Is Hell Crowded or Empty?

[PJD1987]

Dear Friends,

Firstly, I apologize for a lengthy post, but please bear with me.

I just watched this video by Fr. Robert Barron:

youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4&feature=relmfu

Led me to wonder about this thought…because if everyone is saved, then what is the point of following any religion, one could just go the secular humanist route and try to “be a good person” and God would forgive the rest. On the other hand, I’ll give a personal example…and I’ll wrap it all up nicely together, so bear with me…

My mother and father were raised Catholic, but do not follow the faith very well. Before I came along, they both had previous marriages with other children and then got married in a civil ceremony, presumably because they did not get annulments for the previous marriages (although I’ve never had the heart to ask). Neither of them have been to Reconciliation since before I was born (and probably a long time before that as well), possibly due to their marriage status? I don’t know that’s probably only part of it and is simply conjecture. But they both receive every time they go to Mass.

My mother goes to Mass Christmas and Easter (sometimes)…today when I was on my way out of the house to go to Mass she said, “Should I go to Mass?” and I said, “Well…you should always go to Mass,” and then she proceeded to not go to Mass. Later on this evening, I convinced her to sign all three of us (mom, dad, and I) up for a Fr. Barron study series they will be having at my parish, and I said, “You’ll definitely learn a lot…” and she responded, “Oh, I want to learn…the Church has opened its mind a lot, you couldn’t POSSIBLY believe the stuff the nuns and priests used to teach me back in the 50s and 60s…” to which I replied, “The stuff you learned back then is still the same now, mom…” and she just repeated, “Well…they’ve opened up their minds about a lot…” I give that example just to give a glimpse of where my mother is at in her faith…and it’s very troubling to me, to say the least.

My father is much better and attends Mass with me every weekend, but tends to not take anything too seriously. He likes to joke about the faith, I showed him a new Catholic ad for the 2012 election which some of you may have seen (youtube.com/watch?v=D9vQt6IXXaM) and he joked, “…well that’s quite a good piece of propaganda…” which was not the answer I was looking for, unfortunately. In any case, he has not deep spiritual or Scriptural or Traditional knowledge or understanding of his faith, it’s more of just a habit for him.

I tell you all that to say…while I don’t particularly agree with the “everyone gets to Heaven no matter what” philosophy that some have put forth, I also can’t condemn my parents to Hell for their shortcomings in their faith life either. While they may not be following their faith the way they should, they are still decent people, and I’m not sure what I am supposed to believe about God’s mercy and justice when it comes to people like my parents. I know we shouldn’t encourage the “just be a good person” attitude, because like I said, what then is the point of following a religion? But the alternative is that good, decent people like my parents will be in Hell…

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Paul

 

[Katholish]

Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7:
[13] Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

 

[DavidFilmer]

This was a fashionable debate among theologians back in the 40’s and 50’s. The Church obviously teaches (de Fide) that hell exists. But is anyone actually in it (or will anyone ever go there)? Or, more specifically, does the Catholic Church actually teach one way or another?

The consensus is that the Church has no such teaching, one way or another. A Catholic may believe that hell exists but is empty (or full), and not believe contrary to Catholic doctrine.

The debate did not concern whether hell was actually empty, but only whether the Catholic Church has ever taught that even one person is (or will be) in hell. The theological consensus was that the Church cannot answer that question - only God knows for sure.

 

[PJD1987]

So then, why be Catholic? If everyone goes to Heaven…what’s the incentive for being Catholic, and how does it make sense given the Gospel passage the first responder provided…?

 

[underacloud]

The consensus is that the Church has no such teaching, one way or another. A Catholic may believe that hell exists but is empty (or full), and not believe contrary to Catholic doctrine.

I’d say it is more correct to say that a Catholic may *hope *that hell is empty; we may not *believe *it is empty as that would be presumptuous.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

We have no idea if Hell is crowded or empty. But if we don’t at least make the effort, it won’t be empty much longer! So even if it’s empty, that doesn’t necessarily mean it always will be.

Pray that all or saved. But don’t expect it. That’s a dangerous attitude. God is our judge, and we do not how He will rule. But we do know that if we keep to the Sacraments and ask for His forgiveness, it will be granted. So we must try. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves and forget that.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I go along with the Marian apparition of Hell given to the children at Fatima, aka “the first secret” viz. -

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

There’s a clear implication of souls like “transparent burning embers”, which implies a big fire and a lot of embers. I suppose I sound a bit morbid, but I’m biased, as I had the experience of my own father turning up in my bed room the night he died. Just before he disappeared again, he gave an absolutely terrifying scream. I still remember it 33 years later. I started to scream myself, and I could only see him, and not what was coming for him. The fear was so contagious. So I think he’s there for a start.

