Is Greece part of the West or East?

[Formosus]

mesopotamia is considered the cradle of western civilization too. so to say that because greece is also considererd a cradle of western civilization doesn’t make them western. for one, their language and culture is more akin to the eastern mediterranian peoples. genetically, they are closer to turks then say the spanish or central italians. during the roman empire they were part of the east. the greek language is closer to armenian than western languages.http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/ieorigins/nature.jpg

The greek language is in the same language as nearly all the western European languages (Indo-European). The Turks and other Eastern mediteranean peoples are either semitic lingusitically or turkish (which originates in central asia). I also question your assertion of genetic similarity on a general level.

Culturally, Greece is Eastern. I think its too simplistic to have West/East dichotomy as far as culture goes. One should include continent as well to better clarify.

 

[Emil3]

Dear friends:
I have never heard of the phrase–“mesopotemia was the cradle of western civilization”.

Greek is a Indo-European ‘root tongue’ and Armenian is totally in a linguistic position of being all by itself.

When the Roman Empire was initially split in the 300s, actually having a Caesar & an Augustus in both parts----one can readily argue that this marked a major step in identifying what unalterably would become forever the demarkation of what was East & what was West. Additionally, it already planted the seeds for Ecclesiastical disunion with the Greeks being the most ‘influential race’ within the East. This, even though the time of Constantine had not yet come. To put it very crudely, it is as though some higher authority had made a dividing line between what had been a rather unified ‘gang turf’ and the most vocal/ready to take over ‘gang’ would take over the newly created halves. Though my analogy is crude, if one looks at a map of the period, with a dividing line splitting the Adriatic Sea and on upwards through the European land mass, this marked a division with which we live with today; a religious, political, & cultural divide.

When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Empire and subsequently moved the capitol to Constantinople—(the new Rome)—the seeds had thoroughly flowered. The Greeks immediately took advantage of this situation in attempting to be the primary controlling agents of the East; what was seen as building a new Greek-controlled Empire upon the bones of the Roman empire in the East. The Catholic Encyclopoedia itself refers to the first 200 yrs or so after Constantine’s momentous move, as a primarily Roman period of influence re culture/language/etc., then giving way to a Byzantine/Greek Empire!

Need I point out that along with the 200 yr slow but, inevitable with each passing year change, the emphasis was placed to make the Greek See of Contantinople, the primary seat in the EAST, slowly diminishing the See of Alexandria which had been of much greater distinction & influence.

Why does the Orthodox Church have Constantine the Great revered as a Saint? – A man who literally committed murder? --To put it simply because he gave the Eastern world—(led by the Greeks as the primary Eastern influence)—the gift that does not stop giving; the chance to inherit an Empire which they had not built, elevate a rather minor Sea, and eventually seek to be the political & religious masters of what had been one-half of the Roman Empire.

As I stated in my initial post, the HISTORICAL facts of what we now face and whether Greeks are Western or Eastern may be a bit ‘touchy’ but–yes–Greece is most certainly part of the EAST.

 

[Formosus]

I hope you realize St. Constantine is venerated in the Roman church as well. I think your greek “conspiracy” is extremely far fetched. There was no vast greek plans for domination involved in moving the Capital east. The majority of Roman citizens lived in the eastern half of the Empire, Constantinople was in a much more defendable position, and the Eastern empire had much more money then the Western empire. Not to mention that Rome was founded as a pagan city. Constantine desired to found a new city on the basis of Christianity and the site of Byzantium was a perfect location for it. Why do you quote the (I assume) old Catholic Encylopedia which is quite biased. Never mind the fact that 200 years after the fall of the western empire, the culture changed to a frankish/germanic one rather then a Roman culture. Its a little unfair to criticize the Eastern empire for becomming more greek in culture when the remenants of the west changed culturally as well.

 

[Emil3]

I hope you realize St. Constantine is venerated in the Roman church as well. I think your greek “conspiracy” is extremely far fetched. There was no vast greek plans for domination involved in moving the Capital east. The majority of Roman citizens lived in the eastern half of the Empire, Constantinople was in a much more defendable position, and the Eastern empire had much more money then the Western empire. Not to mention that Rome was founded as a pagan city. Constantine desired to found a new city on the basis of Christianity and the site of Byzantium was a perfect location for it. Why do you quote the (I assume) old Catholic Encylopedia which is quite biased. Never mind the fact that 200 years after the fall of the western empire, the culture changed to a frankish/germanic one rather then a Roman culture. Its a little unfair to criticize the Eastern empire for becomming more greek in culture when the remenants of the west changed culturally as well.

