Is hell fair punishment?

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I was talking to a friend the other night who raised an interesting question for which I could not give him a satisfactory answer. He asked whether an evil act committed in time deserved *eternal *damnation in hell. That is, does the punishment seem to fit the crime?

What say you all?
 
I was talking to a friend the other night who raised an interesting question for which I could not give him a satisfactory answer. He asked whether an evil act committed in time deserved *eternal *damnation in hell. That is, does the punishment seem to fit the crime?

What say you all?
Personally, I think it’s somewhat of an empty threat. Whether Hell is real or not, I cannot say nor do I want to attempt to define such a place. But, what I *can *tell you is this:

It seems as if we are punished *by *our sins and not necessarily for them. When you do something wrong, there is always a consequence, whether it’d be physical or mental.

I must say, however, the mental consequences are the ones that really get to you and stay with you until you fix your mistake and learn from your fault; the physical ones (you know, like prison) would be the hellfire, if the mortal sin was that bad… and if you were caught.

I hope that got your brain pumpin’! 😃

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
 
It’s a choice we make, to live in God’s love or not.
If we commit a single, or many bad acts, we can repent. We have that choice to return to and trust in God’s love and mercy, even to the last instant of life.

If we choose ultimately to reject the love and mercy of God, since all light and love and beauty and joy and fulfillment comes from God’s life within us.
Reject that love and mercy and what we have left is absence of light, love, beauty, joy and fulfilment. We choose this ourselves, this choice that is hell for the human spirit.

Matthew 25 verses 31-46 tells us how our choice is made…however, God’s mercy is offered up to the last instant of human life
 
I was talking to a friend the other night who raised an interesting question for which I could not give him a satisfactory answer. He asked whether an evil act committed in time deserved *eternal *damnation in hell. That is, does the punishment seem to fit the crime?

What say you all?
It’s at times like this, when we need to have a strong theology of God as well as a philosophy. This means that I must speak about other theological concepts such a “Theodicy”, in order for us to have a full understanding of why God would allow an eternity of hell. So unfortunately for you, this is going to be a very long post. But that shouldn’t bother you if you are trully in search of understanding.

I am currently trying to write a book about God. Here’s the sort version of what I might write in my book.

Perfection & Hell.
First we must understand that God is perfection—we must presuppose it in order to understand God. We must also seek to know all of Gods attributes. This is because there are certain possibilities and impossibilities that result from Gods very nature of being. For example; if perfection is the foundation of all reality, then any thing that does exist only exists in relation to perfection. Sharing is a perfection. Therefore we exist only because God is sharing his nature. Also, one must recognise that perfection is the eternal root all good; and therefore is the greatest good that can be attained. This means that our eternal joy, happiness and love are wholly dependent on the fulfilling virtues of perfection.

By acknowledging these facts, we are presented with a philosophical problem.
The problem with this is that, since Perfection is Existence, Perfection is utterly intolerant of any imperfection what’s so ever existing in Gods being. This would seem to sabotage, so to speak, any system of creation that involved the existence of imperfect people. But there is a way out for us. God can permit imperfection, but only if the potential for a great good can ultimately come from it.

For example; God will permit ignorance if it motivates at least some of us to learn.
God will permit pain, if it motivates the stubborn heart to cry out to the mercy of God.
God will permit suffering if it inspires at least some victims or spectators to form a moral conscience.
God will permit greed and all types of selfishness if it succeeds in causing repulse in those who are the victims of such behaviour.
God will permit theft and spite, if by doing so, victims learn the golden rule.
God will permit the existence of victims, if by being one; people see the error of sin.

Because in this way, man has freely come to the knowledge of such error, and thus those minds that are susceptible to change will become aware of the notion of perfection and may choose to preach righteous, and thus create a lasting respect and love for the virtues of brotherhood unity and charity; promoting spiritual growth in the hearts of men and women. This in turn opens a door for the love of God to reveal itself to certain individuals or groups through purely natural means as well as supernatural.
Who can say that they know and love good, who have not themselves been victims, spectators and doers of evil?

