Y, can YOU forgive Mr. X for stealing Mrs. Y’s book? Of course not. Only GOD can do that.

So, if the sin is not against you (either individually or as part of a group), you can’t forgive it, whether the person asks you for forgiveness or not. (That is, unless you are a Roman Catholic priest hearing the person’s confession. . .which I am not).

But if the sin IS against you, you CAN forgive it (against you) even if the person never asks you to forgive. But boy howdy, some sins are mighty HARD to forgive. Believe me, I know. Those can only be forgiven by you if you have GOD to help you do it.

In His peace and love. . .
Click to expand...

I cannot grant forgiveness to someone who has not asked me for it. I may forget or trivialize the offense but their is still an element in our relationship lacking.

I may say to someone “I forgive you”. They might reply “for what?” I reply - “you hurt me by doing xxxx”. They reply " I didn’t think I did anything wrong".

Until they understand what they have done they do not ask for forgiveness.

Same with God. Ask for forgiveness and He will grant it since He is merciful. Will he grant it if you do not ask?
 
I guess I still don’t get your point.
If someone has sinned against you, you should forgive them even if they don’t ask for forgiveness, or even if they don’t think they need to be forgiven.

“. . .forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

How can WE pray for forgiveness if we haven’t forgiven others? Remember the story of the unjust steward, whose master remitted HIS debt and then went out and imprisoned somebody who owed money to him. The master found out and imprisoned that unjust steward for his lack of mercy.

The earlier points of reconciliation/ forgiveness were good.

I wasn’t (and wouldn’t) equate myself with God. The reason that forgive others is because God wants us to forgive our fellow man.

Here’s the thing, though. If a person doesn’t THINK he sinned, then he’s not going to ask for forgiveness. Read the catechism–for a sin to be committed requires full knowledge that it IS a sin, a grave matter (for mortal) or a lesser matter (for venial) and full consent of the will.

Of course, we are required as Catholic Christians to have a fair knowledge of what is sinful, a good conscience, use of the sacraments, etc., so it would be pretty hard for us to, say, steal somebody’s lawnmower and NOT think it was a sin.

About that forgiveness? God WILL grant it. You DO have to ask for it, and you are only going to ask if you know it was a sin. So, if you KNOW and don’t ask, you won’t be forgiven. If you DON’T know and therefore don’t ask, you aren’t going to be held responsible in the same way that someone with complete knowledge would be. Obviously, you can’t NOT KNOW it was a sin and ask for forgiveness; all that leaves is KNOWING AND ASKING.

Clear?
 
Tantum ergo:
I guess I still don’t get your point.
If someone has sinned against you, you should forgive them even if they don’t ask for forgiveness, or even if they don’t think they need to be forgiven.

“. . .forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

How can WE pray for forgiveness if we haven’t forgiven others? Remember the story of the unjust steward, whose master remitted HIS debt and then went out and imprisoned somebody who owed money to him. The master found out and imprisoned that unjust steward for his lack of mercy.

The earlier points of reconciliation/ forgiveness were good.

I wasn’t (and wouldn’t) equate myself with God. The reason that forgive others is because God wants us to forgive our fellow man.

Here’s the thing, though. If a person doesn’t THINK he sinned, then he’s not going to ask for forgiveness. Read the catechism–for a sin to be committed requires full knowledge that it IS a sin, a grave matter (for mortal) or a lesser matter (for venial) and full consent of the will.

Of course, we are required as Catholic Christians to have a fair knowledge of what is sinful, a good conscience, use of the sacraments, etc., so it would be pretty hard for us to, say, steal somebody’s lawnmower and NOT think it was a sin.

About that forgiveness? God WILL grant it. You DO have to ask for it, and you are only going to ask if you know it was a sin. So, if you KNOW and don’t ask, you won’t be forgiven. If you DON’T know and therefore don’t ask, you aren’t going to be held responsible in the same way that someone with complete knowledge would be. Obviously, you can’t NOT KNOW it was a sin and ask for forgiveness; all that leaves is KNOWING AND ASKING.

Clear?
Click to expand...


I think we are on the same page. If the repentent thief had not asked Jesus for forgiveness would he be in paradise with Him? So the duty is incumbent on the one who has transgressed. My earlier point said we will not hold it against him, or make it a big issue, (by ignoring it) but that is not really forgiving. Forgiving is an act. It betters the relationship if both participate. Helps both the forgiver and the forgivee.

