Is guitar music OK at Mass?

[cspb56]

What all this comes down to is that we as individuals have different musical preferences. No one can dictate what music moves us. A good choir director will make sure the parish has a repertiore which employs different styles. I know people who are moved by tradtional music, some by contemporary and praise music, other by a combination. What makes music sacred are the words not the style, what we call classical music started out as secular and hte great composers adapted for the liturgy.

 

[Wolseley]

Isn’t that the rub? Once they are used in Mass on a regular basis, they are no longer only secular instruments. Ah well, if they are ever proscribed for Mass, we will just go to a silent Mass or acapella for all Masses.

Well, if merely being used for Mass makes it all sacred, then let’s ditch Glory and Praise and play something we can at least enjoy.

“Our Communion hymn will be number 17 on the sheet, Ich Hab Mein Hertz in Heidelberg Verloren. Everyone please join in!”

freewebs.com/grimestein/Oompah_Band_2.jpg

Ein Prosit, ein Prosit, der Gemütlichkeit…!!!"

 

[Leopard]

Not quite. There are rules to determine if a particular musical composition is suitable for liturgical use. I am not aware if there are similar rules to determine what specific musical instrumnets are or are not suitable for liturgical use. All I have seen so far on this are personal opinions.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Not quite. There are rules to determine if a particular musical composition is suitable for liturgical use. I am not aware if there are similar rules to determine what specific musical instrumnets are or are not suitable for liturgical use. All I have seen so far on this are personal opinions.

And that’s all it ever is, including the Pope’s themselves. Through the centuries, various Pope’s have mandated their own personal taste in liturgical music, while their successors would removed the mandates.

I played guitar at Mass for about 10 years. Yes, we used the Glory and Praise Hymnal, and other hymns that were in accord with the scripture readings for the day. Tt was wonderful! On of
my favorite communion hymns was Holy Is His Name, by John Michael Talbot. Does anyone have a problem with the Magnificat being sung during Communion?

Another hymn, in which people clapped their hands as they sang, was one our favorite recessional hymns, “Lord of Glory.”

I left the group and it eventually broke up. People constantly come up to me and ask that myself and the other members reform and come back, but we’re all too disconnected from it to make it happen.

My wife and myself now attend a Mass with an inept organist and choir, who sing the older liturgical hymns. Essentially, they do the singing while the people in the pews just listen and cringe.
But God bless them, its not an easy task and they’re doing their best.

Jim

 

[bjford]

Isn’t that the rub? Once they are used in Mass on a regular basis, they are no longer only secular instruments. Ah well, if they are ever proscribed for Mass, we will just go to a silent Mass or acapella for all Masses.

No, I don’t think that’s it at all. In saying that once an instrument is used for a mass it becomes a sacred instrument is ridiculous. Organ became a sacred instrument because it was almost only used in liturgies, was promoted by many popes and expert musicians, and for a thousand years was the only instrument used at Mass. Guitars have not been promoted by anyone. I think that when Musicam Sacram said “instruments generally associated to be only secular are forbidden” was referring precisely to drums and guitar, because at that time, they were just beginning to be used at mass.

 

[pnewton]

No, I don’t think that’s it at all. In saying that once an instrument is used for a mass it becomes a sacred instrument is ridiculous.

It would be ridiculous if anyone ever said that, true. But no one has. I surely didn’t. I said it is not a “secular only” instrument, which is the criteria that has been mentioned in RS and other documents.

 

[theoprofessor]

I live for the day when I never hear another guitar at Mass.

I likewise live for the day when I never hear another composition from Glory and Praise or Gather at Mass.

“OCP”, you know, stands for “Old Countercultural Pap.”

I am so happy to hear someone in agreement with my sentiments. Yes, it would be wonderful never to hear another guitar at mass. By the way, I do not recall the name of the organization but it is one in which Catholic musicians gather periodically to review liturgical music. At one conference they recommended that all Glory and Praise books be “burned”.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I live for the day when I never hear another guitar at Mass.

Should that day ever come(God forbid), you’ll be greatful to have the privilege of attending a Mass at all, music or no music.

Jim

 

[bkovacs]

NO NO NO NO!!!:

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I have been to a lot of “folk” Masses. MOst of them were not my cup of tea.

