Is Heresy believeing on Empty Hell?

[devonsams]

Hi, i was in a debate with a catholic Friend, he said to me that it is impossible that everybody will be saved in the end, and therefore I can’t be a catholic hoping on Universal Salvation.

Otherwise I told him that some theologias such as Urs Von Balthasar consider this possibility, and once the Church never told of a person that is in hell, in opposition of saints that are surely in heaven, we could pray and consider that even if it is a small possibility, but it is theoretically possible.

So what the church says about it? The Magisterium confirms the impossibility of Universal Salvation and confirms that there people will be condemned?

 

[snarflemike]

Put it this way. Just as God desires that all be saved, so we can desire that all be saved. We just can’t declare that they will all be saved.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Just because we can’t say definitively that a particular soul is in hell, certainly doesn’t mean that hell is empty. Christ would not warn us of the dangers of hell, or warn us of how narrow the road to salvation is.

 

[KrazyKat]

Many have been shown hell, definitely people there! One of the reasons the three children at Fatima sacrificed so much.

 

[owensjo]

My understanding is that the Church has never said definitively that anyone is in hell. Furthermore, hell was made for the devil and his angels, not man, .So while we cannot say that everyone will be saved, we can certainly hope for it when we pray.

 

[Dranu]

My understanding is that the Church has never said definitively that anyone is in hell.

Agreed (at least to humans). Certainly it is doctrine that the fallen angels are in hell. However, a common tradition and testimony of saints is that hell is populated by men, and, in many cases, that this is going to be the fate of most of us. Also Christ suggests of Judas that it is better that he would have never been born. That serious implies Judas is in hell.

At the very least, hell is a serious threat, though, as Owensjo says, we should pray and hope for as much universal salvation as is possible!

 

[Rocky24]

My understanding is that the Church has never said definitively that anyone is in hell. Furthermore, hell was made for the devil and his angels, not man, .So while we cannot say that everyone will be saved, we can certainly hope for it when we pray.

From St. John Neumann:

‘Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.’

And St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church:

‘The greater number of men still say to God: Lord we will not serve Thee; we would rather be slaves of the devil, and condemned to Hell, than be Thy servants. Alas! The greatest number, my Jesus - we may say nearly all - not only do not love Thee, but offend Thee and despise Thee. How many countries there are in which there are scarcely any Catholics, and all the rest either infidels or heretics! And all of them are certainly on the way to being lost.’

 

[Julian0404]

Suggest the following book from TAN publishers “Life Everlasting” by Garrigou-Lagrange and it is a theological treatise on the four last things - death, judgment, heaven and hell. And one major point is that once in hell a soul can neither receive merit or remove demerits. The soul’s state of mortal sin is fixed - so no, hell will never be empty.

 

[Anthony_V]

Suggest the following book from TAN publishers “Life Everlasting” by Garrigou-Lagrange and it is a theological treatise on the four last things - death, judgment, heaven and hell. And one major point is that once in hell a soul can neither receive merit or remove demerits. The soul’s state of mortal sin is fixed - so no, hell will never be empty.

I keep forgetting how much Garrigou-Lagrange and von Balthasar didn’t like each other. I nearly wonder if Balthasar intentionally wrote Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? just to peeve him off. Do you know if Henri De Lubac, Karl Rahner, or Edward Schillebeeckx wrote anything along those lines?

 

[owensjo]

From St. John Neumann:

And St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church:

All the same, it is difficult for me to believe that Jesus Christ endured all he endured, with the end result that only a few will be saved. While every soul is precious, and while I believe He would have suffered for me even if I were the only person in the world, I can’t help but think that his sacrifice is much more effectual than stated by some of the saints (who do not necessarily represent official Church teaching in some of their writings. At least some of what they write are their thoughts on things, and the outlook on some matters has changed or evolved over the centuries). I also believe that God gives us one last chance to repent, which is when we ourselves decide whether we want to go to hell or not. Which is why we should never stop praying for the conversion of sinners. .

 

[raikou]

Why even bother to make Hell if it would be empty?

All the same, it is difficult for me to believe that Jesus Christ endured all he endured, with the end result that only a few will be saved. While every soul is precious, and while I believe He would have suffered for me even if I were the only person in the world, I can’t help but think that his sacrifice is much more effectual than stated by some of the saints (who do not necessarily represent official Church teaching in some of their writings. At least some of what they write are their thoughts on things, and the outlook on some matters has changed or evolved over the centuries). I also believe that God gives us one last chance to repent, which is when we ourselves decide whether we want to go to hell or not. Which is why we should never stop praying for the conversion of sinners. .

