Is Grace buying a service?

[fhansen]

fhansen # 13
after sending my last post I have now read your one on merit.

You have given me a very solid reply. I need to think, meditate and pray about your posts.

To me this is CAF at its best.
I had a problem, which confused me. I started a thread here, and got many replies. Some I felt did not answer my query, some I did not understand, and some, like yours, gave me insight.

I still feel my query was not answered fully, maybe it is impossible to do this, as I lack capacity to say exactly what my concern is and have not really expressed my difficulty.

The question remains:
If grace is a free gift of God, given without our merit (prevenient or antecedent grace) are we expected to do good actions in return?

I would say on balance ‘No’. Grace is a free gift.

But God expects us to know, love and serve him.

This is reflected in the Shema:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength. (Deut. 6:4-5 NAB)

The purpose of grace is to justify and ultimately save us. It justifies us, but then demands that we continue to walk in and grow in that justice, with the time and opportunities and gifts given. The Parable of the Talents describes this whole dynamic well. God seeks to draw us into ever increasing willingness to choose the right thing, to choose Him. IOW, are wills are the wildcard, and the prize so to speak. As they choose rightly, our justice increases.

The shema is both a demand, and the most incredibly valuable gift that God seeks to give us. We only need to accept-or not. If we don’t choose to love we lose, because we miss out. Fortunately God is patient and kind in dealing with and working in us, not wanting any to perish, wanting all to enter and experience His kingdom of love.

 

[Darryl_B]

Would it be right to say that sanctifying grace pertains to original sin? (Particularly with regard to Trent).

Would it be right to say that God has given all men sufficient grace for each individual to accept or walk away from salvation?

 

[NoelFitz]

I am very grateful to all who are contributing to this thread. I appreciate very much the expertise, courtesy and interest shown.

Unfortunately I lack knowledge and may not express myself clearly, and fail to grasp replies fully.

First of all I consider that all of us here are faithful Catholics trying to get deeper insight into our religion, and all of us accept this. Some of us (e.g. me) may not fully grasp our faith, but we want to remain inside the broad spectrum of Catholicism. Our religion is a ‘both and’ religion, and also there are extremes on different sides, which we should try to avoid.

I want to answer all who have gone to the trouble to help me resolve my concern, but in doing this I may not understand fully contributions, so apologies to all who feel I have misunderstood them.

I think many replies consider grace as actual grace, I believe other types of grace exist, especially sanctifying grace.

 

[NoelFitz]

Would it be right to say that sanctifying grace pertains to original sin? (Particularly with regard to Trent).

Would it be right to say that God has given all men sufficient grace for each individual to accept or walk away from salvation?

Darryl_B,
I would disagree with your first point. If anything baptismal grace refers to original sin.

I do not think God gives anyone grace to walk away, but even though God is free I think it is now accepted that everyone is given sufficient grace to be saved. In the past this was not so and ‘extra ecclesia nulla salus’ was interpreted narrowly.

 

[NoelFitz]

The purpose of grace is to justify and ultimately save us. It justifies us, but then demands that we continue to walk in and grow in that justice, with the time and opportunities and gifts given.

In school over 65 years ago I think I learned that grace is a supernatural gift that sanctifies us and allows us to do meritorious acts. I feel you are considering grace as actual grace only (i.e. allows us to do good acts), but ignoring the fact that grace sanctifies us. I claim grace per se sanctifies us.

I gave the example of baptism. But in Communion does the grace of the sacrament make us holy or are we only made holy by doing good acts after receiving communion?

You seem to be advocating, as the Jews did, a covenant theology, where there is an agreed exchange, God gives us grace and we respond. I would prefer to think God gives us grace freely, without strings, and that makes us holy.

You claimed there is a free choice when grace is given, so grace is a free gift. But if I buy a car, and take delivery, I am obliged to pay. One could say I am free not to pay, but if I do not I will probably end up in court and be judged guilty. Do you see this is how God acts? He gives grace, but with it comes an obligation to do good, if we don’t we are judged. We are not really free to ignore the grace. It is what we call Hobson’s choice.

We should do good and serve God, because he is good, not to sanctify ourselves, gain heaven, avoid hell or even to repay his gift to us. This is perfect love, the ideal.