I have been to Masses where classical music and traditional hymns were accompanied by guitar. Very nice, and quite a surprise, as when I first saw the musician and his instrument, all I could was, oh no, here we go again, back to the 60s.

I have heard some of the best organ music written on some of the more pricier organs in cathedrals.

I have also heard those same organs taken over by what I call “the Nancy Faust School Of Music” format- great for the ballpark or rink, bad for liturgy (no offense to Ms. Faust).

 

[sandraladeda]

I believe there is a broad spectrum of musical instruments which are acceptable at mass. My own parish has a very active music ministry, with many different instruments represented. It would not be to the liking of everyone here at CAF, but that is not to say it is wrong, just that you may not prefer it.

In the summer, I vacation at a rural lake, and our small church has one guitar leading our music. I remember this past summer being very moved by the simplicity of the guitar with one solo voice of a young woman who sang like an angel. Vey different from my home parish.

I was away a couple weeks ago and attended mass at a beautiful basilica, over 150 years old. The organ music, the very traditional use of a cantor/music leader was so beautiful, yet very different from my usual weekly experience. I will never forget the week I spent there and that wonderful basilica.

In all three case I mention here, the music supports the liturgy.

I think it is important to separate “irreverent” or “inappropriate” from “I personally dislike” when we look at the music in our liturgies.

moo

 

[Marian_Carroll]

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[Guitar]

I have been to Masses where classical music and traditional hymns were accompanied by guitar. Very nice, and quite a surprise, as when I first saw the musician and his instrument, all I could was, oh no, here we go again, back to the 60s.

When I have my guitarist hat on, this is one of my specialties - working out workable ways of making traditional music available when the traditional resources simpy ain’t there to be had. I travel over a pretty wide area as a freelancer and believe me, most parishes I see have very little to work with.

Anyone who thinks a guitar cannot accompany (selected, suitable) traditional hymns has obviously never heard a lute, theorbo or baroque guitar play basso continuo. Or some of the very simple and very lovely competent arrangements that are out there. Guitar is not a great leading instrument and I do not use it that way - I lead with combination of cues I build into the accompaniment and my voice, and I frequently use violin, cello, oboe etc depending on the size of the job. I also play organ and woodwinds, and from the range of intruments I play and music I’ve done I’ve learned that using the resources you’ve got, rather than the ones everyone says you ought to have, requires a recognition of what support a congregation needs, an understanding of what is idiomatic for the instruments you are using and the ability to supply the first using the second. It can’t always be done, but the guitar most certainly is not the only instrument that isn’t “universally applicable”.

 

[Sarabande]

Anyone who thinks a guitar cannot accompany (selected, suitable) traditional hymns has obviously never heard a lute, theorbo or baroque guitar play basso continuo. Or some of the very simple and very lovely competent arrangements that are out there. Guitar is not a great leading instrument and I do not use it that way - I lead with combination of cues I build into the accompaniment and my voice, and I frequently use violin, cello, oboe etc depending on the size of the job. I also play organ and woodwinds, and from the range of intruments I play and music I’ve done I’ve learned that using the resources you’ve got, rather than the ones everyone says you ought to have, requires a recognition of what support a congregation needs, an understanding of what is idiomatic for the instruments you are using and the ability to supply the first using the second. It can’t always be done, but the guitar most certainly is not the only instrument that isn’t “universally applicable”.

I think one of the problems is that most of the people who play the guitar at a mass don’t have the same level of musicianship as you. You are absolutely right, all of the instruments you mentioned are incredibly beautiful and inspiring when you have talented musician behind them. But for most of the masses, the level of talent is basic strumming - nothing more. If it is the best that a parish can offer, there is no reason to criticize that parish for their liturgical music. But if they can seek out better musicians who could either play those instruments or the organ (if there is one - so many are broken in parishes) or piano, that would be even better for the parish as a whole.

 

[Guitar]

Once more, we agree!

I do get heartily tired of people equating poor playing with the instrument itself. Especially when they seem oblivious to organ playing that is the equivalent of the guitar playing they criticise, or worse.

 

[Sarabande]

Once more, we agree!

I do get heartily tired of people equating poor playing with the instrument itself. Especially when they seem oblivious to organ playing that is the equivalent of the guitar playing they criticise, or worse.

I hear you, sister!!! Poor musicianship on any instrument is equally frightening.

