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chrisb
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Hi Doc,
I just want to say you’re presence on the forum is very welcome. We need facts and you rock with a lot of facts!
Rock on!
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I just want to say you’re presence on the forum is very welcome. We need facts and you rock with a lot of facts!
Rock on!
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Benedict108
Guest
I never said we are created equal. We are all created in different states in life and we must do our best living in that state. We are all created with different burdens that we must carry. We can each choose a path; one of convenience and one of difficulty and I am sure that are a few in between. Nevertheless, each path carries a consequence, so there must always be an awareness that actions can carry consequences whether on this plain of existence or in the after life.
If you were looking for a Christian method of thought, I provided one; however, if you wish to discuss on more secular terms of course the rules are different. However, I am not a secular humanist and I do not see the world in their perspective. I see in accordance with Catholic teachings.
Now back to what you consider punishment. If you go against the will of God, could you possible consider punishment in the after life…quite possibly. However, if you are searching for the will of God and follow Catholic teachings, you can discern the correctness or incorrectness of an action and give that suffering to God if you attempt to overcome a heavy burden.
But as I said in my earlier post, we all have crosses to bear. Some crosses are heavier than others. We can always attempt to rationalize away our problems and defy God’s will for us, or we can follow it. The choice is ours.
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iamme
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that just sounds like a god who wants us to resent him to me.
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ChristIsLord
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my nature is to be drinker, quick to anger, and at times violent unless i quell that side of me. i never asked to be this way i got the gene with alcohol, and my temper i was born with as far as i’m concerned. according to the bible i’ll be getting the hot foot right along with you. we all have our natures, a rapist or child molester will say that’s their nature. if we accept homosexuality as purely genetic than why wouldn’t pedophilia be genetic too?
i don’t mean to equate homosexuality to pedophilia that isn’t my intent, but my intent is if one is genetic then the other could be too using the same logic.
frankly i just don’t care at all if someone wants to be homosexual, but to pass it off as purely genetic and not you making a decision is a bit disingenuous to me. that guilt you felt everytime you took part in homosexual activity was not purely guilt because society frowned upon homosexuality, it was ingrained guilt because deep down you knew it was wrong.
that’s my take on the matter.
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NonCatholic
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Doesn’t matter if they are “born gay” or heterosexual. Why? Because any type of fornication is a sin in God’s view.
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Neolithic
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For one, pedophilia IS a mental illness. It’s not normal at all to be sexually attracted to someone who hasn’t even sexually matured yet. Wild animals engage in homosexual activity, but I’m not aware of any that engage in sex acts with the sexually immature.
If animals don’t do it, you know something is wrong when humans do.
Sir, pedophilia is environmental. Androphilia (homosexuality - specifically, male) has a genetic component to it - a small one, but one nonetheless. There is no evidence whatsoever that pedophilia has a genetic component to it. It is, in my opinion, an entirely learned behavior.
Furthermore, there is little evidence to suggest that homosexuality is at all harmful. Pedophilia itself is not harmful - by definition, it’s simply the attraction - but the act, child molestation, most certainly is.
I am sorry, but much of that guilt comes from a society which frowns upon their behavior. Regardless of how many new laws we pass to protect them, they know deep down that when they hold hands with their partner in public, people look at them in disgust.
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Benedict108
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You are free to perceive it that way, but to submit to God’s will is an exercise in humility.
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Maso
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Well now…
Let me spell it out for you. All these links and drawn out rationals that you’ve posted here just add up to a pile of B.S… that’s Barbra Streisand… if you don’t know.
But if you want a more “scriptural” answer, then consider where the Bible says that the “wisdom” of man is just foolishness before God.
But I am hardly qualified to go there. I think that **Courage4JC ** is the guy who could. Maybe he will take it from here.
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Arandur
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There are many ways in which homosexual behavior is harmful to the individual and society–heck, perhaps contrary to popular belief, even Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle recognized this.