 

[goout]

…
You seem to be advocating, as the Jews did, a covenant theology, where there is an agreed exchange, God gives us grace and we respond. I would prefer to think God gives us grace freely, without strings, and that makes us holy.
…

We are living within the New Covenant.
Scott Hahn on the difference between contracts and covenants:

contracts exchange property, covenants exchange persons.

Contracts involve you promising to pay a certain sum of money and the person you’re contracting with to deliver you a certain product or service.

Covenants are much different. When people enter into a covenant, they say: “I am yours and you are mine.” In a contract, you exchange something you have - a skill, a piece of property, money. In a covenant you exchange your very being, you give your very self to another person.
Marriage is a covenant. The man swears an oath to the woman, “I’m yours forever.” The woman swears an oath to the man, “I’m yours forever.”

We should do good and serve God, because he is good, not to sanctify ourselves, gain heaven, avoid hell or even to repay his gift to us. This is perfect love, the ideal.

To love is to will the good of another, for the sake of the other.

 

[NoelFitz]

Goout,
thanks for your post.
I am not a great admirer of Scott Hahn.
The definitions of contract and covenant seem to me arbitrary.
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives as the principal definition of contract ‘a written or spoken agreement intended to be enforceable by law’.

For covenant it gives:
1 a solemn agreement. Theology
an agreement held to be the basis of a relationship of commitment with God.
2 Law
a formal agreement or contract in writing, especially one undertaking to make regular payments to a charity.

 

[Wesrock]

Whatever definition Oxford gives ‘covenant’, the point is that our relationship with God is an “I am yours and you are mine” relationship, not as ownership, but as mutual self giving. It’s not a "you give me that and I’ll give you this " relationship.

 

[jcrichton]

O_Mlly
Thanks for your reply.
I regret if I was not clear and misunderstood you. Sincerest apologies. I think your post was excellent, being inspiring and uplifting, but I felt it did not answer my query, possibly since I was not clear.

If God gives grace to us and expects us to give a return, it is not a free gift. God is purchasing with his giving our required response. I think this is as clear as I can make myself.

I regret if I misunderstood you. I felt you were discussing* salvation* while I was asking about grace.

I hope you will continue to contribute to this thread.

Hi, Noel!
…I think that part of the problem we have is that we view God’s Economy in ours…

Scriptures tells us that while we were yet sinners God Sent His Son so that we may Live… there’s nothing that we can do in exchange for this Grace… we are Justified in Christ even before we acknowledge ourselves as sinners and even before we acknowledge God’s Righteousness… there’s no negotiation here!

Since we are Justified in Christ Jesus, God’s Grace Comes upon us through the Church (Oral and Written Tradition, Sacraments, Doctrine). As we are Justified in Christ we enter God’s Economy and we must, if we desire to remain in His Fellowship, react: change from unrighteousness to righteousness ("…be holy for I AM Holy…")–it is here where you find the exchange: old life (wicked and immersed in nothingness) traded for a new Life (righteous and productive. Remember Jesus’s observance of the old widow who offered two coins of very small value at the Temple? Her gift was greater than others because she entered God’s Economy–she relied on His Grace and Providence even when she would be found lacking by man.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

jcrichton,
many thanks for a brilliant, clear and positive reply.

You answer exactly my query.

I was getting perturbed that the posts, recently so positive, did not focus on my specific query. But you hit the nail on the head.

I felt guilty that my replies were a little bit critical and it looked as if I would not get an answer that resolved my problem.

I put it down to my inability to express my concern.

But you have answered me in a wonderful sound Catholic way.

Not only is God great, but so is CAF, all others here and you.

 

[PJM]

I read They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24 NAB). Recently we seem to be are inundated in some circles with commemorations of Luther, and some of us Catholics may seem a bit Protestant. But I have a query.

If grace is a free gift of God, given without our merit (prevenient or antecedent grace) are we expected to do good actions in return? If so is grace not then the purchased of a service from us?

I would like to know. Thanks!

GREAT Q! Thanks!

Grace is a NOT a “payment” for good works, which James chapter 2 makes precisely clear are necessary {BUT NOT essential}; rather they are the REWARD of good works.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 John 4:7
Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God.