God will permit a seemingly hostile but paradoxically beautiful universe that evolves through natural causes, if in the end such a universe inspires at least some to the knowledge and desire of perfection and the glory of God.
God will permit death and a sense of mortality if it inspires some to see the value of life.
God will permit doubt and mystery if it inspires men to freely encounter God through faith. God will permit wilful ignorance and denial if it protects their dignity as free acting agents.

So long as there is the potential for growth, then through humanities suffering, some of us are naturally and supernaturally able to see through our selfishness and lies, and in this way, perhaps some, moved by the love of good, will attempt to convert the oppressor and the ignorant by revealing to them the reality of good (God). In turn, we learn the great virtue of loving our enemies and valuing their humanity as much as our own; bringing us one step closer to Gods perfection and saving grace.
In other words God will allow evil if he can use it against itself.

Looking back at the problem hell, in respect of creation, any person that is created must be granted the same dignity as the person of God, which is the immortality of the soul and the freedom to choose. Man is granted immortality, because perfection is necessarily immortal, since perfection lacks nothing and is therefore with out beginning or end. Since God is perfection, if God creates you, this is fundamentally the same as God offering you the opportunity to participate in Gods perfection—Gods existence. To share, is a perfect act. At first, this would seem to infer that anything that ultimately chooses imperfection, should in principle cease to be, rather then be tormented. This would certainly have the illusion of a great good. But if humanity has the freedom to choose, then they must also have the dignity of fulfilling that choice. Remember what I said about Gods intolerance to imperfection? Hence: the existence of hell.

To be continued…
 
Perfection & Hell
Some might then ask, why God didn’t create a better universe; and they ask this question simply because they either fail to grasp the wisdom of God, or, they have totally ignored everything that has been written. However, for those who are honest spectators, I will now attempt to describe the nature of freewill in relation to God, since Gods freedom is also tied up with the notion that God could have simply made a better world.

People on other threads have been making very severe mistakes about Gods freewill and the freedom of humanity. God’s freedom is very different from humanities freedom. Why? Because freewill exists only in respect of the person’s relationship to God; which means that freewill is “relatively” perfect so far as the end provides human beings with the dignity to choose either an eternity with Gods perfection or an eternity without perfection. Freewill, in the sense of humanity, is not a necessary being. God is already perfect, He is perfection, which is the “greatest good”; but in order for creatures to have the greatest good, they must first choose. Freewill is not the “greatest good” by itself, since by itself it leads nowhere. In Christian theology, perfection is the “greatest good” why? It is because; perfection is eternal freedom from potential unhappiness. It is eternal freedom from potential death. It is eternal freedom from potential suffering. It is freedom from potential hell. It is freedom from potential despair. It is the root of all joy—God is heaven. Perfection is freedom.

The purpose of freewill is merely to allow humanity the opportunity to choose freedom. The idea that freewill is perfection in and of itself is a flawed human notion. Perfection means—in a nut shell—freedom from imperfection; and this is the “greatest good” that man can hope for, since perfection is the true root of eternal joy, love, and freedom from hell. God shares his perfection with man so that he can freely choose Otherwise, freedom so far as it allows for the potential to do evil, is an imperfection and is eternally destructive without the reality of perfection. The fact that there is any good at all in the world is owed ultimately to perfection; without which there would be nothing. It is not man that ascends to perfection; that is impossible. It is God that permits and perfects us through his son Jesus Christ. And this is done when we freely choose God. Once we choose God; our joy comes from our unity with Gods eternal and perfect expression. Our choices in this world; as I have said before, has eternal consequences that—once time is finished—cannot be undone; for to do so is logically impossible because it contradicts Gods nature. Therefore hell is eternal for those who choose otherwise.

To Be Continued…
 
Perfection & Hell
One might then ask; why does God create us at all. But the problem with that is, once you admit that god is perfection, you are in fact admitting that existence is fundamentally the greatest good. Therefore it is good that human beings should exist.

