Is hell lost opportunity: the damned are happy there but those in heaven see misery by comparison?

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Hell will only be eternal misery for me ifit is a void of nothing. Hell with fire and suffering is not true pain. Keeping a human way from other humans by force is. We are social creatures and any kind of interaction is better then none.
With all due respect that’s not yours or my call.

We wouldn’t even know about hell or its existence in the first place, if it wasn’t for God revealing it to us that there is such a place and what it’s like.

I think there are way toooooooo many references to the"fire of hell" to be a metaphore for pain or misery, or what ever.
  • and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire. (Matt. 5:21-22)
  • If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48; see also Matt. 5:29-30; 18:8-9)
  • “The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell” (Jas. 3:6).
  • The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. (Matt. 13:42)
  • Then he will say to those at his left hand, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”. . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matt. 25:31-46)
  • John the Baptist described the eternity of hell as “unquenchable fire” (Luke 3:17).
  • “undergoing a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 7).
  • Lk 16: 22. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’
 
With all due respect that’s not yours or my call.

We wouldn’t even know about hell or its existence in the first place, if it wasn’t for God revealing it to us that there is such a place and what it’s like.

I think there are way toooooooo many references to the"fire of hell" to be a metaphore for pain or misery, or what ever.
  • and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire. (Matt. 5:21-22)
  • If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48; see also Matt. 5:29-30; 18:8-9)
  • “The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell” (Jas. 3:6).
  • The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. (Matt. 13:42)
  • Then he will say to those at his left hand, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”. . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matt. 25:31-46)
  • John the Baptist described the eternity of hell as “unquenchable fire” (Luke 3:17).
  • “undergoing a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 7).
  • Lk 16: 22. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’
I’m talking about what my own personal Hell would be like. That’s what would be Hell for me I am not saying that is what Hell looks like though and so never claimed that it would look like that.
 
there is nothing even remotely good about hell. Eternal misery begins from the moment of entrance Hell
You will understand why I may not have chosen to click on your link as I am somewhat reluctant to enter Hell even when invited in such a way…

And certainly Hell might be the mere absence of goodness…it might be a lake of fire, though it seems unclear as to how an immortal soul bereft of body might experience the type of physical pain that fire might provide…

Alternately it might be a state of being…or it might be what one experiences in God’s presence when one is not properly prepared (much as one who is not habituated to participating in the mass might find the entire ordeal somewhat dull to the point of hellishness…).

Further it is possible that Hell is nothing like any experience possible to explain…or it may be what a soul might experience while being destroyed…or then again it might simply not exist at all…
 
You will understand why I may not have chosen to click on your link as I am somewhat reluctant to enter Hell even when invited in such a way…

And certainly Hell might be the mere absence of goodness…it might be a lake of fire, though it seems unclear as to how an immortal soul bereft of body might experience the type of physical pain that fire might provide…

Alternately it might be a state of being…or it might be what one experiences in God’s presence when one is not properly prepared (much as one who is not habituated to participating in the mass might find the entire ordeal somewhat dull to the point of hellishness…).

Further it is possible that Hell is nothing like any experience possible to explain…or it may be what a soul might experience while being destroyed…or then again it might simply not exist at all…
That link I posted goes to the Catholic encyclopedia. It’s a safe site 🙂

To summarize,

Hell exists. And there is NOTHING good about it, or in it.
  • as for the soul, it is immortal. Once created by God at our conception, It lives forever. Unlike the body which is mortal, it lives, it dies, the soul otoh doesn’t sleep it doesn’t die. It has memory intellect and will … forever. As souls we have full awareness even without the body. But without a body we aren’t complete. The completeness is restored at the end of the world when body and soul are reunited. That doesn’t mean souls without a body in hell in the afterlife, don’t suffer unimaginably, or that souls in heaven don’t experience unimanigable joy. Memory intellect and will, powers of the soul, allow us to experience the next life.
  • even more so when body and soul are reunited
Hell and heaven are outside of time. There is no clock in eternity. Time is nonexistant. Yesterday, today and tommorrow, don’t exist in eternity. It’s just the eternal now.

At death, body and soul seperate. The body goes to the grave, the soul goes to either heaven, or purgatory then heaven, or it goes to Hell.

At the end of the world whenever that is, ALL the bodies of everyone who have ever lived are resurrected. Souls in heaven are now in heaven body and soul. Souls in hell are now body and soul in hell.

forever.
 
