Is human free will grossly overrated?

[Robert_Sock]

Given that our desires, urges, feelings and even our thoughts are controlled by the supernatural, I don’t believe we have much of a free will. However, I do believe that there are certain situations in life where we are free to choose, especially between good and evil. I believe that it’s the lack of free will that makes God so forgiving. Would anyone freely choose evil if they were truly free and had a proper perspective of things? What I’m saying here is consistent with the visions and experiences of Julian of Norwich who was shown where most, if not everyone, would be saved. Like me, she feels that the punishment of sin will deep remorse.

 

[davidv]

Given that our desires, urges, feelings and even our thoughts are controlled by the supernatural,

I believe you are starting out with a false premise. What evidence do you have for this claim? I don’t believe that it is true.

I don’t believe we have much of a free will. However, I do believe that there are certain situations in life where we are free to choose, especially between good and evil. I believe that it’s the lack of free will that makes God so forgiving. Would anyone freely choose evil if they were truly free and had a proper perspective of things?

Yes there are those who would do so. Adam and Eve are prime examples.

What I’m saying here is consistent with the visions and experiences of Julian of Norwich who was shown where most, if not everyone, would be saved. Like me, she feels that the punishment of sin will deep remorse.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I believe you are starting out with a false premise. What evidence do you have for this claim? I don’t believe that it is true.

There was once a movement in psychology called “introspection.” This research tool trained people to carefully analyze there inner experiences and report the findings. This is what I do, and this is why I’m making the claim.

Yes there are those who would do so. Adam and Eve are prime examples.

Would Adam and Eve have sinned if they properly perceived good and evil? I do not think so, and I get the feeling that they were remorseful after they sinned.

 

[davidv]

There was once a movement in psychology called “introspection.” This research tool trained people to carefully analyze there inner experiences and report the findings. This is what I do, and this is why I’m making the claim.

What does this have to do with supernatural control of our desires, urges, feelings and even our thoughts?

Would Adam and Eve have sinned if they properly perceived good and evil?

How could they not have known? They walked with God in the garden.

I do not think so, and I get the feeling that they were remorseful after they sinned.

How does remorse demonstrate that they did not sin willingly, with full knowledge?

 

[Robert_Sock]

What does this have to do with supernatural control of our desires, urges, feelings and even our thoughts?

My personal introspection suggests it. My inner voice (visions) suggests that it’s true. What evidence do you have to refute it?

How could they not have known? They walked with God in the garden.

Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of good and evil until after they are from that tree.

How does remorse demonstrate that they did not sin willingly, with full knowledge?

Yes, they did sin willingly, but they did not have a proper perspective on the outcome of their sin. Eve was tricked into thinking that she would become like God, a lie.

 

[davidv]

My personal introspection suggests it. My inner voice (visions) suggests that it’s true. What evidence do you have to refute it?

My own observations. I see no supernatural influence in the presence of a plate of cookies that results in overeating. Nor in the lustful thoughts generated by the sight of a scantily clad person.

Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of good and evil until after they are from that tree.

Are you sure that you are properly interpreting the Scripture? I think you are question begging. You have read your conclusion into the words.

Yes, they did sin willingly, but they did not have a proper perspective on the outcome of their sin. Eve was tricked into thinking that she would become like God, a lie.

Seems to me Scripture contradicts this interpretation. God told them they would die if they ate of the tree.

 

[blase6]

It seems to me that people choose according to whatever appears to be the best option. This is one of the things that becomes apparent from introspection. Since God for some strange incomprehensible reason allows evil choices to appear better than good choices, evil exists.

 

[Robert_Sock]

My own observations. I see no supernatural influence in the presence of a plate of cookies that results in overeating. Nor in the lustful thoughts generated by the sight of a scantily clad person.

Where do the lustful thoughts originate? True, a person may be capable of focusing on them to more or less of a degree, but the thoughts are usually automatic – classical conditioning.

Are you sure that you are properly interpreting the Scripture? I think you are question begging. You have read your conclusion into the words.

The sin was in Adam and Eve becoming aware of good and evil, was it not?

Seems to me Scripture contradicts this interpretation. God told them they would die if they ate of the tree.

