Is he guilty of lust?

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LUST: “The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation.” (Catholic encyclopedia)

INORDINATE: *“exceeding reasonable limits” * (Merriam Webster)

Suppose a good catholic young man remains a chaste till his wedding night. His bride, a stunning 6’ tall twenty-one year old beauty with a dynamite smile and personality to match enters the honeymoon suite of the mountain cabin wearing intimate apparel, they share a glass of wine in front of the fireplace that overlooks the valley below.

Obviously in short order this young man is going to be absolutely at the maximum peak human level of sexual desire for “carnal pleasure” involving his “human organ of generation”. In other words, if this situation doesn’t produce “inordinate” craving, then nothing will.

His mind is focused on one thing as his eyes soak in her beauty…experiencing her physically! If there is a maximum capacity for sexual craving and excitement, he has certainly reached it, especially as the marital act commences for the first time in his life

… If he even makes it that far.
😉

Is this young man guilty of the sin of lust?
 
With all of the “NO” responses to the poll… It seems to me that the Church would do well to redefine the term “Lust”.

:cool:

LUST: “The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation.” (Catholic encyclopedia)

INORDINATE: “exceeding reasonable limits” (Merriam Webster)

How is this young man going to know if his desire for carnal pleasure has exceeded a reasonable limit?
 
TLM08 said:
LUST: “The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation.” (Catholic encyclopedia)

INORDINATE: *“exceeding reasonable limits” * (Merriam Webster)

Suppose a good catholic young man remains a chaste till his wedding night. His bride, a stunning 6’ tall twenty-one year old beauty with a dynamite smile and personality to match enters the honeymoon suite of the mountain cabin wearing intimate apparel, they share a glass of wine in front of the fireplace that overlooks the valley below.

Obviously in short order this young man is going to be absolutely at the maximum peak human level of sexual desire for “carnal pleasure” involving his “human organ of generation”. In other words, if this situation doesn’t produce “inordinate” craving, then nothing will.

His mind is focused on one thing as his eyes soak in her beauty…experiencing her physically! If there is a maximum capacity for sexual craving and excitement, he has certainly reached it, especially as the marital act commences for the first time in his life

… If he even makes it that far.
😉

Is this young man guilty of the sin of lust?
Click to expand...
I think it would be better to consider the CCC on this rather than the encyclopedia.

CCC 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
 
thistle said:
I think it would be better to consider the CCC on this rather than the encyclopedia.

CCC 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
Click to expand...
I think we need “unitive” defined in this context.

Inordinate: - excessive: beyond normal limits; WordNet.Princeton.edu

How do we defiine excessive?

Normal: conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; same source

Maybe the CC should redefine lust here since it boils down to social norms and social norms are a changing for the worse.
 
I think you should use the rules for determining a hit or an error in baseball.

Would a normal-skilled player at this level of play been able to make the catch/throw to make the out.

Would a normal red-blooded male in this situation be feeling the same feelings, or is this guy way overboard.
 
Mijoy2 said:
I think we need “unitive” defined in this context.

Inordinate: - excessive: beyond normal limits; WordNet.Princeton.edu

How do we defiine excessive?

Normal: conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; same source

Maybe the CC should redefine lust here since it boils down to social norms and social norms are a changing for the worse.
Click to expand...
The CCC does not need to redefine anything. When folks start asking about what is inordinate they are simply looking for a way to say they are not really sinning and carry on doing it. There is no need to overthink this. Its not complicated.
Simply put if you are getting aroused thinking about having sex with a woman and dwelling on that thought then that is lust.
 
TLM08 said:
LUST: “The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation.” (Catholic encyclopedia)

INORDINATE: *“exceeding reasonable limits” * (Merriam Webster)

Suppose a good catholic young man remains a chaste till his wedding night. His bride, a stunning 6’ tall twenty-one year old beauty with a dynamite smile and personality to match enters the honeymoon suite of the mountain cabin wearing intimate apparel, they share a glass of wine in front of the fireplace that overlooks the valley below.

Obviously in short order this young man is going to be absolutely at the maximum peak human level of sexual desire for “carnal pleasure” involving his “human organ of generation”. In other words, if this situation doesn’t produce “inordinate” craving, then nothing will.

His mind is focused on one thing as his eyes soak in her beauty…experiencing her physically! If there is a maximum capacity for sexual craving and excitement, he has certainly reached it, especially as the marital act commences for the first time in his life

… If he even makes it that far.
😉

Is this young man guilty of the sin of lust?
Click to expand...
I’m new here and have spent the last few days browsing thru posts on various forums and threads and I’ve noticed that most of yours are concerned with ‘carnal pleasure’, masturbation, lust, impure thoughts, porn etc. You even set up scenarios like the above to get people’s responses. Believe it or not, there’s more to the moral life than sex and obsessing over its possible sinfulness.
 
thistle said:
The CCC does not need to redefine anything. When folks start asking about what is inordinate they are simply looking for a way to say they are not really sinning and carry on doing it. There is no need to overthink this. Its not complicated.
Simply put if you are getting aroused thinking about having sex with a woman and dwelling on that thought then that is lust.
Click to expand...
Give me a break. If two people aren’t aroused before they have sex, than it isn’t going to happen. There’s a difference between being aroused with your spouse or treating her only as a sexual object.
 