Sometimes I get the impression some Catholics are so convinced of God’s mercy that they think nobody goes to hell. My wise old (Protestant) pastor summed it up with the comment, “I think Catholics tend to soft pedal judgement. I think they do anyway.”

I note that the demons always shrieked when Christ drove them out. The simple reason was that they knew they were going back to hell, having failed in their temptation duty. I remember talking to another Protestant pastor who had a bit of a sideline in exorcisms, and he told me that

1. He’d seen people floating in the air near the ceiling and …
2. “You should see the way they (demons) carry on! They don’t want to go!” And that was his comment, word for word. Even demons don’t want to go back there.

I don’t think it’s empty. When the church refuses to speculate on who might be in hell, I think she’s simply trying to remain faithful to the injunction, “Do not judge, lest you be judged”. But that doesn’t mean the church thinks hell is empty. I think I could name a handful of deceased tyrants, and I’d have a strong suspicion they’re in hell. But I can’t prove it, and neither can the church.

However I also think it might be fairly crowded. But then that’s my opinion only.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I’d say it is more correct to say that a Catholic may *hope *that hell is empty; we may not *believe *it is empty as that would be presumptuous.

No, we may believe. We can “believe” in Limbo if we please, although the modern Church does not promote such an idea, and expresses “hope” (there’s that word) of full salvation for unbaptized babies (CCC 1261). We are free to believe that unbaptized babies can attain full salvation - we are not limited to hope alone. We are also free to reject this “hope” and believe otherwise (ie, Limbo).

If we can “believe” in Limbo, we can “believe” that hell is empty. Neither are contrary to Catholic Doctrine.

We can also “believe” that hell is crowded, which is also not contrary to Catholic doctrine (but is equally “presumptuous”).

 

[Terry_Washingto]

So great is the mercy of God is that we can be speculate only a fairly small number of people are actually in Hell( Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin , Valdimir Lenin and their henchmen) which amounts to several million people but compared to all the human beings who ever existed, this is still a fairly small percentage!

Terry

 

[Terry_Washingto]

I go along with the Marian apparition of Hell given to the children at Fatima, aka “the first secret” viz. -

There’s a clear implication of souls like “transparent burning embers”, which implies a big fire and a lot of embers. I suppose I sound a bit morbid, but I’m biased, as I had the experience of my own father turning up in my bed room the night he died. Just before he disappeared again, he gave an absolutely terrifying scream. I still remember it 33 years later. I started to scream myself, and I could only see him, and not what was coming for him. The fear was so contagious. So I think he’s there for a start.

Sometimes I get the impression some Catholics are so convinced of God’s mercy that they think nobody goes to hell. My wise old (Protestant) pastor summed it up with the comment, “I think Catholics tend to soft pedal judgement. I think they do anyway.”

I note that the demons always shrieked when Christ drove them out. The simple reason was that they knew they were going back to hell, having failed in their temptation duty. I remember talking to another Protestant pastor who had a bit of a sideline in exorcisms, and he told me that

1. He’d seen people floating in the air near the ceiling and …
2. “You should see the way they (demons) carry on! They don’t want to go!” And that was his comment, word for word. Even demons don’t want to go back there.

I don’t think it’s empty. When the church refuses to speculate on who might be in hell, I think she’s simply trying to remain faithful to the injunction, “Do not judge, lest you be judged”. But that doesn’t mean the church thinks hell is empty. I think I could name a handful of deceased tyrants, and I’d have a strong suspicion they’re in hell. But I can’t prove it, and neither can the church.

However I also think it might be fairly crowded. But then that’s my opinion only.

The late demonologist Ed Warren tends to agree- in Hell the demons not just torment the damned( Hussein, Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot I suspect) but one another apparently small wonder that they are so reluctant to leave the bodies of the possessed).