In the U.S. today, there are many problems. I’ve referenced many of them in the context of a discussion on marriage on a different forum: agameofthrones.com/agotforums/posts/list/795/7049.page
I hope the links are still active. That was a few months ago. Some of the ills in summary:
- Homosexuals tend to live a comparatively more promiscuous lifestyle than heterosexuals, with all the associated emotional/psychological and physical ills, including increased transmission of venereal disease;
- There is a higher incidence of infidelity in the homosexual population than the heterosexual one, creating more of the above plus less stability, particularly in terms of households children may be brought into;
- There is a higher incidence of many psychological ills and drug use among the homosexual population.
Further, as I heavily documented in the post I linked to, it is well known that heterosexual marriage is statistically the best lifestyle and form of relationship for adult humans across many variables and every studied culture. It is also the most beneficial on many levels for society. Societally-speaking, then, anything that discourages marriage, such as conditions that encourage the development of greater numbers of homosexual people, is less beneficial if not harmful to society. So acceptance of homosexual behavior as equal to heterosexual behavior in every way is harmful to society.
Considering the argument from nature, homosexuality is a disorder. Its natural occurrence does not change this; it is an unfavorable behavior in the sense that it does not increase the genetic diversity of the population but rather detracts from it, and instead has tended to spread disease and psychosocial stress and illness. Thus discouragement of homosexual behavior while reinforcing heterosexual behavior (monogamous, since promiscuity is penalized naturally by many of its own problems) is comparatively better for the species, while less homosexual behavior among the existing population would correspond to less transmission of disease at the least. Some may argue that it is a population control, but have we really observed higher incidences of homosexuality in high density populations than in low density ones, controlling for other factors? If not, then on the whole, homosexuality is unfortunately like other disorders such as addictions, destructive behaviors, physical handicaps, and so forth in the sense that it is not the normative natural state. We seek the diminishment of other natural disorders, why should we not of homosexuality, if possible? And if development is the primary determinant of homosexual orientation, then shouldn’t it be possible to influence it?
In point of fact, as a biology major whose various teachers (like many biology teachers) seem to have had quite a fascination with sex in the biological world, I have seen videos of animal behavior that captured and attempted to explain instances not only of homosexual behavior, but of pedophilia (even resulting in death) and even necrophilia. The most accepted explanation did seem to be one of expression of sexual frustration, but it also involved a learned component. I just point this out because your observation of “if animals don’t do it…” ends up not helping clarify the matter much, unfortunately. I wish you were right, but I think the evidence makes it a more complicated matter not so easily dismissed–explanations of why pedophilic acts are wrong may have an impact on the consideration of whether homosexual acts are wrong.
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Arandur
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Are you rebelling against God because He allows humans to exist who are not perfect? That is essentially the problem of evil and discussed in many times and places elsewhere. The essential Catholic belief on that is that He DID create us perfect–original sin caused the consequences we experience, among other things, in imperfections.
Please don’t, however, believe that your situation is somehow more onerous than everyone else’s, that God has some kind of cruel vendetta against you. Plenty of people, as ChristisLord pointed out, struggle with their own inherent problems, many far worse than yours–mental or physical handicaps come to mind. Some even fairly similar–the single person who can’t find a good relationship has sexual frustrations, as does the heterosexual addicted to sex or pornography or harmful sexual relationships due to genetically greater sex drive or early development.
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pathia
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You are operating under the axiom that being gay is wrong. I do not operate under that axiom. Also, I have the ‘alcoholic gene’ yet I am not an alcoholic and I drink. Moderation is the key in all things. What you are stating here is that anyone who has even the slightest chance of being alcoholic, should never drink alcohol, ever.
I would disagree with the statement those studies were done in countries that were accepting. I have friends from Europe, including those so called ‘accepting’ nations. School was still a horror for them and other children still teased and beat the hell out of the ones that were not gender conforming. Kids find ways around the rules to be cruel.
