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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Then I would suggest that you make it clear that, IN YOUR OPINION, homophobia SHOULD be considered a sin.I haven’t looked yet! Not sure I’ll find anything.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
I don’t see anything mentioned about homophobia at all.Hi. I found just this on here - the Vatican website: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2358
'Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.’
Also, earlier on in a post I wrote the dictionary meaning for terms to do with orientation if you check it out. In post 155.
All the best for now.
I can focus on the sentence " Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."…and emphasize the operative words "should be avoided ". It does not say: Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard is condemned.
Homophobia is not a sin
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Sky_River
Guest
How can you call Uganda intolerant, when King Asa exiled them from the land?
“And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.” —1st Kings 15:11,12
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
The key is the adjective “Sexual” which denotes that it is orientation towards sex (sex here being the attribute, not the activity).
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friardchips
Guest
Respectfully, quite a few of us have been discussing this for ages now and trying to reason the different aspects of the word, and whether it is sinful. I have clearly said my position on it based on sound reasoning with and from others and my own contribution and am content with what I have come to understand. I am not asking you to believe the same conclusions.
The Vatican does not comment either way as you pointed out; however, it is reasonable to suggest that if the Catechism says the sexual orientation of the person is disordered and not sinful, until the action (which could also entail ‘feeding the thought’ and why it is considered to be a trial) then to feel sorry for the person is Christian because one is thinking about their wellbeing not their sins which are behind closed doors if/when this happens - this does not mean you have to approve of it or even dislike the thought of the action but then why would you because you are not thinking about it are you: ‘They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.’
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
That’s correct.
Like I said, distinguishing between orientation and conduct is very important.
If a young person is taught that sexual orientations are normal and acceptable but mistakenly understands that orientation equals conduct…then that person will be accepting unnatural sexual conduct as normal and acceptable rather than intrinsically disordered as the Church teaches.
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sw85
Guest
It means being just and compassionate toward others. To be just means to give people what they deserve, and if they deserve harshness, then justice means you should be harsh with them. But to be compassionate means that however you treat people in a particular circumstance, with kindness or harshness, you do so in a spirit of charity, out of concern for their souls. Recall that Jesus himself was sometimes quick to chastise and to discipline people, including his closest friends – and he was the perfect man!
We certainly should not shrink from pointing out the wickedness of the gay lobby’s agenda – their support of chattel slavery and unauthorized social experimentation on children (the “right” to gay adoption) and cultural genocide (the “right” to deprive a child of his or her biological father in order to import and adopt them) to their readiness to wage legal warfare on hapless small business owners, shut down orphanages and cause harm to children out of malicious spite, scandalize people with obscene displays of vulgarity in an attempt to normalize their sexual behaviors, and to indulge in fascist eugenics in order to engineer children through genetic design and sperm-banking. Saying these things may hurt the feelings of some individual homosexuals but we are obliged in justice to say it, because there are more important things at stake than their feelings: namely, the rights of children to be raised by a mother and father (and especially their biological mother and father), and the right of all people to live in a dignified and decent society that treats people as something more than breeders at a Nazi eugenicists’ stud farm.
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edwest2
Guest
Thank you for your comments. I don’t believe in the word controversy. As a Christian, I believe someone is right and someone is wrong, for a reason. I believe most issues are extremely black and white. Any controversy that may occur is usually about an attempt to create scenarios that are highly unlikely.I am sorry to hear this. Not a pleasant experience…
If you don’t want to answer then I’ll mind my own business: did you lived in a gang area - going by your knowledge of the problems that occur(?)
Where does this happen though?
I don’t think anyone here is supporting gay rights exactly; just being nice to people by taking them as they are. It doesn’t mean you have to accept what might happen behind closed doors and as you went on to say - we don’t think about that anyway, and I think every Christian at some point has petitioned against laws which threaten the sanctity of life such as married gay couples raising children.
