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Robert_Sock
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My personal opinion is that free enterprise promotes greed, and that a strong government is needed to circumvent it.
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JimG
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Why would greed be applicable only to a free market economy? All human beings, no matter the society in which they live, are subject to greed, lust, avarice, and any other temptation.
If an employee asks for a raise, is that greed? If he seeks a higher paying job, is that greed? If he decides to go into business for himself, thinking he can earn more in that way, is that greed?
If an author sells 100,000 books, receiving royalties on each one, is it greed to try to double sales to 200,000?
If a company makes a good profit one year, is it greed to reinvest the excess profit in the business? Or is it more greedy to pay the excess to stockholders, or is it less greedy to pay all the excess to employees? Is there an ethical formula dictating how profits should be used?
Is it greed to make a 5% net profit, comparable to oil companies make, or to make a 20% net profit, which many tech companies make?
If an employee asks for a raise, is that greed? If he seeks a higher paying job, is that greed? If he decides to go into business for himself, thinking he can earn more in that way, is that greed?
If an author sells 100,000 books, receiving royalties on each one, is it greed to try to double sales to 200,000?
If a company makes a good profit one year, is it greed to reinvest the excess profit in the business? Or is it more greedy to pay the excess to stockholders, or is it less greedy to pay all the excess to employees? Is there an ethical formula dictating how profits should be used?
Is it greed to make a 5% net profit, comparable to oil companies make, or to make a 20% net profit, which many tech companies make?
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Robert_Sock
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I was thinking more in line with the recent banking crisis which was supposedly caused by greed. Also the BP oil spill where greed gave way to their taking prudent precautions.
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cjkaupke
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JimG is absolutely right. Wherever there are human beings there will be greed.
A businessman may be as greedy as he likes, but in a free market he will only accumulate wealth by pleasing other people. The free market forces people to serve others. Profit is a tangible measurement of how much you have pleased your customers and your employees. If you don’t please others, no one will want to do business with you, and you will not make any money.
On the flip side, big government is a nearly foolproof way for the unscrupulous to get what they want without serving others. Government can use force to make people do what they don’t want to do, and so the government doesn’t have to please others to make money. Just look at East Germany or the USSR for examples of how government allows people’s greed to run wild.
And government regulations, no matter how well-intentioned they are, never change human nature. No law or government program will change the way human nature operates, despite many attempts throughout history to do so.
A businessman may be as greedy as he likes, but in a free market he will only accumulate wealth by pleasing other people. The free market forces people to serve others. Profit is a tangible measurement of how much you have pleased your customers and your employees. If you don’t please others, no one will want to do business with you, and you will not make any money.
On the flip side, big government is a nearly foolproof way for the unscrupulous to get what they want without serving others. Government can use force to make people do what they don’t want to do, and so the government doesn’t have to please others to make money. Just look at East Germany or the USSR for examples of how government allows people’s greed to run wild.
And government regulations, no matter how well-intentioned they are, never change human nature. No law or government program will change the way human nature operates, despite many attempts throughout history to do so.
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cjkaupke
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Also, as you yourself said, greed was “supposedly” the cause of the financial crisis. But can you prove that? Can you measure greed on a graph? Is it quantifiable?
It’s easy to throw around meaningless, emotionally-charged words like “greed” as explanations for complicated things, because such words don’t require any facts to back them up.
It’s easy to throw around meaningless, emotionally-charged words like “greed” as explanations for complicated things, because such words don’t require any facts to back them up.
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SamH
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Because no government has ever been greedy?
Today, wanting someone else’s money is called ‘need,’ wanting to keep your own money is called ‘greed,’ and ‘compassion’ is when politicians arrange the transfer.
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JimG
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Well then, you are not speaking so much of greed as about the regulation of financial markets and oil drillers.
While one could attribute the busting of the housing market bubble to the big investment banks selling unsustainable home mortgage derivative products, there is a lot of blame to go around. First the bubble had to exist, and the Federal Reserve bears a lot of blame for that. There was also a lot of loose underwriting practices. And yes, there was also greed on the part of many individual homeowners who couldn’t resist continually refinancing their home mortgages to extract more and more cash from their homes until the bubble burst. (I had a co-worker tell me once during the run-up of the bubble that he had made more money refinancing his house than he had in his job.)
