Is having the TLM enough? What about other sacraments?

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GloriousOrder said:
R.C.I.A. stands for “Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults”. It’s the watered-down, communal (as opposed to 1-on-1, priest-with-convert) way of converting people to the faith. I had to go through with it to enter, and I’m not sure about a lot of things in the Church because of its lackluster handling. You’d think the Cathedral of the Archdiocese would bother to put more into it, but R.C.I.A. was handled deplorably. At least a priest was with us, and not some 20-something “catechist” fresh out of Sociology 101!
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I love how your definition of RCIA is so accurate and free from personal opinon. In my parish, RCIA is a long series of weekly classes which consists of both group discussions and one-on-one instruction with our priests, sisters, lay catechists, and sponsors. Their study is guided by a workbook, which is meant to outline the teachings of the church. It’s different from parish to parish but none of the one’s I’ve seen have been what you described.
 
Batfink said:
But this is where I would think it would be better to have a different viewpoint, so a new Catholic got to experience true, faithful Catholic teaching which expanded their horizons. I’m not directing this personally at you, but a lot of new Catholics come with a fixed idea of what Catholicism is and it’s only one particular spirituality within the Church.
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No worries there!

I am comfortable with someone not quite having the same viewpoint teach me about Catholicism.
 
TrueLight said:
Unless he means the Trent Church is the EF, the Vatican Church is the OF and the English church is the Anglican Use.

But Patriarchates?
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I mean one Patriarchate (ie. Patriarch of the West, the Pope).

I was thinking about the Ordinariate, and what is an Ordinariate but essentially a Church on its own. It exists in the same territory as a Latin Diocese, it doesn’t answer to that Ordinary but rather have an Ordinary of their own. That is essentially a sui juris Church. A rose by any other name is still a rose!
 
ProVobis said:
Because they’ve been only trying to do that for well over 400 years. Still no agreement on the right translation and after studying some Latin I even dislike the one in my handmissal. I tend to get overcritical of English translations and now find them distracting.
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Well, that no longer seems to be a point to-be-considered, given that Rome has approved the 2011 Advent translation. It is what it is, and the vernacular O.F. must be celebrated using this translation. I don’t think the Mass is compromised by a less-than-perfect translation, so there is a certain moot quality to the objection. When Rome says “this translation of the Mass is sufficient to poetically pray to our Heavenly Father during the Holy Sacrifice”, it will spread out across the world and work somehow.
 
Zhenia said:
The priest who instructed me (one on one) in the 1970s used the old Baltimore Catechism, even though the parish wanted him to use this weird one with modernistic drawings on the cover…I think it was called The Catechism for Now or something like that. :rolleyes:

Maybe what you can do is get a Baltimore Catechism and study it independently?
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The modern catechism is more in depth than the balitmore catechism, which was for kids. The modern rites are just as good as the old rites. This attachment to the pre V2 rites is really misguided. The sacraments bring about the salvation of souls, no matter if they are administered in pre V2 form or post V2 form.
 
Zhenia said:
One problem I would have with the TLM in local parishes is that the other sacraments are still novus ordo. Anyone else have this problem?
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Isn’t God the focus? We’re praying to Him. He hears and understands us regardless of what language we use. I think that so long as we are in obedience to Rome, our bishop, and our parish priests, we should be grateful when we get things the way we like them and patient when we don’t. I personally do not like the Mass in Latin but when I am in attendance at a Latin Mass my heart, mind and soul are entirely fixed on God. Certainly I would prefer to hear the Mass said in a language that I can understand, but it’s still the Mass.

And the obverse is true as well. The Mass is the Mass, If you go to Zimbabwe and hear the Mass in the vernacular, it’s still the Mass. The focus is on God. If I have a problem with the Mass, then I have a problem. And it isn’t the Church that needs to change,.
 
Theophilus777 said:
when I am in attendance at a Latin Mass my heart, mind and soul are entirely fixed on God.
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That’s good. Isn’t that the whole idea?

I mean, even in English do people have to understand “hallowed” as long as they know it relates to God somehow?

People meditate with Sanskrit words all the time. No one knows what they mean but it helps them relax, and that’s all that’s really necessary. Same principle with Christian Latin and that it all relates to praying to the Holy Trinity. And either we pray or the priest prays for us.
 