That link I posted goes to the Catholic encyclopedia. It’s a safe site 🙂
I am sorry to have doubted you! 😉
To summarize,

Hell exists. And there is NOTHING good about it, or in it.
  • as for the soul, it is immortal. Once created by God at our conception, It lives forever. Unlike the body which is mortal, it lives, it dies, the soul otoh doesn’t sleep it doesn’t die. It has memory intellect and will … forever. As souls we have full awareness even without the body. But without a body we aren’t complete. The completeness is restored at the end of the world when body and soul are reunited. That doesn’t mean souls without a body in hell in the afterlife, don’t suffer unimaginably, or that souls in heaven don’t experience unimanigable joy. Memory intellect and will, powers of the soul, allow us to experience the next life.
  • even more so when body and soul are reunited
Hell and heaven are outside of time. There is no clock in eternity. Time is nonexistant. Yesterday, today and tommorrow, don’t exist in eternity. It’s just the eternal now.

At death, body and soul seperate. The body goes to the grave, the soul goes to either heaven, or purgatory then heaven, or it goes to Hell.

At the end of the world whenever that is, ALL the bodies of everyone who have ever lived are resurrected. Souls in heaven are now in heaven body and soul. Souls in hell are now body and soul in hell.

forever.
Well that is fairly unfortunate if true.

One question that I have, though, is that if the soul after death is to exist in an eternal now, how might it ever there arrive? For if there is to be imagined a moment prior to the soul’s arrival, would that not then suggest that a form of temporal measurement is possible? If so, how could time yet not pass?

It is a fascinating subject to consider for certain…
 
I am sorry to have doubted you! 😉
No problem
J:
Well that is fairly unfortunate if true.
I had an atheist friend who I’ve lost touch with, but one of our last conversations dealt with this subject.

To cut to the chase, I just said at the end of the conversation, If you’re right Mike, and I’m wrong, and there is nothing after this life, then there is no harm no foul. It’s just over. But if I’m right and you’re wrong, you’re screwed.

I admit it wasn’t said very eloquently but that’s what I said. And actually he laughed.
J:
One question that I have, though, is that if the soul after death is to exist in an eternal now, how might it ever there arrive? For if there is to be imagined a moment prior to the soul’s arrival, would that not then suggest that a form of temporal measurement is possible? If so, how could time yet not pass?
Once the soul is created by God at our conception, it is immortal. And since the soul is immortal, it doesn’t age.

Since we live in time and space, that’s how we think. And we use temporal measurement thinking in order to quantify things for purposes of being able to communicate ideas… We can’t get our head around eternity and eternal realities. But those realities in the next life really are there. The only reason we know this is becauise the one who created everything had to reveal it to us. Otherwise it’s all one big guess.
J:
It is a fascinating subject to consider for certain…
It is for certain. 🙂
 
No problem

I had an atheist friend who I’ve lost touch with, but one of our last conversations dealt with this subject.

To cut to the chase, I just said at the end of the conversation, If you’re right Mike, and I’m wrong, and there is nothing after this life, then there is no harm no foul. It’s just over. But if I’m right and you’re wrong, you’re screwed.

I admit it wasn’t said very eloquently but that’s what I said. And actually he laughed.
Yes, I once considered Pascal’s Wager (and even converted an atheist cousin with the reasoning), but the difficulty I ran into later in life was that taken to the extreme: it is possible that there may be no pleasing God, which makes each and every choice in life a series of such wagers. Let me try to explain:

My road to unbelief was through zealotry. As a zealot I sought extreme applications for God’s teachings and as a zealot I could not simply pause and step back and consider moderations of His message. Therefor when I was considering each step of how I should live my life I would first ponder how it might relate to the desires of an infinite being. I would consider that the greater one’s knowledge of God and His desires, the greater would be His expectations of perfection. In such a vein I would then frequently analyze any activity to ensure that it might best serve God’s aims. Here is one real example which occurred over the span of several months, but which lasted for over 7 years:

I derived a deep enjoyment of music and considered it a fine pass-time, but I realized that some of my music was less appropriate than other songs and so began removing them from my library. Paradoxically, many of my most favored songs were eliminated in this manner as my winnowing cut closer and closer. It was not that I was scrupulous, but simply reasoning that a song, which would sing about seeking someone to love was no longer appropriate given my married state or a song singing about partying seemed somewhat frivolous considering the state of the poor in the world. At the end I merely reasoned that I should give up music altogether for entertainment purposes for what would such a distraction serve when compared to how much time could be spent in prayer and spiritual reading? I restricted myself to Gregorian Chant and a handful of spiritually uplifting tunes.

