Is harboring repressed perversions within the unconscious sinful?

[St_Francis]

Thanks for coming back to this. I contend that as a result the fall, original sin, not necessarily mortal sin, resides in the unconscious. Where do the Seven Deadly Sins reside?

Original sin is washed away…but some consequences remain:

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1264

Yes, concupiscence. Concupiscence and original sin are different things.

 

[St_Francis]

I’m not sure I fully understand your distinction, but most psychologists would see the unconscious as being filled with repressed memories (usually emotional), beliefs and plenty of conflicts. (The purpose of psychoanalysis is to bring these things into awareness where they can get worked out rather easily. I’m single, 61, and I believe I could attend an orgy without getting the least bit aroused because I crushed this evil spirit of sexual lust and thus uprooted the temptation itself. This is what I prayed for and God granted it.)

So how does one know one has a repressed perversion? And what is the problem, if it is repressed?

 

[Reepicheep]

It can easily be a part of original sin. We will all need to become squeaky clean before entering Heaven with all stain of sin removed.

Well, yes. But that’s what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is for, and Purgatory. Again, how is it a sin to have impulses you’re not aware of?

 

[Reepicheep]

Defence mechanisms are so basic in psychology it amazes me that they not well accepted in Catholicism.

What makes you think they aren’t? Just because a priest says “you’re trying to excuse your own lust by accusing the woman you lust after of being lustful herself” instead of “you’re projecting your sexual impulses on someone else as a defense mechanism” doesn’t mean the priest doesn’t understand what ‘projection’ is.

Psychologists often point to repression as an unnecessary condition fueled by religion.

And do you agree with them? Why?

All I’m up to is introducing these pesky defence mechanisms to fellow Catholics.

[gentle sarcasm]Because us benighted Catholics, we don’t know about such newfangled ideas. [/gentle sarcasm]

I would not me doing this if I did not think it has something to offer to us. re-read what I wrote about defense mechanisms and see if you can use this knowledge to spot them working in us and others.

Catholicism is by far number one in my life, and it too has a lot of knowledge that seems worthy to share with psychologists, but most are not the least bit interested. Why there is not more sharing of knowledge between these two camps can be frustrating, but I’m amazed at how segregated they remain.

 

[Reepicheep]

I’ve been away from psychology for some time now, but back then, yes, psychologists often expressed their bias against religion, especially Catholicism. There was one well known psychologist that used to express his hatred of religion with the utmost vagarity. I’m surprised that you’re surprised by this.

This sounds like you’re saying “some psychologists hate religion, therefore Catholics don’t accept psychology.” I don’t think that’s valid logic.

 

[Reepicheep]

I think you guys are misunderstanding me, but I’m not sure how. I’m now a Catholic first and utmost. I love love, and love was simply not to be found in psychology. But I do borrow from psychology if it helps explain religious phenomena. Not to sound proud or anything, but I think that our becoming aware of our defense mechanisms helps us to better understand ourselves and even free ourselves from unconscious sin.

Becoming aware of the excuses we make to justify ourselves helps us to better understand ourselves and free ourselves from sin. We don’t need to resort to psychologists’ jargon to say that, nor to do it.

And ‘unconscious’ sin? It is not possible to commit an ‘unconscious’ sin. One must be aware of one’s choices in order to choose to sin. It does help to be free of unconscious impulses: but impulses are not sins.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well, yes. But that’s what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is for, and Purgatory. Again, how is it a sin to have impulses you’re not aware of?

So how does one know one has a repressed perversion? And what is the problem, if it is repressed?

The repressed perversion often enters into awareness where we either give into a sinful urge or where the perversion is denied. Take, for example, a person who is obviously aroused by watching people have sex but immediately denies it by repressing the urge. Such repressed urges play havoc within us, an unconscious conflict, and results in some form of unwanted neurotic behavior. The more we repress it, the more neurosis, and the further we are away from God.

 

[Reepicheep]

Evil? Do you believe that sin can arise from the unconscious and that we need to be on guard for it?

Sinful desires (temptations based on the Seven Deadly Sins) need to be uprooted according to the Imitation of Christ, not repressed.

Resisting a desire is not the same as repressing it. “Repressing” a desire means refusing to admit one feels that desire, not refusing to* indulge* it.

 

[Reepicheep]

I’m not sure I fully understand your distinction, but most psychologists would see the unconscious as being filled with repressed memories (usually emotional), beliefs and plenty of conflicts. (The purpose of psychoanalysis is to bring these things into awareness where they can get worked out rather easily. I’m single, 61, and I believe I could attend an orgy without getting the least bit aroused because I crushed this evil spirit of sexual lust and thus uprooted the temptation itself. This is what I prayed for and God granted it.)

I couldn’t. I have sexual impulses and can be tempted through them.
You on the other hand, sound as if you’re saying you’re too virtuous to be subject to sexual temptation. Beware of unconscious desires, Robert Sock.