 

[Holly3278]

Most Greeks are Orthodox, Greek Orthodox to be specific, so I’d have to say that they are mostly a part of Eastern Christianity.

 

[Emil3]

Is Constantine really venerated in the Roman Catholic Church?—are you sure?

Look at my postings dear friends; never a mention of a Greek conspiracy to move the capitol!–They just took full advantage of it?!

Thank God for the Frankish/Germano rise in the West; they embraced the Roman/Central Italian legacy as their own. While the East became more & more ‘BYZANTINE’ in nature, the WEST was cultivating the seeds of modern Europe and protecting/assisting the Pope—Primate of the Church of Christ!

PLEASE do not misquote in your attempt to disguise the facts of History----Thank you.

 

[Formosus]

Is Constantine really venerated in the Roman Catholic Church?—are you sure?

Look at my postings dear friends; never a mention of a Greek conspiracy to move the capitol!–They just took full advantage of it?!

Thank God for the Frankish/Germano rise in the West; they embraced the Roman/Central Italian legacy as their own. While the East became more & more ‘BYZANTINE’ in nature,** the WEST was cultivating the seeds of modern Europe and protecting/assisting the Pope—Primate of the Church of Christ! **

PLEASE do not misquote in your attempt to disguise the facts of History----Thank you.

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731

Never mind the fact that very often Western European germans defied the Pope on plenty of occasions, or that “modern European culture” is a Godless abomination that rejects the Church and the Pope. You seem to be identifying the Catholic Church specifically with a Romano cultural identity which is simply not true. The Greek East was just as Catholic as the Frankish west before the Schism. The fact remains that the Eastern Roman Empire (for all its faults) was the longest lived Christian state ever to exist and kept the Frankish west from falling to Islam.

 

[Emil3]

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731

Never mind the fact that very often Western European germans defied the Pope on plenty of occasions, or that “modern European culture” is a Godless abomination that rejects the Church and the Pope. You seem to be identifying the Catholic Church specifically with a Romano cultural identity which is simply not true. The Greek East was just as Catholic as the Frankish west before the Schism. The fact remains that the Eastern Roman Empire (for all its faults) was the longest lived Christian state ever to exist and kept the Frankish west from falling to Islam.

You do what so many attempt to do during a discussion; you entirely change the focus or frame of reference by setting up ‘straw men’ never previously discussed nor part of the subject and then knocking then down! Perhaps you forgot=====Is Greece part of the West or East?----that’s the topic. If I may be permitted a pun, your responses are typically ‘BYZANTINE’. While I would love to answer your last post, I shall not. Perhaps on another thread/topic. YES----Greece is most certainly part of the EAST!

 

[Formosus]

I am sorry for arguing over this issue, I get a little worked up over the topic of the Eastern Empire (easily my favorite thing in history to discuss).

 

[antgaria]

I am sorry for arguing over this issue, I get a little worked up over the topic of the Eastern Empire (easily my favorite thing in history to discuss).

For what it’s worth… Constantine is revered in our Church too… I believe. His vision and the markings on the shield and all that stuff, as well as his mother’s quest for the True Cross are all part of our hymns during the Feast of the Cross.

 

[Melchior]

I got into a conversation with a Eastern Rite friend and he was talking about East and West.

He said that Greece is part of the Western tradition and in the West over all. I didn’t think so–who is right?

Modern Greece and modern Greek culture is primarily Balkan with a hodge podge of western and eastern influence. Their music is mostly derived from Arab and Israeli influences as is their food. But they are functionally more Blakan in outlook and culture than anything else.

After 400 years of oppression under Turkish rule, other than language, there is really very little greek left in Greece - that is to say genuine Hellenism. Hellenism was preserved by the west (England and France and even the United States for a time) during those 400 years. Modern Greeks connection to it is more historic and emotional than anything else. It is certainly not culturally the old Greece.