The chief consideration was whether one truly believed that one was preparing on Earth to spend an eternity in worship of God. I reasoned that if one was, the purpose of life on Earth was to improve oneself in such an area by setting aside distractions in order to focus solely on God. I further reasoned that no sacrifice should be too great to show one’s love of their creator. For if one should choose music over God would not one’s true belief of mankind’s purpose be in jeopardy of being exposed as a falsehood? I considered the way of Thomas A Kempis in that all of life’s pursuits were mere vanity, a distraction in one’s life-long goal of focusing on God–and since one could not have more than a single great love, and that God should prove the greater in any choice, I abandoned all of my Earthly pursuits, focusing and refining so that all inspiration and light emanated from God rather than from things.

This progressed for 7 years, during which my young family was kept living in such austerity and single-minded purpose that naturally events such as Halloween was outlawed in our home as well as a discussion that there should be no Santa mixing with Christmas. Rosary, Pieta prayers, Cenacle, and penance were foremost.

One day, however, I awoke and realized that my life had been drained of all pleasure. In effect, I was bored–and boring to be with. To admit that one might be capable of being bored with God is a bit of a problem and it speaks to your wager because if one might even go to the ends of the Earth for God how is one ever certain that it might ever be enough? How is one certain where an infinite God might draw a firm line and disagree that keeping the Sabbath Holy might not mean feel free to relax and watch football, but instead mean alternately to do nothing Earthly minded and spend the entire day in prayer and works of mercy?

For is it truly good enough merely to have a belief in God? Must one not equally be quite certain of the requirements and limits of said belief?

For what purpose is there in believing in God without pleasing Him? Would one not still be open for punishment?

Regardless, please do not take the above as a reason to disregard the existence of God. I am not quite certain that such would be wise.
Once the soul is created by God at our conception, it is immortal. And since the soul is immortal, it doesn’t age.

Since we live in time and space, that’s how we think. And we use temporal measurement thinking in order to quantify things for purposes of being able to communicate ideas… We can’t get our head around eternity and eternal realities. But those realities in the next life really are there. The only reason we know this is becauise the one who created everything had to reveal it to us. Otherwise it’s all one big guess.

It is for certain. 🙂
 
Yes, I once considered Pascal’s Wager (and even converted an atheist cousin with the reasoning), but the difficulty I ran into later in life was that taken to the extreme: it is possible that there may be no pleasing God, which makes each and every choice in life a series of such wagers. Let me try to explain:

My road to unbelief was through zealotry. As a zealot I sought extreme applications for God’s teachings and as a zealot I could not simply pause and step back and consider moderations of His message. Therefor when I was considering each step of how I should live my life I would first ponder how it might relate to the desires of an infinite being. I would consider that the greater one’s knowledge of God and His desires, the greater would be His expectations of perfection. In such a vein I would then frequently analyze any activity to ensure that it might best serve God’s aims. Here is one real example which occurred over the span of several months, but which lasted for over 7 years:

I derived a deep enjoyment of music and considered it a fine pass-time, but I realized that some of my music was less appropriate than other songs and so began removing them from my library. Paradoxically, many of my most favored songs were eliminated in this manner as my winnowing cut closer and closer. It was not that I was scrupulous, but simply reasoning that a song, which would sing about seeking someone to love was no longer appropriate given my married state or a song singing about partying seemed somewhat frivolous considering the state of the poor in the world. At the end I merely reasoned that I should give up music altogether for entertainment purposes for what would such a distraction serve when compared to how much time could be spent in prayer and spiritual reading? I restricted myself to Gregorian Chant and a handful of spiritually uplifting tunes.

The chief consideration was whether one truly believed that one was preparing on Earth to spend an eternity in worship of God. I reasoned that if one was, the purpose of life on Earth was to improve oneself in such an area by setting aside distractions in order to focus solely on God. I further reasoned that no sacrifice should be too great to show one’s love of their creator. For if one should choose music over God would not one’s true belief of mankind’s purpose be in jeopardy of being exposed as a falsehood? I considered the way of Thomas A Kempis in that all of life’s pursuits were mere vanity, a distraction in one’s life-long goal of focusing on God–and since one could not have more than a single great love, and that God should prove the greater in any choice, I abandoned all of my Earthly pursuits, focusing and refining so that all inspiration and light emanated from God rather than from things.

This progressed for 7 years, during which my young family was kept living in such austerity and single-minded purpose that naturally events such as Halloween was outlawed in our home as well as a discussion that there should be no Santa mixing with Christmas. Rosary, Pieta prayers, Cenacle, and penance were foremost.