For some people this answer will not be good enough because they can’t stand the idea that there might be a positive answer to the problem of evil and hell. The reality is; human beings like to live, we like to be alive, it is in our nature; but we want to live according to our own desires and will. We want good, but we do not want to struggle for it. We want good, but we do not want to fight for it. We want good, but we don’t want perfection, and this is because that would mean giving up our ego’s. Somebody once said, “Better to reign in hell, then to serve in heaven!”. When we truly test our conscience, we find out that we care not for good, but for ourselves; and when we do value the greater good, it is usually only when it serves our own selfish purpose. Few of us, if any, truly loves perfection for its own sake, and come to know of it through our own mind and efforts; it is only through the mercy of God that allows us to attain such a sense of good.

I don’t believe that God is uncaring. I believe that God is willing to do all that is in Gods power to do; in other words, all that is “logically” possible.
So we must ask our selves if we truly value the potential good that can come from our existing. Because if we truly loved perfection we would happily suffer, if that is what it took for us to know and love God; if it meant suffering for our children lives we would happily be pinned on a cross. A good person would want their children to be perfect even if that meant the possibility of hell for some of them. If there was any other way that perfection could be attained, then I believe that God would do it. However, in saying that, I must remind you that God cannot force his perfections on his creatures; and neither can any creature live in perfection with out the will of God as a foundation. As I have said consistently in other threads, it is not logically possible for an all loving God to force his perfections on creation. And one can ignore this fact, but it does them no good, and neither does it change the truth of it.

It would seem then, however unfortunate, that a world, where hell and suffering is possible, is the only logically possible world where free human beings can exist and attain heaven. And for this reason I value Gods choice to create us. If a finite amount of suffering is the only road to heaven then I am prepared to walk that road, gratefully shunning all deception that would claim it better that I not; since they care not that I make it to heaven. If they truly loved me, they would wish the greatest good for me, and so they would agree that I should exist and know God at what ever cost. This might seem bleak, but it need not be so. We must learn that pain, suffering and imperfection are absolutely necessary to our well being, however paradoxical that may seem, and we should shun all ideas to the contrary. We should instead realise and embrace the great knowledge and values that we have attained from our suffering and use it to inspire others to the love of good. Do not be deceived. Since, so far as existing allows us the potential to know and live in eternal joy and life, a true understanding of God shows us that our creation is truly a merciful and wonderful act! It is only us that can make it an eternal hell.

To Be Continued…
 
yknow, that is one of my biggest questions when it comes to god. i dont understand why a loving, caring god would condemn me to eternal suffering because of something i did in the very short time i was on earth? i think the fires of hell would at the very least need to be redeeming fires, and be a way into heaven, otherwise its just punishment to punishments own end, and to me, doesnt at all enforce what jesus taught about god. the concept of hell is something i dont understand, but i will say, i dont think anyone has to stay anyplace forever…
 
Hell is simply being surrounded by God’s love when you are incapable of receiving that love because you do not love God back. It is like the difference between looking at bright light with healthy eyes, which causes no discomfort, and looking at the same light with diseased eyes, which causes much suffering.

John
 
I was talking to a friend the other night who raised an interesting question for which I could not give him a satisfactory answer. He asked whether an evil act committed in time deserved *eternal *damnation in hell. ?
an evil act in time does not merit damnation. the eternal choice made in the individual judgement at the moment of death, with full knowledge of the consequences which God grants at that moment when one is face to face with him, to reject God and choose evil for all time merits damnation, and this is an act one commits against oneself, in full knowledge and free will.
 
Hell is simply being surrounded by God’s love when you are incapable of receiving that love because you do not love God back. It is like the difference between looking at bright light with healthy eyes, which causes no discomfort, and looking at the same light with diseased eyes, which causes much suffering.

John
but doesnt that take gods role in hell out of the equation? i mean, god created all things, hell included, for a purpose, but under your definition, hell is controlled by the person there, as far as im understanding. i grew up understanding hell as the absence of god, and being out of his sight. my personal belief has evolved to, the only people who go to hell are those who believe they have sinned against what they believe is right, and those who want to be punished. no one is forced to stay there, and they can accept that they have served their penance for whatever transgressions they believe theyve made and move on, or continue suffering because they think they deserve to.
i guess your idea and mine arent too far apart, in respect that its the occupant who dictates what hell is…
 
We can never fully understand how amazing goodness is and how terrible evil is.