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iamme
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- pedophilia could indeed be genetic. i dont think it is, but it could be, as adults have had sexual relations with children for as long as anyone can remember. the difference is homosexual acts occur between two consenting adults, therefore the two arent comparable, and to do so, is genuinely insulting.
- i dont feel guilt when i have sex with a boyfriend, ever. its nice, and it reminds me that im not alone. do i not like to talk about my personal life out of fear that someone will call me a fag or an abomination? some gays are so effeminate they cant hide it (and some guys are straight and effeminate, making them clueless targets) but im not. i like in to a black person who could “pass” in the 20s and 30s. they werent ashamed of who they were, they were afraid of peoples ignorance.
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iamme
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in order to rebel against someone you have to acknowledge them. im not saying god doesnt exist, but hes not part of my life, and at this point i dont need him to be. also, i dont consider myself a worse person than any stretch of the means, because im gay. thats a label other people can give, and then they teach it to their kids. eventually, the stigma will go away, and people will look back and say “what a quaint notion, that homosexuals were eveil deviants”. unfortunately, i wont be alive to see it.
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estesbob
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It most definitely was with my alcoholism. Many think that that is genetic also but that excuse did not work with the policeman who pulled me over for drunk driving.
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buffalo
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Gender-bending chemicals in our rivers grow more potent
The cocktail of gender-bending chemicals entering rivers and streams is more potent and harmful than anyone realised, it has been revealed.
Scientists have found an entirely new class of chemicals that is changing male fish into females – and which could be contributing to the soaring rate of infertility and defects in men.
They have yet to find the source of the chemicals, known as anti-androgens, but believe they could come from pesticides, industrial pollution or pharmaceutical drugs.
Until now it was assumed that the most serious gender bending man-made chemicals were those that mimicked the female sex hormone oestrogen.
more…
The cocktail of gender-bending chemicals entering rivers and streams is more potent and harmful than anyone realised, it has been revealed.
Scientists have found an entirely new class of chemicals that is changing male fish into females – and which could be contributing to the soaring rate of infertility and defects in men.
They have yet to find the source of the chemicals, known as anti-androgens, but believe they could come from pesticides, industrial pollution or pharmaceutical drugs.
Until now it was assumed that the most serious gender bending man-made chemicals were those that mimicked the female sex hormone oestrogen.
more…
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iamme
Guest
yeah, but the difference is, i cant be arrested for being with another dude. me doing that doesnt endanger the lives of others. ive never understood the comparison of something that is obviously an immediate danger to those around them and homosexuality. i understand youre using it as a common ground sort of thing, but its not common ground.
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buffalo
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iamme
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i read that, and i didnt notice anything referring to homosexuality in there, in fact, they basically said they dont know how, or even if it affects people, if it does anything at all…
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buffalo
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What do you think happens when a male is constantly dosed with estrogen? Or anti-androgens?
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iamme
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those are all health risks of ANY kind of sex. youll forgive me if i take an article on homosexual sex from a catholic site with a grain of salt. furthermore, every activity listed can also be found in a heterosexual relationship. AND sex is between two consenting adults, and if youre going to have sex with someone, you need to know that if you dont protect yourself, you can get a disease, or get hurt.
nothing in that article shows that homosexuals pose any threat to anyone around them, or at least not any more so than heterosexuals do.
in regards to the psychiatric illness that is mentioned, much of that can be attributed to society, small or large, demonizing them for who they are. i know that growing up, i felt horrible about it, because people had no problem tossing the word ****** around, and basically turning people into something subhuman. luckily, ive figured out that thats their deal, it doesnt have to be mine. but of course, when youre part of a persecuted minority, which homosexuals are, if only because its acceptable to demean and hate gays, then there are going to be depression issues.
youre alcoholism is inherently more dangerous to people around than homosexuality could ever hope to be. its not possible to gay drive, or to get someone so gay that they get raped, or get black out gay, or get gay poisoning.
edit: its sincerely awesome to see that the derogatory word for a gay man is censored here!
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