Doing “good works” is God’s expectation for every man. Further it is a COMMAND, not merely a request. BUT we Catholics KNOW that we CANNOT “work” our way into heaven. Amen

 

[NoelFitz]

PJM
thanks.
I appreciate your reply.
I had felt I was negative not accepting fully as a reply to me the posts here. But then I got a comprehensive answer.
Your reply is also ‘bang on’.
So perhaps I was right to be so picky.

 

[PJM]

PJM
thanks.
I appreciate your reply.
I had felt I was negative not accepting fully as a reply to me the posts here. But then I got a comprehensive answer.
Your reply is also ‘bang on’.
So perhaps I was right to be so picky.

You’re welcome!

And Continued Blessings

Patrick

 

[jcrichton]

jcrichton,
many thanks for a brilliant, clear and positive reply.

You answer exactly my query.

I was getting perturbed that the posts, recently so positive, did not focus on my specific query. But you hit the nail on the head.

I felt guilty that my replies were a little bit critical and it looked as if I would not get an answer that resolved my problem.

I put it down to my inability to express my concern.

But you have answered me in a wonderful sound Catholic way.

Not only is God great, but so is CAF, all others here and you.

Hi, Noel!
…thanks for your generosity!

You are so correct! God is Great!

…in His Salvific Plan He set everything in motion at the very Beginning as He Chose Salvation for us in Christ; yet, since we are made in His Image and Likeness our Spirit calls for Clarity and Fellowship–in His Greatness God has made it so that we can discover the Truth in Fellowship with the Body of Christ (the Church)… as we help others grow in the Faith we grow along with our Brethren… God is Great!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fisherman_carl]

1. God’s love is unconditional. We can not do anything to make God love us any more or less than He does. For God so loved the world… John 3:16.
2. He sent his Son so that whoever believes in him will have eternal life. He sent his Son to save us, not to condemn us. - - John 3:16-17
3. God paints himself as a Father who waits with open arms for his prodigal sons and daughters to return to him. And then rejoices more over that when they do return then those who have no need of repentance.
4. Grace is a gift, through faith and not by works. Eph 2:8-9.
5. The Church teaches we can not earn or merit being in a state of grace. The Church teaches to go to heaven we must have sanctifying grace. And it is a gift through Baptism or the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That is why the Church is not classified as a pelagian Church. Because Grace is needed for salvation. We can not save ourselves. We can not earn forgiveness.
6. If we reject God and his grace God can not work with us. We are like a tree that refuses to bear fruit. Which is really love.
7. We don’t need to be perfect to avoid going to hell. The Church teaches to die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin leads to hell. However, if you have only venial sin it does not disqualify you from heaven as long as you have sanctifying grace. And sanctifying grace cannot be earned.
8. While you don’t need to be perfect to avoid hell, you do need to be perfectly free of all attachment to sin in order to enter heaven. That is why purgatory exists, to prepare us to enter heaven.

As far as the charge that because God expects something of us after we receive that gift of grace, that this somehow invalidates it as a gift. Consider if a father gives his son a car. It is a gift. However, If the son abuses that gift, it can be taken away from him. If the son drives recklessly endangering others he can lose that car. But, if the son is trustworthy with that gift then the Father can entrust him with it and even more. Now consider how the gift of grace is even greater than a car, a mere physical possession. Consider how much more that God’s grace can do. Shouldn’t God expect his grace to not return to him void? It has the power to change men’s hearts. Should not a good father desire his children to do good and not evil?

 

[NoelFitz]

Fisherman Carl,
thanks for another brilliant reply. After reading it one might ask “what was all the fuss about?”, as your clear reply clarifies and answers my concerns. But initially several posts in this thread were either off-topic or did not satisfy me.

 

[Nita]

If grace is a free gift of God, given without our merit (prevenient or antecedent grace) are we expected to do good actions in return? If so is grace not then the purchased of a service from us?

I would like to know. Thanks!

Are you asking if grace is given to us to purchase service from us? If so, the answer is no.

When we purchase we give money to get a product the seller already has, or is capable of producing, on his own (eg.material; service). The purchaser’s purpose is to get something for himself.
With God’s gift, He gives us grace (money) to aid us in producing actions we’d be incapable of producing on our own. (Even an ordinary action will have a spiritual “quality” level about it that would not be there without grace.) God’s purpose is not to get something for Himself but to give something to us.