There is a huge difference between the following.
  1. I say “I am a thief. I stole from you. I am sorry and will repay you. Please forgive me.” You say “I forgive you. Repay me and let’s move forward.”
  2. I say nothing and you say “Let’s just move forward.”
What’s missing in #2?
 
40.png
pat:
So forgiveness is unconditional It is *reconciliation *that is conditioned by asking for forgiveness.
Click to expand...
In a manner of speaking, yes.
A: You stole my bike.
B: Please forgive me – but I’m keeping the bike.
A: You’re forgiven because I’m giving forgiveness unconditionally.

Is that a reconciliation or cheap grace or something else?
Click to expand...
Forgiveness is necessary. We have to remember that we forgive for our own good more than the good of others. By forgiving, we do not allow any more hurt to occur in the Body of Christ.

However, the fact that the one asking for forgiveness does not want to give back the bike indicates that this person does not truly realize, or want to realize, the hurt they have created. They stole someone else’s property. Reconciliation here would be difficult because true repentence has not occurred.

When we are truly sorry for what we have done, we want to make it right. We are willing to do something, (act of contrition) to show we are really sorry.
 
“Unconditional Love” and “unconditional forgiveness” are NOT biblical phrases as many people are decieved into thinking. They are terms created by those who would like to see a terms like these in the bible.

This biblical passage should help you understand how to forgive and love your neighbor as yourself, though you may have to still punish your neighbor.

**NAB LEVITICUS 19:17 **

"You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove your fellow man, do not incur sin because of him. Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

I remember when the Holy Father went to prison to forgive the man who tried to kill him. The man did not even ask for forgiveness. I asked my friend why the Pope did not have the man over to the Vatican for dinner to forgive him. My friend said, “The Pope is forgiving the man! He is not letting him out of prison!”

Jesus has a forgiving loving forgiving heart. This does not mean that He will not burn people in hell.

NAB MATTHEW 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NAB REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

George Bush should go to prison to forgive, not pardon, a few death row inmates. Then the Pope could see that he is a forgiving man the same as the Pope is a forgiving man.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Steve wrote: I remember when the Holy Father went to prison to forgive the man who tried to kill him. The man did not even ask for forgiveness. I asked my friend why the Pope did not have the man over to the Vatican for dinner to forgive him. My friend said, “The Pope is forgiving the man! He is not letting him out of prison!”
Click to expand...
This is wrong on two points: The Pope forgave his assassin as soon as he regained consciousness in the hospital. Mehmet Ali Agca was sentenced to life and the Pope *intervened *with the Italian government for a pardon which was obtained. Agca was transported to Turkey to continue serving a prison sentence from an earlier murder and other crimes.

Agca may be released soon. Certain prisoners in Turkey who have served over 20 years of a life sentence have already been released. Acga has given contradictory accounts of how he came to attempt to kill the Holy Father, and the details in these accounts lack any corroboration.
 
40.png
pat:
This is wrong on two points: The Pope forgave his assassin as soon as he regained consciousness in the hospital. Mehmet Ali Agca was sentenced to life and the Pope *intervened *with the Italian government for a pardon which was obtained. Agca was transported to Turkey to continue serving a prison sentence from an earlier murder and other crimes.

Agca may be released soon. Certain prisoners in Turkey who have served over 20 years of a life sentence have already been released. Acga has given contradictory accounts of how he came to attempt to kill the Holy Father, and the details in these accounts lack any corroboration.
Click to expand...
I think Agca served about a twenty year punishment in Itialian prisons before being transfered to a prison in Turkey. Is that about right? I remember the the Pope intervening with the Italian government for the man only a few years back.

The point is that the Pope being known around the world for his forgiveness to the man had nothing to do with whether the man was being punished or not being punished. It was that the Pope did not hold a grudge or wish vengence upon the man.

The Pope wants Italian Police and Italian Courts to protect him and Vatican treasures. Otherwise he, as the leader of a soverign nation (Vatican City), would ask Italian Police to leave. So in the Popes actions we see how to forgive those who harm us though we still use police and court punishment to protect ourselves.

Do we agree?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
I found it. Pope John Paul II “publically forgave” Mehmet Ali Agca three days after the shooting, according to the following link at CNN. Mehmet Ali Agca was not released from Italian prison until June of 2000 according to the CNN link. Mehmet Ali Agca was punished for nineteen years for the attempted killing of Pope John Paul II.

cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/06/13/pope.gunman.03/

So the term “forgiven”, publically used by the Pope, does not mean being released from prison.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top