Is Hesychasm prayer approved by the Catholic Church?

[Wandile]

This is due to the fact that neo-platonism sees a sign (God’s external act) as participating in the essence. Westerners approach a sign differently. We are both saying the same thing. We just understand it differently.

But that’s the thing, Palamism says it’s impossible to participate in the essence of God as that is incommunicable and charge westerners with violating the Creator/creature distinction by asserting that we do interact with God’s essence. Palamism is a construct formed to explain how we don’t interact with Gods essence (as he sees the creature losing its creatureliness if that happens) and yet still truly be defied. Hence the divine energies which are not the divine not the essence in this framework and are communicable.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Saints do not have heresies named after them.

Not exactly correct… Nestorius is venerated by Churches in India afaik… or at least his anaphora is used. Nestorianism is a heresy. However, Nestorius himself has developed this heresy, but when Ecumenical Council ruled on the matter, he recanted his errors and retired into monastery- therefore he did not die in Schism from Catholic Church. While not held as a Saint by Greeks nor Latins, his veneration does not necessarily pose a problem because he did indeed recant his errors.

The essence-energy distinction being a real rather than a nominal distinction in God.

So as far as one does not hold real distinction, they are fine, correct?

 

[Wandile]

Tis_Bearself:

Saints do not have heresies named after them.

Not exactly correct… Nestorius is venerated by Churches in India afaik… or at least his anaphora is used. Nestorianism is a heresy. However, Nestorius himself has developed this heresy, but when Ecumenical Council ruled on the matter, he recanted his errors and retired into monastery- therefore he did not die in Schism from Catholic Church. While not held as a Saint by Greeks nor Latins, his veneration does not necessarily pose a problem because he did indeed recant his errors.

Your point is very good although it must be said as far as I’m aware Eastern Catholics don’t venerate nestorius but have an Anaphora named after him. However men like Palamas are allowed despite clear errors like his writings against the Filioque for example. Clearly the church by calling him a saint isn’t endorsing this. So your point still stands.

So as far as one does not hold real distinction, they are fine, correct?

Yes. As even the west makes a mental distinction between God’s essence and his operation but that’s all it is. A mental distinction that doesn’t actually exist in God.

 

[CRM_Brother]

But the passage you posted directly contradicts this. Palamas says that man participates in God through his energy. That energy is a sign of His essence. The energy thus participates in the essence. Then, man participates in God’s essence in a finite manner. Western theology also expresses this in the Uncreated Grace which unites our souls to God in the Divine Indwelling. Both sides are misunderstanding the other.

 

[EndTimes]

See paragraph 27 of this Vatican letter and the associated footnotes.

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

Yes… Eastern Mysticism was introduced … and should not have been

1. The expression “eastern methods” is used to refer to methods which are inspired by Hinduism and Buddhism, such as “Zen,” “Transcendental Meditation” or “Yoga.” Thus it indicates methods of meditation of the non-Christian Far East which today are not infrequently adopted by some Christians also in their meditation.

The orientation of the principles and methods contained in this present document is intended to serve as a reference point not just for this problem, but also, in a more general way, for the different forms of prayer practiced nowadays in ecclesial organizations, particularly in associations, movements and groups.

Why seek elsewhere than from the direct rich Spiritual Prayer via Faith In Jesus?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Your point is very good although it must be said as far as I’m aware Eastern Catholics don’t venerate nestorius but have an Anaphora named after him.

I wasn’t entirely sure about his veneration but kinda assumed it because of said Anaphora… thanks for correction.

However men like Palamas are allowed despite clear errors like his writings against the Filioque for example. Clearly the church by calling him a saint isn’t endorsing this. So your point still stands.

Yes. I think we can agree that theological errors do not impair someone from Sainthood… but Saints are Saints in spite of them, not thanks to them.

Yes. As even the west makes a mental distinction between God’s essence and his operation but that’s all it is. A mental distinction that doesn’t actually exist in God.

To my knowledge, Palamism as professed in Eastern Catholic Churches does not hold real distinction. Therefore if Eastern Catholic Churches profess this form of Palamism, they would be fine to do so.

 

[Wandile]

But the passage you posted directly contradicts this. Palamas says that man participates in God through his energy.

This the one thing you’re missing about Palamism. God is in both his essence and energies yet those two things are other in God. In their view at least (which is why they are constantly charged with violating divine simplicity). When they say we participate in God they mean his energies not his essence.

In fact the first time the west ever encountered Palamism was in the midsts of the Palamite controversy in the east. The Papal legate Paul of Smyrna (who was in the east for reunion talks with the emperor in 14th century) was assessing it as he didn’t understand what all the fuss was about and wrote about how Palamism was explained to him using Palamas’ writings :

“Then he wrote about the light which appeared upon Mt. Tabor, asserting that it was uncreated and [yet] was not God’s essence, but some sort of divine operation, which is a thing one cannot endure to hear: for nothing is uncreated apart from the divine essence.”