I agree with this statement because otherwise we end up with ‘thought-police’. But this does go both ways IMHO. On the one hand it’s plausible to presume some people are made to feel bad if they feel something negative and maybe they find it difficult to combat negative thoughts about a section of the community, or a person, but then if that hangs over the *possible suffering person * who is the target of negative feeling, and people hold it against them, then even thinking about that person in a negative way can show itself and affect that person and it sends ripples of tension through a community.
No matter why the word came about, and whether it was silly to begin with, and whether it is used to cause a conflagration against Christians, it is still a word. I thought earlier that prejudice would be a better word as it veers around such ambiguity. What do you think? I do think homophobia is a word still though that maybe accidently serves to highlight a real fear. I don’t think it can just be ruled out completely - look at the violence in Africa - as there is never an excuse for violence against vulnerable people and this can stem easily from not knowing how to ‘love’ people with kindness because of inner tension.
If a word comes about that has to make Christians try harder and in some cases re-evaluate their own faith-life then it can be a healthy thing.
As someone who experienced violence I would think that you understand how a bad thought can turn into violence because the person who abused you physically had a thought initially to do so too. Where do we draw the line at any kind of prejudice. As a Christian one has a duty to keep a mind on one’s thoughts. Difficult in some cases but that is another reason why we need God to help us - not only to see and to speak but also to think with compassion. This is a daily commitment.
I would counter-argue and suggest that homophobia is a word but stems from something bigger and less ambiguous: Christians don’t seem to understand how they are to be or to feel or to see or to speak when confronted with controversial issues. Do you think this is a true statement?
I believe we must always keep our own souls in check because this is the thing that leads to good fruit.
God bless.
I don’t believe for a second that anyone fears homosexuals. Today, there is a very real concern over issue number one for the gay community. Gay marriage. To legalize it, and as I saw one woman on TV sat after getting her marriage license: “Now, we’re equal.” Equal in what way? The obvious answer is that gay marriage is exactly equal to heterosexual marriage.
That is a distortion of what marriage actually is. That is a fact.
Next, two married men do not just go to work, come home, walk their dog and live peacefully with their neighbors. Young kids in public schools are suddenly exposed to two gay daddies and two lesbian mommies storybooks. Why?
If anyone thinks an indoctrination system is not going on, that’s a denial of the fact that public schools, TV shows and other media are not going to stop the constant stigmatizing of opponents to ‘gay rights.’ And that the media will not stop portraying gay characters in the most positive light.
The end result that is desired is clear: gay married people are 100% the same as heterosexual married people. This is damaging to the true definition of marriage, and an invention that is opposed to reality.
Man + Woman does not equal
Man + Man
Woman + Woman
Just because laws are passed does not automatically mean that the correct definition of marriage is going to change. To put it another way, I am not the least bit concerned if a dozen gay couples move into my neighborhood. I am concerned about children being taught something that they are not intellectually or emotionally prepared to understand. And so is the Church. I just want to express the truth. Not my opinion - the truth.
This is clearly a social engineering experiment that is patterned on the same methods of other social experiments over the last 40 years. Those experiments have always not produced good fruit. So, whatever happens, our primary weapon is the truth.
Peace,
Ed
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friardchips
Guest
I think there are a lot of points you have made clearly here in reply to my post so thank you for taking the time to write all your thoughts out.
