Is good defined in terms of God, or is it an independent standard?

[bquinnan]

My sons and I were having a discussion, and while we all agree that God is good, we had trouble with the question of how good is defined. For example, when we say that God is good, are we saying that God is good according to a standard of good that exists apart from Him? (This seems highly problematic to me as I write it out, as we believe that nothing exists apart from Him.) Does God will things because they are good, or is whatever He wills automatically good, because His will makes it so? That would make the statement “God is good” redundant, we are defining good as whatever He happens to will.

This led to a couple of secondary questions – first, does God have free will? It would seem to me that He does, as otherwise we would be saying that something is impossible for Him, and in fact, that we are capable of something that He is not. However, one of my sons was puzzled about how God could have free will if the decisions He makes are always going to conform to His nature, which is to choose the greatest good. Then there was the question of whether God is incapable of evil because, either a) no act can be evil if it is done by God, or because b) He would never choose something that was evil due to His nature. Of course, this assumes that good or evil can be determined in some way other than their relationship to God’s will.

Anyway, does anyone know of any good Catholic resources on these questions? Has St. Thomas Aquinas addressed this somewhere, perhaps?

 

[omgriley]

My sons and I were having a discussion, and while we all agree that God is good, we had trouble with the question of how good is defined. For example, when we say that God is good, are we saying that God is good according to a standard of good that exists apart from Him? (This seems highly problematic to me as I write it out, as we believe that nothing exists apart from Him.) Does God will things because they are good, or is whatever He wills automatically good, because His will makes it so? That would make the statement “God is good” redundant, we are defining good as whatever He happens to will.

The fact that we refer to God as good is merely our limited way of making sense of Him. In the end, He is the standard. All things that are in Him are good, not the other way around. In another sense, “Good” is just that which a particular thing’s nature is ordered toward. Because in our nature we are ordered towards God as our ultimate end, it can be said that He is Good.

This led to a couple of secondary questions – first, does God have free will? It would seem to me that He does, as otherwise we would be saying that something is impossible for Him, and in fact, that we are capable of something that He is not. However, one of my sons was puzzled about how God could have free will if the decisions He makes are always going to conform to His nature, which is to choose the greatest good. Then there was the question of whether God is incapable of evil because, either a) no act can be evil if it is done by God, or because b) He would never choose something that was evil due to His nature. Of course, this assumes that good or evil can be determined in some way other than their relationship to God’s will.

This can be a very confusing topic. When we talk about God we have to realize that we’re dealing with Someone whom we cannot fully comprehend. His Thoughts are not our thoughts; His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). When we attribute character traits to Him, we have to remember that this only a way of making sense of Him. After all, He doesn’t have anything that can be attributed to Him, because that would entail the possibility of something being detracted from Him. Since He is unchangeable, this wouldn’t work.

In any event, to ask if God could commit an evil act is no different than asking if He could make a square circle, or build a boulder too heavy for Him to lift. These are logical absurdities. The fact that they can be strung together in a sentence just proves they’re word salads. Just as there is no such thing as a married bachelor, so there can be no such thing as an evil act committed by God.

This doesn’t box God in, however. It’s just contrary to who and what He is.

Also, as a side note, having a Free Will and Fixed Will are not inconsistent with each other. For example, if when we die we go to Heaven (God willing) our wills will forever be fixed on God. We will be able to choose which good acts we’d like to perform, but we won’t be able to do any evil. The same as if we were in Hell. Our wills would forever be fixed against God. We won’t be able to do any good acts -only evil. This also partly explains why the bad angels cannot repent and why Eternal Punishment is eternal.

For more information, and a better understanding of this topic, I suggest you read Edward Feser’s book Aquinas: A Beginner’s Guide and also check out CA’s Jimmy Akin. He deals with this subject exquisitely.

 

[Peter_J]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTd1cLeGBGM&t=110s

Same basic principle, just insert God and the word goodness

 

[Richca]

My sons and I were having a discussion, and while we all agree that God is good, we had trouble with the question of how good is defined. For example, when we say that God is good, are we saying that God is good according to a standard of good that exists apart from Him?

No. If God was good according to some standard that exists apart from him, God wouldn’t be God or the only God but there would seem to be another being besides God which makes God to be good. God is God because he is the first and supreme being from whom whatever else exists apart from God have their being and goodness. God is being itself and goodness itself. God is his own being or existence and goodness. He is the source of the being and goodness found in creatures or things that exist apart from God. Creatures participate in being and goodness as they are caused by God who is essential or absolute being and goodness.

This led to a couple of secondary questions – first, does God have free will?

 

[bquinnan]

Yes, you can start by reading the first part of his summa theologica which can be found online. The first part of the summa treats of the nature of God. For example, question 6 concerns The Goodness of God. Question 19 is about The will of God where in you will find an article concerning whether God has free will or not.

Thanks – I will check this out.

Another question I’ve been thinking about is whether it is just our good fortune that God happens to be an all-loving being that desires the very best for us, as opposed to a hypothetical god that might have – in some imaginary reality – been the first cause of things and uncaused itself but, for whatever reason, desired to create us only to watch us suffer throughout eternity, never to find peace or lasting joy. If such a god had existed rather than the God that is, would our miserable existence of eternal suffering be “good” simply because this god had willed it and had been the cause of all things? Or is such a hypothetical god inconceivable – does being the first cause of all things, infinitely knowing and infinitely able to create existence from nothing necessarily imply a loving God?