One day, however, I awoke and realized that my life had been drained of all pleasure. In effect, I was bored–and boring to be with. To admit that one might be capable of being bored with God is a bit of a problem and it speaks to your wager because if one might even go to the ends of the Earth for God how is one ever certain that it might ever be enough? How is one certain where an infinite God might draw a firm line and disagree that keeping the Sabbath Holy might not mean feel free to relax and watch football, but instead mean alternately to do nothing Earthly minded and spend the entire day in prayer and works of mercy?

For is it truly good enough merely to have a belief in God? Must one not equally be quite certain of the requirements and limits of said belief?

For what purpose is there in believing in God without pleasing Him? Would one not still be open for punishment?

Regardless, please do not take the above as a reason to disregard the existence of God. I am not quite certain that such would be wise.
just thinking outloud, zealotry and scrupulosity have similarities.

From the Catholic dictionary.

Zealot:
  1. a Jewish member of a radical, violent group bitterly opposed to Roman domination of Palestine. The group was especially active during the century in which Christ lived on earth. The present-day use of the word “zealot,” to mean a fanatical enthusiast, derives from this group’s name; 2. Simon was one of the Twelve Apostles. He was referred to in the New Testament as Simon the Zealot (Luke 6:15) to distinguish him from Simon Peter. He had probably been a member of the Jewish group until his conversion to Christianity. (Etym. Latin zelotes; from Greek z_l_t_s; from z_los, zeal.)
Scrupulosity:
The habit of imagining sin where none exists, or grave sin where the matter is venial. To overcome scrupulosity, a person needs to be properly instructed in order to form a right conscience, and in extreme cases the only remedy is absolute obedience (for a time) to a prudent confessor.

if we reflect on Jesus, He did everything perfectly but wasn’t scrupulous. He had great zeal for His mission, but I wouldn’t call Him a zealot.

You mentioned the magic emotion, love

What made the difference is, Jesus did everything with great love.

therefore, we need to do the same
 
just thinking outloud, zealotry and scrupulosity have similarities.

From the Catholic dictionary.

Zealot:
  1. a Jewish member of a radical, violent group bitterly opposed to Roman domination of Palestine. The group was especially active during the century in which Christ lived on earth. The present-day use of the word “zealot,” to mean a fanatical enthusiast, derives from this group’s name; 2. Simon was one of the Twelve Apostles. He was referred to in the New Testament as Simon the Zealot (Luke 6:15) to distinguish him from Simon Peter. He had probably been a member of the Jewish group until his conversion to Christianity. (Etym. Latin zelotes; from Greek z_l_t_s; from z_los, zeal.)
Scrupulosity:
The habit of imagining sin where none exists, or grave sin where the matter is venial. To overcome scrupulosity, a person needs to be properly instructed in order to form a right conscience, and in extreme cases the only remedy is absolute obedience (for a time) to a prudent confessor.

if we reflect on Jesus, He did everything perfectly but wasn’t scrupulous. He had great zeal for His mission, but I wouldn’t call Him a zealot.

You mentioned the magic emotion, love

What made the difference is, Jesus did everything with great love.

therefore, we need to do the same
They have some similar effects, but some marked differences:

I never imagined that I was committing sins while listening to music that was not worthy; I simply considered whether it was the best use of my limited time on Earth. Certainly none of these issues made their way into my confessions.

And you are correct, love, as an emotion or bonding experience, was largely absent from my decisions. I considered the teaching of God’s love to be a product of the 70s and a corruption or softening of His Righteous Justice. My mentality was more appropriate to a previous generation.
 
I do think we have to say that those who go to hell are getting what they want. It seems unjust to say hell is simply a punishment, when an individual who goes to hell might have otherwise chosen God and Heaven if he lived in a different place, or hadn’t met this or that person, etc.
This is not church teaching. If a person is *invincibly ignorant *-- in other words, has no way of knowing about God – they are not condemned to hell.
 
This is not church teaching. If a person is *invincibly ignorant *-- in other words, has no way of knowing about God – they are not condemned to hell.
Not quite. An invincibly ignorant person still undergoes judgement, and may go to either Heaven or Hell, but he is not culpable for deeds he did because of the ignorance. It is not a “get-out-of-Hell-free” card.
 
