Is ignorance necessary for free will?

[Vera_Ljuba]

Looks like that many apologists think so. When asked why does God not give an irrefutable sign of his existence, and no explicit and detailed list of “do”-s and “don’t”-s to gain admittance to heaven, they argue that this knowledge would take away our free will. We would not have the freedom to believe, we would be “forced” to know.

Now, even if we had 100%, Cartesian certainty about God, we would still retain the freedom to accept God or reject him. We could choose to worship or not. Actually, to have true freedom we must know the result of our choices.

So, in their opinion one needs ignorance to possess “free will”. Do you agree with this?

 

[e_c]

Creation is an irrefutable sign of His existence. This is what St. Paul tells us, what Vatican I tells us, and what reason tells us.

The rest of your post is very confusing. For instance:

Actually, to have true freedom we must know the result of our choices.

So, in their opinion one needs ignorance to possess “free will”.

These contradict each other.

There is, however, the question of merit, which is diminished the more help one needs in relation to the same action due to a less cooperative will. This is relevant for the assent of faith, which is more than just believing that God exists.

It doesn’t seem you want to ask about “free will” as much as you want to ask about the relationship of knowledge TO free will. The will is free inasmuch as it is rational… Rationality precedes actual knowledge. However, we can’t exercise free will without actually knowing about the world or God or ourselves or whatever. Ignorance therefore diminishes freedom, inasmuch as freedom relates to our pursuit of what is truly good.

In Heaven, nobody can leave because of freedom… They are entirely knowledgeable of Who God is and are entirely empowered to remain with Him. Therefore, knowing He is the greatest Good, one will necessarily perpetually choose to remain with Him.

 

[STT]

… So, in their opinion one needs ignorance to possess “free will”. Do you agree with this?

I think the assurance that God exists can affect our behaviors but not free will. It just changes how do you give preference to your options when you are about to decide freely.

 

[MaryHelp777]

Looks like that many apologists think so. When asked why does God not give an irrefutable sign of his existence, and no explicit and detailed list of “do”-s and “don’t”-s to gain admittance to heaven, they argue that this knowledge would take away our free will. We would not have the freedom to believe, we would be “forced” to know.

Now, even if we had 100%, Cartesian certainty about God, we would still retain the freedom to accept God or reject him. We could choose to worship or not. Actually, to have true freedom we must know the result of our choices.

So, in their opinion one needs ignorance to possess “free will”. Do you agree with this?

The angels had free will for one occasion only. The time of the fall, they had a choice to join satan in hell, or serve God in Heaven.

Some saints write that they did not have access to the Beatific Vision of God during their temptation of the Fall. God reserved the Beatific Vision to the angels who remained steadfast during the fall. The Two Thirds who remained in God’s Army.

Yet as beings of pure Spirit they had COMPLETE knowledge of the eternal consequences of their choice. They were not ignorant. They freely choose disobedience and hate, knowing full they consequence of their actions.

 

[STT]

The angels had free will for one occasion only. The time of the fall, they had a choice to join Satan in hell, or serve God in Heaven.

That does not make any sense to me. How fallen angels could decide Hell over Heaven knowing the distinction between?

STT

 

[Hatikvah]

Now, even if we had 100%, Cartesian certainty about God, we would still retain the freedom to accept God or reject him. We could choose to worship or not. Actually, to have true freedom we must know the result of our choices.

So, in their opinion one needs ignorance to possess “free will”. Do you agree with this?

Not really, someone can always reject any idea of “proof” of God as their own delusions, or something that can be deduced with reason.

 

[MaryHelp777]

Not really, someone can always reject any idea of “proof” of God as their own delusions, or something that can be deduced with reason.

True,

Judas and the Pharisees saw Jesus miracles first hand, and still “refused to believe.”

For.something to be a mortal sin, it must be, “Deliberate, freely committed,.and.committed with FULL knowledge.”