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Country_Gal
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My personal opinion is that greed is present in any system. The profit motive is a strong one and the more government can get out of the way and allow industrious, motivated people to create wealth, the better.
Government is needed to protect the environment, health and safety, infrastructure, and protecting basic human rights, for sure. But free enterprise creates more wealth and prosperity.
Government is needed to protect the environment, health and safety, infrastructure, and protecting basic human rights, for sure. But free enterprise creates more wealth and prosperity.
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SamH
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You realize that government inspectors approved every step of the drilling process right?
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JRTJ
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Greed is certainly present in the free enterprise system, in the same way as it is present in non-free enterprise systems.
The danger you are getting into is thinking that a strong government will circumvent that greed you say is inherent to the free enterprise system. While I strongly disagree with the notion that greed is inherent to the free enterprise system, I also think it is rather naive on your part to think that a strong government will be able to limit said greed in the markets.
After all, what makes you think that those running the ‘strong government’ in question are not subject to greed, and do not have the tendency to be greedy? They are humans much as those running free enterprises and, as such, are subject to greed. You will find greedy business leaders and non-greedy politicans, but you will also encounter greedy politicans and non-greedy businessmen.
Moreover, if we define greed as wanting to make more money, I don’t see where the problem is within the context of free enterprise. Surely if your business will make more money, you will be able to hire more people, hence lifting them out of poverty or unemployment. You will also pay more taxes to the State which will then (allegedly) devote them - albeit partially - to the poor.
If a politician is greedy for power and money, on the other hand, it runs counter to his calling, which is to serve the common good. If a politician thinks more about accumulating power and money rather than serving the people, then greed is definitely harmful. Remember - politicans are not elected to accumulate power and money. On the flipside, business leaders are there to make money and not to serve the people. In their case, I would say that the want to accumulate money is not inherently sinful as is the case for a politician. Furthermore, if their making money will help people by giving them the means to live a dignified life through work, I would say it is definitely a good thing. Thus it is not an inherent problem for free enterprise. Obviously, we all know it has caused problems within free markets in recent years but it has caused problems throughout history across all sorts of economic and political systems.
Objectively, greed has been much more harmful within a socialist, communist, or nazist context (ie strong government) than it has been within the free enterprise system.And history is a strong testimony to this argument.
Ultimately, people with money have a moral obligation to give to charity according to Natural Law. But the State should have, in my humble opinion, nothing to do with this. The state will never be able to counter that greed which is inherent to human nature and present in any kind of economic system.
I hope I have answered your query to your satisfaction, and I hope I have been respectful in tone in so doing.
God bless
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JRTJ
Guest
Agree wholeheartedly
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dshix
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Yet another thread in which Robert attempts to get us all to believe that bigger government is better.
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JimG
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I would also note continuing reports of the Vietnamese Communist government seizing property owned by the Church. That’s governmental greed exacerbated by an ideology that sees the government as controlling everything.
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Robert_Sock
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What about the greed in exploiting workers; such as large corporations having menial assembly work sent to third-world countries where the needy workers are certainly exploited?
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Country_Gal
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Do you make a point of paying a higher price for domestically produced goods?
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stinkcat_14
Guest
Actually I was talking with a friend today about a college president who is under investigation for lavish spending, i.e. when he travels he stays in $800 a night hotels. It is the third university that has investigated him for these types of issues. So clearly greed is not limited to free enterprise. Although if greed were a problem, I might be more attracted to banking than to running soup kitchens.
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St_Francis
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Many would say that without those jobs, poor as they are by our standards, those people would live in extreme poverty and maybe even they or their children would starve to death.
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ClearWater
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I voted “yes”. However, I wished I could add that no matter if you had a socialist, or communist system, greed would continue to be a problem, since it’s a human problem, due to our fallen nature!
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Robert_Sock
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I have nothing against large corporations sending work to third-world countries, but its the exploitation that bothers me. Pay them fairly!
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stinkcat_14
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How does one decide what if fair? For example, a friend of mine taught at a university in Africa and he was paid about $400 per month by the university. And he was the highest paid person at that university. Was he being paid fairly?
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