I also believe that the graciousness of God does make it easier for man to be saved. I believe that God is being patient and is not wasting any opportunity to convert a sinner. However, this mercy is not a reason to presume that no one will go to hell because itbalso depends on human free will.

The depths of God’s mercy even confirm the menacing reality of Hell. Those who go there are souls who freely reject or ignore God’s efforts to save them, even the death of of the Son of God on the Cross. Those who are ungrateful in the face of the goodness God has shown them - aren’t they more guilty? Will God’s infinite justice spare them who have scorned his infinite mercy? God is always willing to welcome and help the repentant sinner to mend his ways. But he cannot help a person who does not want his help and refuse to cooperate with him.

Also remember the many occasions in the Gospels where Hell is preached: the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the undying worm, the fires of Gehenna, the burning of the weeds at the end of age, the resurrection to condemnation. I think the Bible had been very clear on hell and the Church confirms it in the Catechism.

 

[Rocky24]

All the same, it is difficult for me to believe that Jesus Christ endured all he endured, with the end result that only a few will be saved. While every soul is precious, and while I believe He would have suffered for me even if I were the only person in the world, I can’t help but think that his sacrifice is much more effectual than stated by some of the saints (who do not necessarily represent official Church teaching in some of their writings. At least some of what they write are their thoughts on things, and the outlook on some matters has changed or evolved over the centuries). I also believe that God gives us one last chance to repent, which is when we ourselves decide whether we want to go to hell or not. Which is why we should never stop praying for the conversion of sinners. .

“Outlooks” on matters may have changed, but Divine Justice has not. Again, to quote St. Alphonsus, a Doctor of the Church:

"Whoever prays obtains this grace; but whoever prays not, obtains it not, and is lost. And this is more especially the case with regard to the grace of final perseverance, of dying in the grace of God, which is the grace absolutely necessary for our salvation, and without which we should be lost forever. St. Augustine says of this grace, that God only bestows it on those who pray. And this is the reason why so few are saved, because few indeed are mindful to beg of God this grace of perseverance.’

God gives us the means to be saved. He wants us to be saved! Grace is necessary to salvation, because without it we can do nothing to merit Heaven. Because of free will, we can resist and ignore the grace that God gives to us.
Have a look here on Catholic Answers: catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is
And yes, it is very important to pray for the conversion of sinners! Our Lady appeared at Fatima and taught this prayer to us:

*O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy. *

 

[owensjo]

We can beg for graces for each other. I believe that God, in his saving plan, chooses some souls to intercede for other souls through prayer and sacrifice, and gives them the graces to do so. In this way, more souls will be saved than otherwise would be. Saint Faustina, in her conversations with Jesus, prayed many times for mercy for sinners, and because of her faith and trust her prayers were answered. Therefore I still maintain that while everyone will probably not be saved, far more are saved than some of the saints believed.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The Church teaches that there is a hell and that those in hell suffer there for eternity. So, it is heresy to claim that perhaps those in hell may one day be freed from hell and be saved or that they may one day just cease to exist.

Now, is there anyone in hell? Well, it would be pointless for a place or state to exist if no one was in said place or state. But, is anyone there? Well, we do know that Lucifer and a third of the angels were cast into hell (cf. Lk 10:18, Rev 12:4). It would also appear that Judas was lost in his betrayal and subsequent despair to hell (cf. Mt 26:24, Jn 17:12).

Beyond these, there is no official teaching that any particular person is in hell. We are not the ultimate judges of a person’s soul, only God is. You never know if, by the grace of God, even the most vile of sinners may at the last moment repent and be saved.

Be watchful, that YOU will not be one of those lost to eternal fire.

 

[MidnightSun12]

With regards to the topic: Pope Pius condemned the following statement in his November 1459 letter, Cum Sicut:

"717b (2) That all Christians are to be saved."

Saying that nobody goes to hell, is not a possible position for a Catholic to hold.

We can beg for graces for each other. I believe that God, in his saving plan, chooses some souls to intercede for other souls through prayer and sacrifice, and gives them the graces to do so. In this way, more souls will be saved than otherwise would be. Saint Faustina, in her conversations with Jesus, prayed many times for mercy for sinners, and because of her faith and trust her prayers were answered. Therefore I still maintain that while everyone will probably not be saved, far more are saved than some of the saints believed.

Don’t forget that St. Faustina had also said this:

"…I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end without realizing it. And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And their number was so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings"

• Diary 153

There appears to be great consistency among countless Saints about the fewness of those that will get to heaven (and some of these Saints have even experienced private revelation with regards to this topic). The Saints are the experts in the field of heaven and hell, and I would be very hesitant to disregard the word of one expert, much less the consensus of hundreds of them.