Recalling your example of justice: Jesus getting annoyed (in the Temple, is one example) - God does not appreciate idols and this is also the case in the OT: God’s disgust at idol-worshipping - I think both Isaiahs warned the Chosen People of “idolaters” before and after the Babylonian Exile. I was thinking a while ago about judging and how we are called to put God first in all things but how to do this with kindness. Measuring out an act of justice takes incredible sensitivity because we are only human, whereas Jesus was man and God - we can’t read people’s hearts and minds (this is my response to your reference to the NT) and so He had the right as God to judge and act with justice because it was His Father’s House and He IS God. But when James and John were angry with some people who didn’t accept Jesus’ message they wanted Jesus to rain down fire from the Heavens (I think this is why they were called ‘Sons of Thunder’) and Jesus rebuked them. A journalist spoke recently about the correct meaning behind ‘the iron rod’ phrase - this actually means to ‘guide with compassion’ rather than to blast down angry fire. So prayer is needed to discern on all issues. Another point is that Abraham, when Sodom was going to be destroyed, tried to intercede and asked God not to destroy if there was one decent man etc…and God agreed, so it was not God who destroyed them but the people destroyed themselves, because they had not changed their behaviour and at that time Christ was not known to be the intercessor at the Father’s right hand! And Jesus then said He did not come to judge. He gave authority to Popes through Peter and so we are to follow their advice to the letter (CCC). Going back, the point is that God’s response to Abraham was “Yes”. This is the point! Why aren’t we looking to see God in those people because that is what God does: He gives people the chance to heal and/or overcome. What about the woman at the well who Jesus could have vented rage at, due to her various men; He was not harsh or aggressive - He gently pointed out with kindness; not to condemn. She was probably quite thick-skinned but most people are very over-sensitive. Jesus must be called on in prayer to see if it is right to reprimand because one bad word God has not asked us to say can send someone into despair - hence, why they say a priest has the power to guide people to Heaven or lead people to Hell! So it is best, as the CCC says, to show respect, compassion, sensitivity for all people’s situations because they are carrying ‘a cross’. It says to be ‘accepting’ of them. It doesn’t mean we have to like the sin but then who is watching? So what is left after that but the individuals! Actions not words - what could you say: “Hey, don’t be that way!” But are we perfect in every way?
The Church has called us to petition against gay adoption. I think against gay marriage (?)
The rest of the stuff you mentioned; I think this stuff is down to crazy doctors thinking they are gods doing as they do with euthanasia and abortion and the rest of the things that threaten sanctity of life. I really don’t think that all this other stuff is down to gay lobbying.
To measure out justice can be the case for gently reprimanding (or guiding)children and people if we are the parents or teachers and to stop actual violence (to defend) on a small or huge scale in the case of unjust aggressors who are imposing an immediate violent threat. Even then, in the case of the bigger threat, it is still down to the Pope to speak for us. Aggressive behaviour - physical or verbal, is a general no go. If I felt uncomfortable with two homosexuals being touchy-feely or something I would not feel ashamed to look away but still I would not judge, would cease to think of it afterwards, and take the people for who they are as people created by God.
If we try and lead decent lives then people will follow example not being told they can or can’t do things. And that example is gentle love not harshness: Matthew 11:28-30.
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friardchips
Guest
Many thanks for this.
I agree on the topic of children needing male and female parents.
I agree that the act is contrary to an ordered nature and sinful.
I think we disagree on the application of love and what love even entails. Truth is black and white, as you said, but I think people are complex and a bit grey because we are not God.
The answer?! An accepting, forgiving, listening and non-judgemental heart is one which all people are drawn to. Anything else divides, not bridges gaps. The pen is mightier than the sword but examples of love are the consequences of God’s pen because God IS love and His Word has already been spoken: Christ. I am not better than my Master - as quoted in another post: Matthew 11: 28-30.
God bless.
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johnnyc176
Guest
I think you may be ignoring half the Gospel. The Church’s mission includes the saving of souls. If you knew your brother/sister was doing something that put his/her soul in danger would you not be concerned?
“Neither do I condemn you (compassion). Go your way, and from now on do not sin again (conversion).”
Pretty straight forward. Compassion for this life, conversion for the next. We read and hear much about the compassionate Jesus, not so much about His warning against sin. So much in fact one asks is there a hell and isn’t it the Church’s mission to help people not go there? You know what this is similar to? Once saved always saved protestants. Jesus loves you and as long as you believe in Him no matter what you do you are saved! Well, Jesus spoke much about sin, satan and hell. In fact in Scripture He spoke more about the place of eternal damnation than He did Heaven. I’m guessin’ for a reason.