That energy is a sign of His essence. The energy thus participates in the essence. Then, man participates in God’s essence in a finite manner. Western theology also expresses this in the Uncreated Grace which unites our souls to God in the Divine Indwelling. Both sides are misunderstanding the other.

There is no blending of essence and energies in Palamism and many Palamites make this very clear. The essence is beyond anything and unreachable. It is only knowable to God. No creature even indirectly (Via his energies) participates in the essence of God as far as Palamism goes.

In the western view sanctifying grace is the life of God and the life of God is necessarily his essence. That it is truly God we encounter in grace and hence man is truly deified.

 

[Wandile]

Wandile:

Your point is very good although it must be said as far as I’m aware Eastern Catholics don’t venerate nestorius but have an Anaphora named after him.

I wasn’t entirely sure about his veneration but kinda assumed it because of said Anaphora… thanks for correction.

However men like Palamas are allowed despite clear errors like his writings against the Filioque for example. Clearly the church by calling him a saint isn’t endorsing this. So your point still stands.

Yes. I think we can agree that theological errors do not impair someone from Sainthood… but Saints are Saints in spite of them, not thanks to them.

Yes. As even the west makes a mental distinction between God’s essence and his operation but that’s all it is. A mental distinction that doesn’t actually exist in God.

To my knowledge, Palamism as professed in Eastern Catholic Churches does not hold real distinction. Therefore if Eastern Catholic Churches profess this form of Palamism, they would be fine to do so.

If this is the truth then it would perfectly be fine as you said.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If this is the truth then it would perfectly be fine as you said.

Well, “if” part remains. I am under impression it is the truth, but that’s about it. Let’s hope that it either is, or that it will come to be. Thanks for clarification.

 

[CathBoy1]

Tis_Bearself:

See paragraph 27 of this Vatican letter and the associated footnotes.

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

Yes… Eastern Mysticism was introduced … and should not have been

1. The expression “eastern methods” is used to refer to methods which are inspired by Hinduism and Buddhism, such as “Zen,” “Transcendental Meditation” or “Yoga.” Thus it indicates methods of meditation of the non-Christian Far East which today are not infrequently adopted by some Christians also in their meditation.

The orientation of the principles and methods contained in this present document is intended to serve as a reference point not just for this problem , but also, in a more general way, for the different forms of prayer practiced nowadays in ecclesial organizations, particularly in associations, movements and groups.

Why seek elsewhere than from the direct rich Spiritual Prayer via Faith In Jesus?

What you are pointing to here are non-christian eastern methods, and you are right to point out that those methods aren’t of much value to Christian Spirituality.

However what @Tis_Bearself was pointing to, was the value of the Eastern Christian methods of meditation, to Christian Spirituality (when applied properly), here take a look:

26. Human experience shows that the position and demeanor of the body also have their influence on the recollection and dispositions of the spirit. This is a fact to which some eastern and western Christian spiritual writers have directed their attention.

Their reflections, while presenting points in common with eastern non-Christian methods of meditation, avoid the exaggerations and partiality of the latter, which, however, are often recommended to people today who are not sufficiently prepared.

The spiritual authors have adopted those elements which make recollection in prayer easier, at the same time recognizing their relative value: they are useful if reformulated in accordance with the aim of Christian prayer.30 For example, the Christian fast signifies, above all, an exercise of penitence and sacrifice; but, already for the Fathers, it also had the aim of rendering man more open to the encounter with God and making a Christian more capable of self-dominion and at the same time more attentive to those in need.

In prayer it is the whole man who must enter into relation with God, and so his body should also take up the position most suited to recollection.31 Such a position can in a symbolic way express the prayer itself, depending on cultures and personal sensibilities. In some aspects, Christians are today becoming more conscious of how one’s bodily posture can aid prayer.

Continued…

 

[CathBoy1]

27. Eastern Christian meditation32 has valued psychophysical symbolism , often absent in western forms of prayer. It can range from a specific bodily posture to the basic life functions, such as breathing or the beating of the heart. The exercise of the “Jesus Prayer,” for example, which adapts itself to the natural rhythm of breathing can, at least for a certain time, be of real help to many people.33 On the other hand, the eastern masters themselves have also noted that not everyone is equally suited to making use of this symbolism, since not everybody is able to pass from the material sign to the spiritual reality that is being sought. Understood in an inadequate and incorrect way, the symbolism can even become an idol and thus an obstacle to the raising up of the spirit to God. To live out in one’s prayer the full awareness of one’s body as a symbol is even more difficult: it can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.”

All that being said I think it’s a bit harsh to say that Eastern Mysticism shouldn’t have been introduced whatsoever in the west, as when properly applied it can be of great spiritual benefit to the properly disposed Christian.

 

[poche]

There is evidence that there was a form of hesychasm in the Mozarabic rite.

 

[EndTimes]

What you are pointing to here are non-christian eastern methods, and you are right to point out that those methods aren’t of much value to Christian Spirituality.

