Is human nature inherently flawed?

[itsjustdave1988]

Neithan,

I have an answer to your other questions in my noggin’ but it’ll have to wait, as I’m heading out to watch my daughter’s play.

 

[Neithan]

Verbum Caro:

You are quite right, however, in noting the remarkable truth that we have, as part of our nature an END which, by our nature, we are INCAPABLE OF ATTAINING.

And would that not set us apart from animals and angels, who are naturally capable of achieving all their natural ends?

Even Aquinas in that quote mentions we are not capable of our purely *natural *end without divine assistance! It seems that–although this is not dogmatic by any means–humans would only arrive at a purely natural end if they died in Original Sin only (Limbo), which is only possible if they either never reach the age of reason (babies/young children) or are never given reason during their life time (mentally handicapped).

itsjustdave1988:

Our engine is capable, but was not created with unlimited capability so as to attain our supernatural end without supernatural help.

But are we even capable of attaining our purely *natural *end? If we are incapable of avoiding mortal sin without supernatural grace, then don’t we ‘naturally’ forfeit even our natural happiness? Aquinas suggests that even for the right ordering of our natural faculties we need God’s help–unless perhaps, those who die in Original Sin only, go to a place of ‘perfect natural happiness’ i.e. Limbo. The contradiction there is that would be reserved only to undeveloped or handicapped human beings (a fully developed, healthy human being is incapable of attaining his natural end).

As for other creatures, all are dependent upon God for their very existence, even the continuation of their existence. Plants, animals, angels, humans, every existing thing can only exist if God continuously wills their existence. Thus, there does not exist any creation that does not depend upon God for both their natural good and, if possible, their supernatural good. In the natural order, the dependency is still sometimes called grace, but it is not a supernatural grace. In the supernatural order, both angels and humans must depend upon supernatural grace.

Certainly, we all need God to continue to exist, as He is the Creator and Sustainer of all Life–but it seems that for animals and angels, this is accomplished in the medium of their own created nature. God uses nature to help creatures attain their natural ends. Humans, however, seem to require a constant supernatural intervention from their Creator in order to attain their *natural *end (our supernatural end aside). Isn’t that unique?

All creatures need direct divine aid to attain their natural good, as well as supernatural good. We don’t have a pure natural engine (nor does any other creation) that doesn’t require continual “maintenance” or Divine Concurrence by God.

Ok. It’s clear that God works directly through nature to help all creatures attain their natural ends, and works supernaturally to help rational creatures attain their supernatural ends. Even so, I still see humans as the only creatures requiring supernatural help to attain even their natural end.

Allow me to re-phrase:
*“I still find it odd that we are the only living beings whose pure nature is not capable of attaining its **natural *good without supernatural aid.”

Perhaps it was because all angles sealed their own fate where as you and I suffer from the sin of Adam and Eve.

*Exactly, *Dave. We ‘suffer’ from Original Sin. But what is Original Sin? It is simply our own nature without supernatural and preternatural aid! We are the *only *living creatures who are not even *naturally *capable of attaining our natural good! We alone, are intrinsically crippled, and therefore are the only creatures who justify the need for a Divine Redeemer!
(I realise this is somewhat speculative insofar as we have limited information as to the natural capabilities of angels, but it seems to fit the puzzle as to why we have a Redeemer and they do not).

Once Adam fell, he lost all claim to his supernatural good, however, he even lost the ability to attain his *natural *good, and therefore God gave him and Eve an offer of redemption. Since supernatural assistance is necessary for humanity’s *natural *good, redemption automatically opens the door again, for our supernatural good. Does that make any sense (i’m not entirely sure myself)?

Could it be precisely because our human nature is inherently flawed, that God saw fit to ‘redeem’ us, since we are incapable of saving ourselves without *supernatural *divine assistance?

I have an answer to your other questions in my noggin’ but it’ll have to wait, as I’m heading out to watch my daughter’s play.

Great! I won’t be able to read it for a while though, since I’m flying to Rome today, for Holy Week

God bless, and Happy Easter!

 

[Werkzeugmann]

Hmmm–where is the rest?

Looks like this ended a few years back? Was interesting reading too.

But isn’t it really all about “the will” His; or ours? (You shall be like God, this our willful desire/temptation, in some form based on the disobedient act we attained some form of divinity beyond creative intentention-god likeness or at least “stuff” (knowing good from evil) that comes with it, but not the virture that prevails therein, or then worse yet for mankind at the time, the in-ability to eat from the tree of eternal life (which would have eternally bad ramifications-eh?), then shoved out and a guard posted to keep out, therefore we violated, “betrayed the lover” the owner of the creation to get what we desired, even though He still loved us again later through Christ; thus in Adam all sinned to Christ’s redemption analogy Rom 5:12 original sin, sorry for the brief tour: just a little catching up for all your other posts versus my one).
SO In Grace we are under His will and find harmony with its joyous rewards “natural and supernatural”, outside Grace meaning under our naturally ocurring reason we fail to attain suffient harmony which this privation results in concupisence and discord and even human depression and have need for an expert GRACEFUL mechanic to re-tune the engine. Basically it’s still a test of wills–His: ours, bad reasoning, imperfect logic, the privation is the difference between knowledge which we don’t fully have (but are allowed to have, and we keep searching for) and passionate desires which we do have to motivate us beyond good wisdom or divine logical abilities thus we fulfill the desires unnaturally (not deemed as GOOD, a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are death)- to have selfish ends the fulfillment of our desire according to our will and not His will. This catch-22 situation causes me to always cry with tears of frustration at the situations we constently must struggle with in-side. There for we must follow Romans 12, by renewing your mind, and Corrinthians to tear down the strongholds which set themselves against the knowledge of God–this is Christ and His grace and His truth.

 

[Werkzeugmann]

After writing the last post, I noted a disturbance in my theory, while at a basketball game sitting next to the High School Bible teacher (who KNOWS quite a bit about sin) I recognized the effect of knowing right from wrong but the lack of control to counteract the emotional outbursts leading to “wispers about the ref’s poor calls” this may not be a sin of mortal nature but it does come close to gossip (charachter slander) when wispered in anothers ear and not directly confronted to the ref.

So the knowledge/wisdom of Gods rules when translated to our personal situations does not always fix or tune the engine? I would say we must “know thy-self” as the ancient philosophers said (socrates or aristotle, can’t remember). And that self-(ish) knowledge must be subjected to Christ. So the knowledge must be applied to our desires ( or in this case my teacher friends emotional wisperings) meaning EVERY thought into captivity and render it unto Christ. 2Cor10:3-6. The result is the victory we have via the completion of obedience to the spirit resulting in the harmonious actions of the flesh! This condition you all have felt, this harmonious result–It’s like being in “the Zone” smooth and graceful; very peaceful within our own souls too! And presnted to others involved at the event is (in some graceful way) Christs gospel and not our opinions–it is; at that instant, a Christian witness to the world!!! The key is the ability to “tell Jesus” not to rely on our own cognitive rationalizations (rational biblical interpretations vs spiritual biblical interpretations) and recognize the virituous prompting of His spirit to inject His GRACE-FUL(L)ness to the situation/event. Which the fleshly result may be to" be quite and calm" know that He is God and let your yes;be yes, and your no be no. So the act of praying without ceasing needs to be effected to render all thoughts to Christ, but most important is realizing Gods demands in the situations and translating it to human reality. This has been the struggle for time and eternity since Adam sinned in the garden.