Yes, but Adam and Eve were momentarily thrown into confusion. Again, I believe if they had a proper perspective of things, they would never had sinned. Keep in mind that in some Jewish and Christian circles, it’s believed that God wanted them to sin, knowing that the end aftereffect would bring Creation to a higher climax.

 

[davidv]

Where do the lustful thoughts originate? True, a person may be capable of focusing on them to more or less of a degree, but the thoughts are usually automatic – classical conditioning.

The sin was in Adam and Eve becoming aware of good and evil, was it not?

No, it was pride, that led to disobedience. They already had an intellectual knowledge of good and evil, because God had instructed them. What they gained (I say a loss) was an experiental knowledge of evil. They didn’t learn anything new about good.

Yes, but Adam and Eve were momentarily thrown into confusion. Again, I believe if they had a proper perspective of things, they would never had sinned. Keep in mind that in some Jewish and Christian circles, it’s believed that God wanted them to sin, knowing that the end aftereffect would bring Creation to a higher climax.

Those circles are blatantly wrong, for God can neither deceive nor be deceived.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It seems to me that people choose according to whatever appears to be the best option. This is one of the things that becomes apparent from introspection. Since God for some strange incomprehensible reason allows evil choices to appear better than good choices, evil exists.

This reminds me of the never ending debate in psychology on whether true altruism really exists when you boil all the expected intrinsic rewards down.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, it was pride, that led to disobedience. They already had an intellectual knowledge of good and evil, because God had instructed them. What they gained (I say a loss) was an experiental knowledge of evil. They didn’t learn anything new about good.

I admit that my view is opinionated, based on my own introspection, but sounds like you too are being opinionated. Or else show me a reference to pride as having been the motive based on the scriptures.

Those circles are blatantly wrong, for God can neither deceive nor be deceived.

How is this deception?

 

[davidv]

I admit that my view is opinionated, based on my own introspection, but sounds like you too are being opinionated. Or else show me a reference to pride as having been the motive based on the scriptures.

It is not just my opinion. I would suggest that the sections of the CCC that refer to Genesis 1 - 3 and original sin be reread.

How is this deception?

It is false to claim that God wanted them to sin. Because to do so implies that God is deceiving us into thinking something is good when it is not.

 

[dshix]

Robert Sock,

You have the burden of proof to show that the claims you made in the first post are true. You cannot demand any evidence from others to “refute” your claims until you substantiate them with something greater than personal opinion.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It is not just my opinion. I would suggest that the sections of the CCC that refer to Genesis 1 - 3 and original sin be reread.

I have not read about those passages in the CCC, so I cannot comment.

It is false to claim that God wanted them to sin. Because to do so implies that God is deceiving us into thinking something is good when it is not.

Maybe I should have said that God allowed them to sin, but the notion that Creation will ultimately be benefited by the downfall is reasonably popular.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert Sock,

You have the burden of proof to show that the claims you made in the first post are true. You cannot demand any evidence from others to “refute” your claims until you substantiate them with something greater than personal opinion.

No proof other than inner revelation. I’ve seen so many threads that assume free will here on CAF (without solid proof) that I wanted to share my perspective on the matter.

 

[blase6]

This reminds me of the never ending debate in psychology on whether true altruism really exists when you boil all the expected intrinsic rewards down.

Well, defining love as “desiring the good of others” is not a sufficient explanation of love. It is a manifestation of love, but not the entirety of it.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

According to the Chuch we are created with free will. Are there mitigating conditions which can lesson or destroy freedom and therefore responsibility? Yes, but that is really between individuals and their confessors and perhaps medical professionals. We cannot make sweeping generalizations here.

Linus2nd

 

[Robert_Sock]

Can we do any good whatsoever without the grace of God? I don’t think so, and I think that this points more at our very limited free will.

 

[davidv]

Can we do any good whatsoever without the grace of God? I don’t think so, and I think that this points more at our very limited free will.

Yet, you are free to accept or reject the grace needed to do the good. And, there is no limit on this particular freedom.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yet, you are free to accept or reject the grace needed to do the good. And, there is no limit on this particular freedom.

Is it really us who decides whether or not to accept this grace, or is it God who has the power whether or not to bestow it?

Again I’ll state that free will is greatly hindered when looking at the real picture of things.