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friardchips
Guest
Hi. Thanks for your response.
I haven’t missed anything in the Gospel and I am Roman Catholic.
Three things…
First, is that I believe there are two facets to our faith: one is the gift of belief in Christ which God Himself nourishes (as one person put it: “the hand we receive with”) and the other facet to our faith is the giving (“the hand we give with”).
Second, my concern is not whether we are to evangelise or even convert but the manner we do so and this I believe is sharing. The gift of faith in Christ and piety towards His commandments and knowledge of His Truth is a gift of faith we take with one hand only to be shared, and we should remember it is a gift ,not to be Lorded over other people judgementally but to be lovingly shared with others.
Third, God heals. People think they can change others at their own willing. This for me is faith hugely misplaced and lacks solid understanding of Christ’s message. So much is impossible and made impossible by those who want to take it on their shoulders to change people as they see fit but I believe it is God who heals. Faith tells me this. He makes the impossible, possible. We just have to be there at the ‘time and place’ living with love and praying for people, and His Holy Spirit works through us - this faith moves mountains. We do need to oppose when the Church calls us to do this still in the ways it lays out.
So I think we disagree not on what is right or wrong or even setting a good example but rather on how one does that as a Christian, a Roman Catholic. I said in a much earlier post that there are varying degrees that one can show disapproval depending on how well you know the individual but we must remember that if we are to admonish then one’s life had better be perfect - this is what the Pharisees did and we saw Jesus’s reaction to them as “hypocrites”. And unless someone is actually doing a sinful act what are you to say? To accuse people of the things you think they are doing?
I think people just have to try and lead good lives, receive the Sacraments and pray for situations and people, be kind , sometimes oppose issues when the Church says to do this - signing a petition etc…, depending on the position one is in, and through this example others will come to the Christian person and want to know more and then one can share their faith in Christ. The more people trust the more they listen. This is not only Christian but also logical and the fruit growing from a compassionate heart. The closer people come to Christ, sometimes through us, the more they want to know. My faith tells me that faith in Christ and through the examples He has given us of how to live a Christian life is how Christ makes ‘everything new’.
These are my points. Thank you again.
God bless.
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friardchips
Guest
Did Mary Magdalene meet Jesus’ disapproval, or did her accusers? Was it condemnation that made her a follower of Christ or was it His life-saving merciful heart?
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Tip, if saying stuff is only going to make it worse, sometimes the right thing to do is to say nothing.
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johnnyc176
Guest
Jesus handed over His Church to imperfect people. Gave the keys to the Kingdom to an imperfect man. That man, our first imperfect Pope converted 3,000 and in doing so called them sinners. Imperfect St. Paul certainly did his fair share of calling out sinners.
Getting back to the thread…I guess it depends on one’s idea of what homophobia is. Just in proclaiming the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church the world labels as homophobic. Along with hater, intolerant, bigot and any other word that seeks to bury the Truth in relativism.
Of course no one likes being called names so we become cowards and fail to stand up for the Truth which is the enemy’s goal. Then the notion that we only need to live our Faith becomes prevalent thereby taking away a key weapon in this spiritual warfare.
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edwest2
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friardchips
Guest
Relativism doesn’t fit this topic.
Aggressive action is misunderstanding - the Crusaders lived a long, long time ago. We have fortunately advanced in understanding since then.
The weapon against Satan is prayer, fasting and good works. This is not new knowledge.
The word ‘homophobia’ has come to mean more than just a fabricated notion for any opposition to homosexuality on the part of gay lobbyists and has unfortunately come to include violent prejudice.
Prejudice against any person is wrong but is a better word for anyone who hates vulnerable people. Prejudice can go both ways, like hatred for the Church, but one should be careful that the feeling of needing to ‘oppose’ in the name of God doesn’t poison one’s own heart as a Christian because we are called to have a heart for those on the borders.