 

[Reepicheep]

The repressed perversion often enters into awareness where we either give into a sinful urge or where the perversion is denied. Take, for example, a person who is obviously aroused by watching people have sex but immediately denies it by repressing the urge. Such repressed urges play havoc within us, an unconscious conflict, and results in some form of unwanted neurotic behavior. The more we repress it, the more neurosis, and the further we are away from God.

Repressing or resisting? If you mean the person in your example denies to himself that he feels the urge at all, then that is not at all the same thing as admitting he feels the desire but chooses to refuse to act on it.

One problem with some peoples’ approach to psychology is that they confuse repression and suppression. Refusing to indulge a sinful desire is not the same thing as repressing it.
Repression=lying to oneself. Refusing to admit one feels a sinful impulse.
Suppression= admitting the desire to oneself and then refusing to give in to it.

 

[Irishmom2]

Such repressed urges play havoc within us, an unconscious conflict, and results in some form of unwanted neurotic behavior. The more we repress it, the more neurosis, and the further we are away from God.

So what is it you are trying to say on this, your second thread on this topic, the first one having been pulled? Are you saying that they should not repress their urges?

Honestly, I don’t know what the point of this thread is. Who is it meant to help? Do you think that repeating your view over and over will persuade someone? It may, but not in the right direction. It certainly does not help any Catholics or anyone coming to this site to learn what **Catholics ** believe.

Perhaps instead, you should go submit your misleading and erroneous thoughts to a site that will appreciate your unique take on things, because what you are espousing on this thread and others, does not follow Catholic thinking.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Repressing or resisting? If you mean the person in your example denies to himself that he feels the urge at all, then that is not at all the same thing as admitting he feels the desire but chooses to refuse to act on it.

One problem with some peoples’ approach to psychology is that they confuse repression and suppression. Refusing to indulge a sinful desire is not the same thing as repressing it.
Repression=lying to oneself. Refusing to admit one feels a sinful impulse.
Suppression= admitting the desire to oneself and then refusing to give in to it.

Some people suppress sinful desires and others repress. Resisting the temptation, and asking for God’s help, is the healthy response. Not so with repression and denial.

The man who only avoids the outward occasions of evil, but fails to uproot it in himself, will gain little advantage. Indeed, temptations will return upon him the sooner, and he will find himself in a worse state than before. Little by little and by patient endurance you will overcome them by God’s help, better than by your own violence and importunity. Seek regular advice in temptation, and never deal harshly with those who are tempted, but give them such encouragement as you would value yourself.
–The Imitation of Christ, Book One, Chapter 13

 

[Bookcat]

Satan does not work using magic, but uses our human nature which includes the cognitive unconscious where the triggers for the seven capital sins are stored and activated. It’s these triggers that we are obligated to uproot from within oneself.

I advise you to seek out a Spiritual Director. The mortification of sinful inclinations does not mean that one is to necessarily go digging around in some “unconscious” realm. Such can be actually be contrary to way one ought to go.

 

[Bookcat]

Some people suppress sinful desires and others repress. Resisting the temptation, and asking for God’s help, is the healthy response. Not so with repression and denial.

The man who only avoids the outward occasions of evil, but fails to uproot it in himself, will gain little advantage. Indeed, temptations will return upon him the sooner, and he will find himself in a worse state than before. Little by little and by patient endurance you will overcome them by God’s help, better than by your own violence and importunity. Seek regular advice in temptation, and never deal harshly with those who are tempted, but give them such encouragement as you would value yourself.
–The Imitation of Christ, Book One, Chapter 13

Do NOT take such supposed ideas of some in psychology’s history (all this stuff about repression…etc) or even of any that are recent - and then try to apply that Spiritual writing to it.

Taking it to mean that the author of the Imitation would agree that one should do so…

No. That can actually bring one into dangerous waters.

 

[pianistclare]

I advise you to seek out a Spiritual Director. The mortification of sinful inclinations does not mean that one is to necessarily go digging around in some “unconscious” realm. Such can be actually be contrary to way one ought to go.

Well stated. Listen to Bookcat.
And heed (name removed by moderator)'s advice to get a good Spiritual Director.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Do NOT take such supposed ideas of some in psychology’s history (all this stuff about repression…etc) or even of any that are recent - and then try to apply that Spiritual writing to it.

Taking it to mean that the author of the Imitation would agree that one should do so…

No. That can actually bring one into dangerous waters.

Are you in the state of denial pretending that psychological repression does not exist?

 

[Bookcat]

Are you in the state of denial pretending that psychological repression does not exist?

I have *repressed *the idea

Not getting into a discussion about various ideas in the wide field of psychology…old or new.

I am noting what I have noted from the Spiritual and Theological Sciences …read again my posts.

(remember this is the Spirituality Forum…)

 

[Reepicheep]

Are you in the state of denial pretending that psychological repression does not exist?

Bookcat: It is not appropriate to use X in context Y.

Robert Sock: Are you denying that X exists?