Terry

 

[saveusfromhell]

after reading this you will want to wear a brown scapular
google.ie/url?q=http://stevensperay.wordpress.com/the-fewness-of-the-saved-most-christians-go-to-hell/&sa=U&ei=vZn6T4e_NYix8QPqn7WfBw&ved=0CB4QFjAF&sig2=MbnjDREYzrjzYznvl7cuPA&usg=AFQjCNEOsB7VF9H7nE4dKPIuBjp523PXTg
and then the brown scapular
google.ie/url?q=http://www.olrl.org/doctrine/hell.shtml&sa=U&ei=vZn6T4e_NYix8QPqn7WfBw&ved=0CCUQFjAI&sig2=d7rXYN039Stsoi6geF_0dw&usg=AFQjCNE-504zTwWnWCYhpvH70rLFlB_qOQ

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Dear Friends,

Firstly, I apologize for a lengthy post, but please bear with me.

I just watched this video by Fr. Robert Barron:

youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4&feature=relmfu

Led me to wonder about this thought…because if everyone is saved, then what is the point of following any religion, one could just go the secular humanist route and try to “be a good person” and God would forgive the rest. On the other hand, I’ll give a personal example…and I’ll wrap it all up nicely together, so bear with me…

My mother and father were raised Catholic, but do not follow the faith very well. Before I came along, they both had previous marriages with other children and then got married in a civil ceremony, presumably because they did not get annulments for the previous marriages (although I’ve never had the heart to ask). Neither of them have been to Reconciliation since before I was born (and probably a long time before that as well), possibly due to their marriage status? I don’t know that’s probably only part of it and is simply conjecture. But they both receive every time they go to Mass.

My mother goes to Mass Christmas and Easter (sometimes)…today when I was on my way out of the house to go to Mass she said, “Should I go to Mass?” and I said, “Well…you should always go to Mass,” and then she proceeded to not go to Mass. Later on this evening, I convinced her to sign all three of us (mom, dad, and I) up for a Fr. Barron study series they will be having at my parish, and I said, “You’ll definitely learn a lot…” and she responded, “Oh, I want to learn…the Church has opened its mind a lot, you couldn’t POSSIBLY believe the stuff the nuns and priests used to teach me back in the 50s and 60s…” to which I replied, “The stuff you learned back then is still the same now, mom…” and she just repeated, “Well…they’ve opened up their minds about a lot…” I give that example just to give a glimpse of where my mother is at in her faith…and it’s very troubling to me, to say the least.

My father is much better and attends Mass with me every weekend, but tends to not take anything too seriously. He likes to joke about the faith, I showed him a new Catholic ad for the 2012 election which some of you may have seen (youtube.com/watch?v=D9vQt6IXXaM) and he joked, “…well that’s quite a good piece of propaganda…” which was not the answer I was looking for, unfortunately. In any case, he has not deep spiritual or Scriptural or Traditional knowledge or understanding of his faith, it’s more of just a habit for him.

I tell you all that to say…while I don’t particularly agree with the “everyone gets to Heaven no matter what” philosophy that some have put forth, I also can’t condemn my parents to Hell for their shortcomings in their faith life either. While they may not be following their faith the way they should, they are still decent people, and I’m not sure what I am supposed to believe about God’s mercy and justice when it comes to people like my parents. I know we shouldn’t encourage the “just be a good person” attitude, because like I said, what then is the point of following a religion? But the alternative is that good, decent people like my parents will be in Hell…

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Paul

I just read the first paragraph.
Look, so, so that we must follow a religion like the Catholic Church, out of fear for going to hell, there must be someone in hell? Does that mus sense?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Look, so, so that we must follow a religion like the Catholic Church, out of fear for going to hell, there must be someone in hell? Does that mus sense?

Gaa! I am Catholic because of my belief in (and love of) Jesus Christ - not because of my FEAR of anything. I would be Catholic even if the Church taught that hell did not exist, and everyone went to heaven.

 

[prettiepet]

Remember the parable of the workers who each received the same wage? Well I believe if right after death you realize what you have done and are sorry and want to be with God you can be saved. That does’t mean if you know better you should count on this! God knows our motives better than we do. Remember ST. Faustina learned some people choose hell so it isnot empty.

 

[spencer2]

Most people who think hell is empty think that mercy means tolerance.

 

[studychristian]

Only God will decide who goes where…We just gotta hope were chosen for Heaven

 

[Br.Carlo]

God’s peace. Perhaps our Lord’s comment on the population of hell will add a sobering element to this thread: “Enter ye in at the strait gait: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Mt. 7: 13-14, AV) . And as to other sundry points such as the fiery, eternal, agonizing nature of the punishments of hell and the plurality of its occupants, you might also want to consider the fate of just the beast-worshippers as seen in the Revelation of St. John: “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Rev. 14: 9-11 AV). Incidentally, we know from the rest of that chapter of Revelation that the wine of the wrath of God is blood, and that there was so much of it that it “came unto the horses’ bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.” (Rev. 14: 20; that’s a lot of blood!) Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

 

[Jehannette]

This was a fashionable debate among theologians back in the 40’s and 50’s. The Church obviously teaches (de Fide) that hell exists. But is anyone actually in it (or will anyone ever go there)? Or, more specifically, does the Catholic Church actually teach one way or another?