 

[palmas85]

I hear you, sister!!! Poor musicianship on any instrument is equally frightening.

I don’t think it is the guitar as much as the choice of music that should be the issue. The guitar for better or worse seems to be intimately acquainted with the horrific folk music type songs that got forced upon the faithful from the 60’s until now.

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t think it is the guitar as much as the choice of music that should be the issue. The guitar for better or worse seems to be intimately acquainted with the horrific folk music type songs that got forced upon the faithful from the 60’s until now.

That is very true, and many times the people who play that kind of music usually aren’t good musicians. They can’t play much more than that. Most gifted guitar musicians who I know wouldn’t play some of the “horrific” stuff that you described unless they were being paid to do so. But even then, they wouldn’t just strum it out. I am sometimes hired to sing music which is just down-right bad compositionally-speaking and taste-wise. This is for both classical and standard music in the secular and sacred worlds where I perform. But I will sing my best of it and not purposely make dog’s breakfast out of it. The people who chose it obviously liked it for some reason, so I can’t negate that. Plus, I’m getting paid to do it. Actually, this afternoon, I will be singing at a wedding in which I will have to sing a hymn that is one of the cheesiest I know, but I will sing it with as much love as I can give.

So, it is the quality of the musicianship and the quality of the composition as well. You can have an incredibly beautiful composition, but a bad musician will destroy it. A good musician, on the other hand, can often times make something out of a bad composition, even if it is still poorly composed and cheesy. I do have colleagues who would tell me that people like me will unknowingly promote bad music because we make it passable and sound decent. That might be true, but I sometimes have to do that music (if I volunteer, I can choose not to do it) and have no choice. It would be wrong of me to not play it well which would be an insult to God with the talents He has given me and an insult to the people who paid me. Besides, I’ve found that when these same people hear me do the real stuff, they are absolutely floored, so they can hear the difference in the composition and a person’s expertise. So, they end up wanting to hear more of what I’m an expert at, with some of the cheese on the side, which I can handle.

 

[Guitar]

I don’t think it is the guitar as much as the choice of music that should be the issue. The guitar for better or worse seems to be intimately acquainted with the horrific folk music type songs that got forced upon the faithful from the 60’s until now.

Inclined to agree. What is “guitar music”? Last time I heard someone lambasting “guitar music” and mentioning a particular piece by name, it is a piece any musician would have said was idiomatically “piano music”.

“Bad music I don’t like played on guitar” is not the same thing as “guitar music” although there may be some overlap.

And Sarabande, right again. I’m the same as you - within limits, if I am paid to do something and it is licit, it’s a matter of professionalism to not just strum it out (thought there are a few things where strumming is best, but there’s strumming and there’s strumming) and to make something of the material. Trouble is, when you succeed, everyone says, “I’ve never heard that sound so nice, will you play it for my [insert function here]next week?”

 

[pilgrimR]

I don’t think it is the guitar as much as the choice of music that should be the issue. The guitar for better or worse seems to be intimately acquainted with the horrific folk music type songs that got forced upon the faithful from the 60’s until now.

So perhaps we should talk about the music itself then. I saw a complaint in this thread about OCP. I am a choir director at a parish that has the OCP hymnal, so, at least for the short term, I must choose music from that hymnal for the Sunday liturgy.

How many hymns can we come up with that are good music to choose for the liturgy? It is easy enough to come up with a list of hymns that we do NOT like in the liturgy, but which ones are appropriate? For each hymn that you list here that is inappropriate, can you list one that should be used in its place?

I nominate these as appropriate:

O Sacrament Most Holy
The Supper of the Lord (Laurence Rosania)
He Is the Lord (David Haas)
I Want To Praise Your Name (Bob Hurd)

All of these turn our thoughts and hearts to our great God of all glory. All may done reverently and appropriately lead by guitar. I do not know if I would want to hear the last one accompanied by organ though!

I also nominate the following hymns as appropriate:

Holy God We Praise Thy Name
To Jesus Christ Our Sov’reign King

All of these also turn our thoughts and hearts to our great God of all glory. I do not choose them very often at the liturgies that I serve however because guitar accompaniment does not do them justice. If I feel that the assembly will sustain them, I do sparse accompaniment just to keep us on key and let the supreme instrument, the human voice, ring out triumphantly.

What do you think?