To be clearer - some forms of Eastern-spiritually and other practices - which had been somewhat rather widely offered via errant theologians - are in opposition to God’s Holy Spirit - Occultic - Apostasy… Dangerous.

That’s what/why I pointed them out in a non-specified manner -

 

[CathBoy1]

To be clearer - some forms of Eastern-spiritually and other practices - which had been somewhat rather widely offered via errant theologians - are in opposition to God’s Holy Spirit - Occultic - Apostasy… Dangerous.

That’s what/why I pointed them out in a non-specified manner -

We are in agreeance here: non-Christian eastern methods, even when being used or adapted by the well intentioned Christian are of no benefit and can potentially be of harm to the Christian.

Yes… Eastern Mysticism was introduced … and should not have been

But when making the above statement, specifically using the term Eastern Mysticism, it can be perceived to include true forms of Eastern Christian Mysticism, such as hesychasm, which as has been pointed out, when properly applied can be of great spiritual benefit for the sufficiently prepared Christian.

 

[EndTimes]

But when making the above statement, specifically using the term Eastern Mysticism, it can be perceived to include true forms of Eastern Christian Mysticism, such as hesychasm, which as has been pointed out, when properly applied can be of great spiritual benefit for the sufficiently prepared Christian.

OK … If by Hesychasm - one is referring to a mystical tradition of contemplative prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church - then I would reconsider what I’m saying after looking into it

 

[CathBoy1]

OK … If by Hesychasm - one is referring to a mystical tradition of contemplative prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church - then I would reconsider what I’m saying after looking into it

Yes, that’s exactly what we’re talking about, to understand please carefully read the following, that @Tis_Bearself linked and I quoted earlier, from the congregation of the doctrine of faith:

27. Eastern Christian meditation32 has valued psychophysical symbolism , often absent in western forms of prayer. It can range from a specific bodily posture to the basic life functions, such as breathing or the beating of the heart. The exercise of the “Jesus Prayer,” for example, which adapts itself to the natural rhythm of breathing can, at least for a certain time, be of real help to many people.33 On the other hand, the eastern masters themselves have also noted that not everyone is equally suited to making use of this symbolism, since not everybody is able to pass from the material sign to the spiritual reality that is being sought. Understood in an inadequate and incorrect way, the symbolism can even become an idol and thus an obstacle to the raising up of the spirit to God. To live out in one’s prayer the full awareness of one’s body as a symbol is even more difficult: it can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.”

Peace be with you brother

 

[EndTimes]

Yes, that’s exactly what we’re talking about, to understand please carefully read the following, that @Tis_Bearself linked and I quoted earlier, from the congregation of the doctrine of faith:

CathBoy1:

27. Eastern Christian meditation32 has valued psychophysical symbolism , often absent in western forms of prayer. It can range from a specific bodily posture to the basic life functions, such as breathing or the beating of the heart. The exercise of the “Jesus Prayer,” for example, which adapts itself to the natural rhythm of breathing can, at least for a certain time, be of real help to many people.33 On the other hand, the eastern masters themselves have also noted that not everyone is equally suited to making use of this symbolism, since not everybody is able to pass from the material sign to the spiritual reality that is being sought. Understood in an inadequate and incorrect way, the symbolism can even become an idol and thus an obstacle to the raising up of the spirit to God. To live out in one’s prayer the full awareness of one’s body as a symbol is even more difficult: it can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.”

Peace be with you brother

Thank you… And, got it…

I spent 6 weeks in India with priests, brothers and nuns who connect with Thomas the Apostle. And the Namaste gesture – hands in a praying manner with a slight bow to one another - offers a non-western form of respects to each other person - in a manner which reminds of what that appears to be saying.

Peace of Jesus be with you brother.

_

 

[George720]

Amazing document - eg:

In 1868, the Jesuit Martinof (Annus Ecclesiasticus Greco-Slavicus, Bruxelles 1868) firmly speaks against Palamas, Acaci;us (De consensus II, cap. XII) [speaks of Palamas]:

<<worthless person
not only deprived of the priesthood and
forever excluded from his dignity,
but he also deserves to be punished [by fire and] with a sword….,
a fallen malefactor of dishonour>>**

My goodness…

The heart of the authoritarian ecclesiologist revealed…

Are Jesuits always men of such violence?

St Francis where are you?

Has this mentality been anathematized by the Catholic Church?

Or is it merely concealed under the heading: Authority…??

geo

 

[George720]

“Then he wrote about the light which appeared upon Mt. Tabor, **asserting that it was uncreated and [yet] was not God’s essence, but some sort of divine operation, which is a thing one cannot endure to hear: for nothing is uncreated apart from the divine essence .”

Therein lies the crux - And the question then becomes:
“How can the truth or falsehood of this proposition be established?”

We are created, and can only know God insofar as God acts in His creation…
It is not enough to merely yet insistently say so…
Because anyone can do that…

geo

 

[George720]

…as long Thomism exists and the western view of divine simplicity exists.

What is the western view of divine simplicity and how was it derived?

geo