Not quite. An invincibly ignorant person still undergoes judgement, and may go to either Heaven or Hell, but he is not culpable for deeds he did because of the ignorance. It is not a “get-out-of-Hell-free” card.
What about a person who does not completely understand the bible? Im referring to the many verses that are fairly difficult to determine whether they are supposed to be taken literally, symbolic of something else, metaphors, etc? I mean, its one thing to pick up a book, read it, finish it and understand the book, not that easy when it comes to the bible, there are MANY different interpretations of verses, I know the catechism is supposed to do that for us, but what if you find yourself not believing in that particular interpretation? Its tough to read something, make a decision on what you think it means, then hear another person say it means something totally different…how are we expected to just ‘accept’ something we dont truly believe is correct…that is a VERY tough thing to do,if its even possible.

Each person has their own beliefs about things, when they read things, different people come up with different ideas on what it means, whose to say anyone of them is wrong?
 
What about a person who does not completely understand the bible? Im referring to the many verses that are fairly difficult to determine whether they are supposed to be taken literally, symbolic of something else, metaphors, etc? I mean, its one thing to pick up a book, read it, finish it and understand the book, not that easy when it comes to the bible, there are MANY different interpretations of verses, I know the catechism is supposed to do that for us, but what if you find yourself not believing in that particular interpretation? Its tough to read something, make a decision on what you think it means, then hear another person say it means something totally different…how are we expected to just ‘accept’ something we dont truly believe is correct…that is a VERY tough thing to do,if its even possible.

Each person has their own beliefs about things, when they read things, different people come up with different ideas on what it means, whose to say anyone of them is wrong?
The Church infallibly interprets Sacred Scripture. By listening to the teachings of the Magisterium we are informed of the meaning of the Bible. This is the fatal flaw of sola scriptura, which has no Magisterum and no Tradition.
 
Well,I’ve heard something similar to what the OP talks about.

It’s by a Protestant,so it may not be in line with the Church’s teachings,but it’s still an interesting position:

youtube.com/watch?v=JWnsjOL0tQ8
 
Not quite. An invincibly ignorant person still undergoes judgement, and may go to either Heaven or Hell, but he is not culpable for deeds he did because of the ignorance. It is not a “get-out-of-Hell-free” card.
Perhaps I could have been more clear. What I meant is that simply not knowing God is not an automatic condemnation.
 
What about a person who does not completely understand the bible? Im referring to the many verses that are fairly difficult to determine whether they are supposed to be taken literally, symbolic of something else, metaphors, etc? I mean, its one thing to pick up a book, read it, finish it and understand the book, not that easy when it comes to the bible, there are MANY different interpretations of verses, I know the catechism is supposed to do that for us, but what if you find yourself not believing in that particular interpretation? Its tough to read something, make a decision on what you think it means, then hear another person say it means something totally different…how are we expected to just ‘accept’ something we dont truly believe is correct…that is a VERY tough thing to do,if its even possible.

Each person has their own beliefs about things, when they read things, different people come up with different ideas on what it means, whose to say anyone of them is wrong?
When it comes to the scriptures, the Church has pronounced infallibly only on those that are the bases for church doctrines. That’s a surprisingly few passages. As Catholics, we are blessed to have the magisterium and the leadership of the Pope. Jesus has promised us that the church will always prevail so we can trust that all the Church teaches is truth. We may not understand it, but we must believe it, and ask God for the wisdom to accept this teaching.

Aside from that, there are many different interpretations for many of the passages, and that’s what makes the Bible such a treasure in our daily lives. We could read the same passage every day and find something new in it with every reading. I took a course recently in Lectio Divina, which is reading the bible interpretively. The priest who taught the course quoted St. Ephrem on reading and interpreting the Bible, who said (I’m paraphrasing here) that reading scripture is like drinking from a fountain. No matter how thirsty you are you can never drink it dry. Be glad that your thirst was satisfied and that there is still plenty for the next time you need it. What you have taken is your portion; what has been left behind is your inheritance. St. Ephrem also said that anyone reading the scripture shouldn’t imagine that their interpretation is the only possible one, but simply the only one they were able to discover.
 
Well,I’ve heard something similar to what the OP talks about.

It’s by a Protestant,so it may not be in line with the Church’s teachings,but it’s still an interesting position:

youtube.com/watch?v=JWnsjOL0tQ8
That’s a very good sermon, I didn’t hear anything heretical in it 😃 I especially liked the quote from C.S. Lewis
In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of hell is itself a question: ‘What are you asking God to do?’ To wipe out past sins and, at all costs, give them a fresh start? He did, on Calvary. To forgive them? But they don’t ask to be forgiven. To leave them alone? That’s what hell is.
 
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