Think about it this way. A small prayer such as a Hail Mary or an Our Father can do more good than we can ever imagine. In fact when you go to confession and you recieve a penance, sometimes it may be something like 1 Our father. If some simple act of goodness like 1 Our Father can make up for all of the sins that you have confessed and restore the goodness within you and through this give you eternal life in heaven. It stands to reason that 1 evil act can have the opposite effect of eternal damnation.
 
We can never fully understand how amazing goodness is and how terrible evil is.

Think about it this way. A small prayer such as a Hail Mary or an Our Father can do more good than we can ever imagine. In fact when you go to confession and you recieve a penance, sometimes it may be something like 1 Our father. If some simple act of goodness like 1 Our Father can make up for all of the sins that you have confessed and restore the goodness within you and through this give you eternal life in heaven. It stands to reason that 1 evil act can have the opposite effect of eternal damnation.
im not catholic, so im not completely understanding of what an our father represents, but regardless, im gonna comment and ask something.
if thats a form of penance, how is it an act of good? shouldnt “good” be something beneficial to others, as opposed to doing something self-serving?
 
It’s not just the evil act that results in Hell–but also the obstinate choice to cling to it rather than be open to the love of God. The one who obstinately clings to his mortal sin to death persevering in final impenitence, has chosen that over the love of God. Love, the ultimate good, is freely offered and freely accepted. Those who do not accept it are left with their sins, which cause them torment.
 
Frankly, I think we should all pray real hard that God is not just. Because if God is just, we’re screwed.

I do sometimes wonder, though, if perhaps hell and pergatory are one and the same and that pergatory requires a reconciliation to God that some people simply refuse (Satan being the best example) thus making it eternal hell for them.
 
i grew up understanding hell as the absence of god, and being out of his sight.
God is omnipresent. There is nowhere where you can escape God’s presence.
my personal belief has evolved to, the only people who go to hell are those who believe they have sinned against what they believe is right, and those who want to be punished. no one is forced to stay there, and they can accept that they have served their penance for whatever transgressions they believe theyve made and move on, or continue suffering because they think they deserve to.
We are given one life to repent, after death we can no longer change our disposition towards God. God can, however, change our disposition towards Him after our death, which is why we pray for our dearly departed and perform acts of charity in their name.
Read the parable of the Prodigal Son again but this time focus on the older brother. He is loved by his father just as much as is his younger brother yet he refuses to enter the house to join in the banquet. His attitude is not that of a son who has everything his father has, but rather that of a hired worker who expects to be recompensed for his efforts. The younger son was able to humble himself and repent, thereby being able to receive his father’s love. The older son however, is unable to receive his father’s love out of his own pride. The father’s love is the same. For one son it is heaven, for the other it is hell.

John
 
God is omnipresent. There is nowhere where you can escape God’s presence.
We are given one life to repent, after death we can no longer change our disposition towards God. God can, however, change our disposition towards Him after our death, which is why we pray for our dearly departed and perform acts of charity in their name.
Read the parable of the Prodigal Son again but this time focus on the older brother. He is loved by his father just as much as is his younger brother yet he refuses to enter the house to join in the banquet. His attitude is not that of a son who has everything his father has, but rather that of a hired worker who expects to be recompensed for his efforts. The younger son was able to humble himself and repent, thereby being able to receive his father’s love. The older son however, is unable to receive his father’s love out of his own pride. The father’s love is the same. For one son it is heaven, for the other it is hell.

John
so basically i can do whatever i want so long as i change my mind before i die?
 
Frankly, I think we should all pray real hard that God is not just. Because if God is just, we’re screwed.
Amen! (which is probably why more people prefer the Divine Mercy chaplet to the Divine Justice one. 😉 😉 😉 )
I do sometimes wonder, though, if perhaps hell and pergatory are one and the same and that pergatory requires a reconciliation to God that some people simply refuse (Satan being the best example) thus making it eternal hell for them.
C.S. Lewis had a similar idea - have you read his book, “The Great Divorce”?👍
 
iaskquestions

Is heaven a fair reward?

Best comment yet!!!
I think asking questions in return is the best way to tackle questions like “is hell fair punishment”, Jesus also did that on many occasions. That’s why I ASK QUESTIONS! 🙂
 
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