Theophilus777 said:
Isn’t God the focus? We’re praying to Him. He hears and understands us regardless of what language we use. I think that so long as we are in obedience to Rome, our bishop, and our parish priests, we should be grateful when we get things the way we like them and patient when we don’t. I personally do not like the Mass in Latin but when I am in attendance at a Latin Mass my heart, mind and soul are entirely fixed on God. Certainly I would prefer to hear the Mass said in a language that I can understand, but it’s still the Mass.

And the obverse is true as well. The Mass is the Mass, If you go to Zimbabwe and hear the Mass in the vernacular, it’s still the Mass. The focus is on God. If I have a problem with the Mass, then I have a problem. And it isn’t the Church that needs to change,.
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I think you misunderstand. The issue many Traditionalists have is not with the language so much as the FORM of the new sacraments. For a sacrament to be valid, it must have proper matter, form and intention, and the minister of the sacrament must also be validly ordained. If any ONE of those requirements is missing, a sacrament is not confected.

For many TradCaths, these elements are questionable due to the many changes made in them. Its not just about the Mass or that it was in Latin and now isn’t.
 
RCIA differs from each parish. To say that “oh, if only we still had one on one with a priest” is folly, because what if you had a priest who wasn’t theologically sound?

Questioning the validity of the Sacraments because they are different from when they were a few years ago rubs me the wrong way, specifically because those in Rome use the current model. I would interpret people saying “the Sacraments in their current form are not valid” as, at the very least, an indirect statement that the gates of Hell has prevailed and the current leadership within the Church is not legitimate and promoting heretical Sacraments. At worse, you’re directly saying these things, which is pretty close to being a Sede.
 
The modern rites are just as good as the old rites. This attachment to the pre V2 rites is really misguided. The sacraments bring about the salvation of souls, no matter if they are administered in pre V2 form or post V2 form.
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“As good as” is a bit vague. Are the OF and EF both valid? Absolutely. However, if nobody thought one form might be “better” in some ways then the other, there never would have been an OF- or an EF for that matter. We would still be celebrating the valid Mass used in the earliest Church by the Apostles.

The forthcoming new missal for the OF is one example of how we can still look to “improve” a perfectly valid sacrament.

Pax.
 
Dan_Daly said:
The forthcoming new missal for the OF is one example of how we can still look to “improve” a perfectly valid sacrament.
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Or at least have fewer people in the English-speaking world doubt it? But that’s not a guarantee either. Many left the Church in the 60’s as they started questioning NOT the Mass or the sacraments but questioning the validity of the English. There were some writings on it, including Omlor’s et al.
 
Dan_Daly said:
“As good as” is a bit vague. Are the OF and EF both valid? Absolutely. However, if nobody thought one form might be “better” in some ways then the other, there never would have been an OF- or an EF for that matter. We would still be celebrating the valid Mass used in the earliest Church by the Apostles.

The forthcoming new missal for the OF is one example of how we can still look to “improve” a perfectly valid sacrament.

Pax.
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I don’t find it vague at all. Licit and valid is licit and valid. We have multiple Forms, even Rites, which are valid and licit despite being different. I fail to see how the current Forms we have now aren’t valid.
 
You misunderstood me.

“As Good as” does not mean “more valid”. You can’t be more valid. A sacrament is either valid or it’s not. However, it’s perfectly acceptable to think a sacrament is valid but can still be “improved” in some manner. If that wasn’t the case, why would the OF have ever come about? It was in an effort to “improve” the EF. The argument that we don’t need the EF because the OF is “just as good” is nonsensical, because the reverse would also hold true, and there would not be an OF. However, I think one can argue that the OF or EF is “better” in certain areas. We can and will disagree about the details, but that doesn’t mean the arguement is without merit.

I’m fairly new to Catholic Answers, but I’ve been here (and elsewhere online and in real life) long enough to see that OF/EF discussions can quickly turn into bitter arguments. That is not as it should be. However, we shouldn’t go overly in the other direction and avoid discussions, including comparing/contrasting, the two forms (and all the other valid Catholic Rites) all together. We can argue bitterly, we can be mute and ban certain topics, or we can try to talk with each other charitably and help one another grow in our faith.
 
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