The consensus is that the Church has no such teaching, one way or another. A Catholic may believe that hell exists but is empty (or full), and not believe contrary to Catholic doctrine.

The debate did not concern whether hell was actually empty, but only whether the Catholic Church has ever taught that even one person is (or will be) in hell. The theological consensus was that the Church cannot answer that question - only God knows for sure.

Consider the Council of Quiercy, whose canons are listed in Denzinger’s “Sources of Catholic Dogma”:

Chap. 1. Omnipotent God created man noble without sin with a free will, and he whom He wished to remain in the sanctity of justice, He placed in Paradise. Man using his free will badly sinned and fell, and became the “mass of perdition” of the entire human race. The just and good God, however, chose from this same mass of perdition according to His foreknowledge those whom through grace He predestined to life. [Rom. 8:29 ff; Eph. 1:11], and He predestined for these eternal life; the others, whom by the judgment of justice he left in the mass of perdition, however, He knew would perish, but He did not predestine that they would perish, because He is just; however, He predestined eternal punishment for them. And on account of this we speak of only one predestination of God, which pertains either to the gift of grace or to the retribution of justice.

Chap. 2. The freedom of will which we lost in the first man, we have received back through Christ our Lord; and we have free will for good, preceded and aided by grace, and we have free will for evil, abandoned by grace. Moreover, because freed by grace and by grace healed from corruption, we have free will.

Chap. 3. Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to between saved * although not all will be saved*. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one who saves; that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish.

Chap. 4. Christ Jesus our Lord, as no man who is or has been or ever will be whose nature will not have been assumed in Him, so there is, has been, or will be, no man, for whom He has not suffered; although not all will be saved by the mystery of His passion. But because all are not redeemed by the mystery of His passion, He does not regard the greatness and the fullness of the price, but He regards the part of the unfaithful ones and those not believing in faith those things which He has worked through loves [Gal. 5:6], because the drink of human safety, which has been prepared by our infirmity and by divine strength, has indeed in itself that it may be beneficial to all; but if it is not drunk, it does not heal

The Catechism of the Catholic Church references the Council of Quiercy in a very “selective” quotation:

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

 

[Jehannette]

No, we may believe. We can “believe” in Limbo if we please, although the modern Church does not promote such an idea, and expresses “hope” (there’s that word) of full salvation for unbaptized babies (CCC 1261). We are free to believe that unbaptized babies can attain full salvation - we are not limited to hope alone. We are also free to reject this “hope” and believe otherwise (ie, Limbo).

If we can “believe” in Limbo, we can “believe” that hell is empty. Neither are contrary to Catholic Doctrine.

We can also “believe” that hell is crowded, which is also not contrary to Catholic doctrine (but is equally “presumptuous”).

Paragraph #1261 states “allow us to hope” which, of course, is different than saying that there “is hope” let alone “certain hope” for all infants who die without Baptism. Indeed, Pope Sixtus V, in his Papal bull Effraenatam, taught otherwise:

Noticing that frequently by various Apostolic Constitutions the audacity and daring of most profligate men, who know no restraint, of sinning with license against the commandment “do not kill” was repressed; We who are placed by the Lord in the supreme throne of justice, being counseled by a most just reason, are in part renewing old laws and in part extending them in order to restrain with just punishment the monstrous and atrocious brutality of those who have no fear to kill most cruelly fetuses still hiding in the maternal viscera. Who will not detest such an abhorrent and evil act, by which are lost not only the bodies but also the souls? Who will not condemn to a most grave punishment the impiety of him who will exclude a soul created in the image of God and for which Our Lord Jesus Christ has shed His precious Blood, and which is capable of eternal happiness and is destined to be in the company of angels, from the blessed vision of God, and who has impeded as much as he could the filling up of heavenly mansions, and has taken away the service to God by His creature?

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Most people who think hell is empty think that mercy means tolerance.

And do we have to do with those people? If they think so does it mean it is true? Only God knows whether hell is empty or not.