But let’s say, hypothetically, that the overwhelming consensus of the Saints somehow was incorrect and that the majority of people are saved. Even in this case, it would still make the most sense to live your life under the assumption that few will be saved (it would just be an unexpected surprise when you got to heaven). If, on the other hand, a person lived his/her life under the assumption that many will be saved and he/she became comfortable emulating the lives of the multitude, if it then turned out that few are saved then this person would be in big trouble come judgment day.

The only people we know for sure are in heaven are the Saints and we, therefore, have to try to be Saints.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Hell may be empty, it may not be empty. Really, it’s irrelevant to speculate, as it is outside of our necessary knowledge. We know that it exists, and we know that we risk damnation by disobeying God. But I feel I must say something more than just this simple answer, as people tend to let Hell become the focal point of faith, as opposed to confidence in Christ Jesus:

Fear of hell (which means to me, acknowledging that we are not immune to hell and that it is, in fact, horrific), is a good thing. But people take this too far. They turn Hell into almost the primary reason to avoid sin, or the main reason to embrace Christ. A confessor once told me that I must understand God’s mercy and love before I can understand His justice.

If we turn Hell into a primary, fearful motivator of our faith, we will surely fail. We must love God, and trust in Him entirely. If we ask Him for the Holy Spirit, for grace, for perseverance, for perfection in holiness and virtue, He WILL GIVE IT TO US. He promised us that if we ask persistently, HE WILL GIVE. When Jesus spoke of giving us good things, and asking and receiving, He wasn’t speaking about sports cars and the lottery. He was speaking of the Holy Spirit and spiritual things (and, yes, if in accordance with His will, corporeal things that we need).

Letting the fear of Hell overcome you and cause you to doubt yourself, is to doubt the ability of Jesus to work in you. He knows we are sinful and imperfect, and to let the fear of Hell oppress us because we doubt that we will persevere is to doubt God, as though He were too incompetent to answer our prayers for grace and perseverance. Have faith in the mercy and love of God. Ask Him for grace and perseverance (continually), and to work with your imperfection (continually). He will not deny these things.

Jesus, I trust in you!

1 John 4: 16-19:

So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because he first loved us.

 

[WhiteOnyx]

I believe that the mercy of God gives all a final chance to say yes.

 

[chimo]

Hi, i was in a debate with a catholic Friend, he said to me that it is impossible that everybody will be saved in the end, and therefore I can’t be a catholic hoping on Universal Salvation.

Otherwise I told him that some theologias such as Urs Von Balthasar consider this possibility, and once the Church never told of a person that is in hell, in opposition of saints that are surely in heaven, we could pray and consider that even if it is a small possibility, but it is theoretically possible.

So what the church says about it? The Magisterium confirms the impossibility of Universal Salvation and confirms that there people will be condemned?

If everyone can be saved at the end then why will Jesus have to come to end it? If He will empty Hell then why come? Since everyone will be saved Jesus does not need to come. But His Second Coming tells us otherwise. If He does not come than many will not be saved (here I am referring to those at the Final Coming of our Lord). I disagree respectively to those saints who say only a few would be saved. This is really only their opinion. God’s saving Graces has the potential to save a lot more than we can ever imagine. Did not Jesus revealed to St. Gertrude that whenever we receive Him in Holy Communion that something good happens to every one on the planet. Does this mean God saves a portion of His Graces at Mass for everyone on the planet? Does it mean God will reserve the Holy Spirit for those when necessary when they die? Surely God can do this? Why? Because we decided to receive Him in Holy Communion and He gives abundantly because of what His Son has accomplished and through the faith of His little ones. Why cannot God give more at Holy Communion and bank the Holy Spirit for those who have not yet know of Him. This deposit of Grace can be given to them before they die.

 

[HaveFaith8]

Origen, an early ecclesiastical writer at the time of the Church Fathers, I think was condemned for proposing such views that all would be saved, thus leaving Hell empty.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Origen, an early ecclesiastical writer at the time of the Church Fathers, I think was condemned for proposing such views that all would be saved, thus leaving Hell empty.

Yes, when I said ‘empty’, I meant devoid of human souls. The Devil and his angels are forever damned. But, however unlikely, it is theoretically possible that every person will choose Christ at the last moment.

Jesus taught that many would walk the way to destruction. However, we, as Christians, are obligated to hope for the salvation of every soul. Anything beyond that is speculation.