Anti-Christian, however, is a simple enough term for those who purposefully rally against sanctity and dignity of life and who try to undervalue and undermine Christian belief and pro-life understanding. But the Church calls us to act when she sees fit.
The good news is that misunderstanding is healed by silent and peaceful witness and prayer.
If people think they have the right ,and holy gifts, to be outspoken on the topic then go and find a Catholic priest and ask whether if it is okay to individually rally against gay people and criticise them. I don’t think you’ll get the answer you are hoping for. But if you feel called to do this then I would go and speak to a priest, seriously. As you know, they have the good advice, and this authority is from Rome!
To the OP: It seems that the word in the original meaning of homophobia is very ambiguous. If we take it in the wider sense - to include violence - then it is sinful.
God bless.
Aggressive action is misunderstanding - the Crusaders lived a long, long time ago. We have fortunately advanced in understanding since then.
The weapon against Satan is prayer, fasting and good works. This is not new knowledge.
The word ‘homophobia’ has come to mean more than just a fabricated notion for any opposition to homosexuality on the part of gay lobbyists and has unfortunately come to include violent prejudice.
Prejudice against any person is wrong but is a better word for anyone who hates vulnerable people. Prejudice can go both ways, like hatred for the Church, but one should be careful that the feeling of needing to ‘oppose’ in the name of God doesn’t poison one’s own heart as a Christian because we are called to have a heart for those on the borders.
Anti-Christian, however, is a simple enough term for those who purposefully rally against sanctity and dignity of life and who try to undervalue and undermine Christian belief and pro-life understanding. But the Church calls us to act when she sees fit.
The good news is that misunderstanding is healed by silent and peaceful witness and prayer.
If people think they have the right ,and holy gifts, to be outspoken on the topic then go and find a Catholic priest and ask whether if it is okay to individually rally against gay people and criticise them. I don’t think you’ll get the answer you are hoping for. But if you feel called to do this then I would go and speak to a priest, seriously. As you know, they have the good advice, and this authority is from Rome!
To the OP: It seems that the word in the original meaning of homophobia is very ambiguous. If we take it in the wider sense - to include violence - then it is sinful.
God bless.
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kozlosap
Guest
:thumbsup:Thanks for an awesome post! No matter the nay sayers, relationships are not black and white, in fact it is the polar opposite.
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friardchips
Guest
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friardchips
Guest
…however, I would say that we should be very, very vocal when it comes to abortion, and gay people bringing up children, against gay marriage in Churches, the use of protection being right during physical relations, and euthanasia.
We should never say that something is normal when it isn’t.
In no way am I saying that if people of the same sex were to behave intimately in public, in front of a person, then one’s reaction should be as if nothing was happening - some form of gentle show that one is uncomfortable **is needed ** - I would turn my head away - and if asked why the response then to speak one’s mind delicately. Also, if asked about the subject then I feel a duty is necessary to speak about one’s angle on the faith frankly even though sensitivity is required. The rest of the time good works and prayer are needed.
The other anti-life problem is in schools where it is taught that unnatural relations are normal. I don’t agree with that but then all the more reason for Catholic schools to try extra hard to educate children and for Churches to form family groups that educate children.
But I still say that if the CCC says we are to approach people with sensitivity and kindness then this is what we are to do.
We should never say that something is normal when it isn’t.
In no way am I saying that if people of the same sex were to behave intimately in public, in front of a person, then one’s reaction should be as if nothing was happening - some form of gentle show that one is uncomfortable **is needed ** - I would turn my head away - and if asked why the response then to speak one’s mind delicately. Also, if asked about the subject then I feel a duty is necessary to speak about one’s angle on the faith frankly even though sensitivity is required. The rest of the time good works and prayer are needed.
The other anti-life problem is in schools where it is taught that unnatural relations are normal. I don’t agree with that but then all the more reason for Catholic schools to try extra hard to educate children and for Churches to form family groups that educate children.
But I still say that if the CCC says we are to approach people with sensitivity and kindness then this is what we are to do.
- Status