Brickmaker said:
I’m new here and have spent the last few days browsing thru posts on various forums and threads and I’ve noticed that most of yours are concerned with ‘carnal pleasure’, masturbation, lust, impure thoughts, porn etc. You even set up scenarios like the above to get people’s responses. Believe it or not, there’s more to the moral life than sex and obsessing over its possible sinfulness.
Click to expand...
There are other moral issues? I had no idea!
:eek:

Thanks for bringing me up to speed.
😉
 
Clearly this definition of lust is incomplete in reference to God’s purpose for our life.

God designed men and women to be attracted to each other. If He hadn’t, our human race would have died out a LONG time ago. Additionally, He created us to desire each other physically. We are MADE that way.

The problem comes when that desire and any ensuing actions exist outside of God’s purpose, which in this case is marriage.

Lust, even by this definition is not a sin. It’s the thoughts and actions that occur because of the lust that are sin. Lust is a feeling. How you feel is not the sin…it’s what you do with that feeling that is the sin.

In this scenario, this man is “lusting” after his wife. Despite his lustful feelings, which no doubt occured for his wife prior to their marriage also, he did not act on those feelings. Therefore he committed no sin.
In your example, you do not mention weather or not he had impure thoughts so I’m assuming that he didn’t.

God has created us with the ability to feel many different kinds of emotions. We are made that way for His purpose. How we act on those feelings is our choice. Any action that is contrary to the nature of God and His purpose for our lives would be the sin to be worried about.
 
thistle said:
The CCC does not need to redefine anything. When folks start asking about what is inordinate they are simply looking for a way to say they are not really sinning and carry on doing it. There is no need to overthink this. Its not complicated.
Simply put if you are getting aroused thinking about having sex with a woman and dwelling on that thought then that is lust.
Click to expand...
Say what?

The post is talking about a husband and wife, not a man thinking about having sex with a woman.

Because words are used in the CCC they should not be clarified with a definition?

Words such as inordinate, normal, disordered etc are EXTREMELY subject to interpretation.

But you will disagree with this too.
 
thistle said:
The CCC does not need to redefine anything. When folks start asking about what is inordinate they are simply looking for a way to say they are not really sinning and carry on doing it. There is no need to overthink this. Its not complicated.
Simply put if you are getting aroused thinking about having sex with a woman and dwelling on that thought then that is lust.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. He would be filled with lust. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be filled with love and joy too. That’s just normal behavior. I don’t think it’s wrong. Look at Song of Solomon - that whole book is nothing but lust and love!!
 
thistle said:
CCC 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
Click to expand...
How the heck is the young man supposed to know if he is having sex with his wife for both pleasure/unitive and procreative purposes?

Does he have to be thinking of his possible future baby as he completing the act in order for it not to be lust?

The obsession with sex on these forums is very… odd. But… interesting. I wonder if it extends to the average catholic in the real world, or if it restricted merely to forums like these and the types of people this forum generally presents…
 
Brickmaker said:
You’re welcome. Not that it did you much good with your obsession: you went straight from here to this forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=299465 , didn’t you?
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If this is a topic of concern that TLM08 has, I don’t see what any of business it is of yours. You’ve posted twice on this thread and both times it seems to be an attack on TLM08. I understand you’re new here, but this against forum rules. You haven’t added one comment that even relates to this thread. Again you should not just post to a thread to attack a person’s character. Shame on you.😦
 
Exalt said:
How the heck is the young man supposed to know if he is having sex with his wife for both pleasure/unitive and procreative purposes?

Does he have to be thinking of his possible future baby as he completing the act in order for it not to be lust?

The obsession with sex on these forums is very… odd. But… interesting. I wonder if it extends to the average catholic in the real world, or if it restricted merely to forums like these and the types of people this forum generally presents…
Click to expand...
I believe Our Lady of Fatima stated that sins of the flesh will lead more souls to hell than any other sin. So I guess it should be a well discussed topic if this is what most people have problems with.
 
TLM08 said:
How is this young man going to know if his desire for carnal pleasure has exceeded a reasonable limit?
Click to expand...
The moment he voluntarily shifts his focus from his bride to himself, his desire for carnal pleasure has exceeded a reasonable limit.

As far as him knowing it, that depends on what he’s been taught.
 
thistle said:
The CCC does not need to redefine anything. When folks start asking about what is inordinate they are simply looking for a way to say they are not really sinning and carry on doing it. There is no need to overthink this. Its not complicated.
Simply put if you are getting aroused thinking about having sex with a woman and dwelling on that thought then that is lust.
Click to expand...
This isn’t about a man desiring relations with “a woman”. In this scenario, a young man is about to consummate his marriage to the love of his life.
On top of that, he has managed to keep his lustful urges in check up until this moment. That is a whole lot of pressure. He has done everything right.
We were given sexual urges so that we would want to procreate. His high level of desire is normal and natural.
 
jaf46 said:
This isn’t about a man desiring relations with “a woman”. In this scenario, a young man is about to consummate his marriage to the love of his life.
On top of that, he has managed to keep his lustful urges in check up until this moment. That is a whole lot of pressure. He has done everything right.
We were given sexual urges so that we would want to procreate. His high level of desire is normal and natural.
Click to expand...
I’d be more worried if he didn’t feel that way 😃
 
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