As Jesus told the Apostles, about.the Judgement of those who had knowledge / lack of knowledge:

“He.who did not know his Master’s will and did not do his Master’s will, will receive a light beating.
But he who did know his Master’s will and did not do it will receive a severe beating.”

However God reminds us it is very difficult to not know the Truth,
“I will write my laws on your hearts.”

 

[seagal]

That does not make any sense to me. How fallen angels could decide Hell over Heaven knowing the distinction between?

STT

No one, not even the angels, makes a choice between heaven and hell. The choice is always between obeying God and not obeying him. Heaven and hell are the consequences of that choice. It may seem like a distinction without a difference but it’s not. No speeder makes a choice between getting a ticket or not. No smoker chooses to get cancer or not. The ticket and the cancer are the consequences of making the wrong choice.

 

[STT]

No one, not even the angels, makes a choice between heaven and hell. The choice is always between obeying God and not obeying him. Heaven and hell are the consequences of that choice. It may look like a distinction without a difference but it’s not. No speeder makes a choice between getting a ticket or not. No smoker chooses to get cancer or not. The ticket and the cancer are the consequences of making the wrong choice.

Fallen Angels have to obey Satan if they don’t obey God. Moreover, they have to live in Hell instead of Heaven. So what is really the benefit?

STT

 

[mikekle]

Some saints write that they did not have access to the Beatific Vision of God during their temptation of the Fall. God reserved the Beatific Vision to the angels who remained steadfast during the fall. The Two Thirds who remained in God’s Army.

I have heard this before but not sure I believe it, in order for this to be true, some form of time passing would have to of occurred, a time period when some or all of the angels did not yet see the beatific vision, and then a time period afterwards, when they did…see what Im saying? There is NO time periods in their realm, everything remains the same, in other words, no change is possible.

 

[mikekle]

No one, not even the angels, makes a choice between heaven and hell. The choice is always between obeying God and not obeying him. Heaven and hell are the consequences of that choice. It may seem like a distinction without a difference but it’s not. No speeder makes a choice between getting a ticket or not. No smoker chooses to get cancer or not. The ticket and the cancer are the consequences of making the wrong choice.

So what about the person who is a good person thru out their life, but does not desire to be religious or have a relationship with God, they are still ‘punished’ for making the ‘wrong’ choice?..Why is it the wrong choice if they have true free will? Why should they be punished for simply exercising the free will?

 

[seagal]

So what about the person who is a good person thru out their life, but does not desire to be religious or have a relationship with God, they are still ‘punished’ for making the ‘wrong’ choice?..Why is it the wrong choice if they have true free will? Why should they be punished for simply exercising the free will?

First of all, the church recognizes that God can and probably will save even those who, through no fault of their own, do not believe in him. Either they’ve never heard of God, or else they lack the necessary gift of faith to truly believe in him.
(CCC 847)

Secondly, if someone does come to know God but chooses to reject him anyway, God will not force himself on that person. This is not a punishment, it is a natural consequence of having made a free choice.

Free will doesn’t mean you choose what you like and either way is good, like choosing a meal at a restaurant. Free will is you choose to eat or you choose not to eat. With one choice you die, with the other you live.

 

[seagal]

Fallen Angels have to obey Satan if they don’t obey God. Moreover, they have to live in Hell instead of Heaven. So what is really the benefit?

STT

You’d have to ask a demon that question.

 

[e_c]

The angels had free will for one occasion only. The time of the fall, they had a choice to join satan in hell, or serve God in Heaven.

Some saints write that they did not have access to the Beatific Vision of God during their temptation of the Fall. God reserved the Beatific Vision to the angels who remained steadfast during the fall. The Two Thirds who remained in God’s Army.

Yet as beings of pure Spirit they had COMPLETE knowledge of the eternal consequences of their choice. They were not ignorant. They freely choose disobedience and hate, knowing full they consequence of their actions.

What is bolded is not correct. Free-will is part of the nature of a rational creature, precisely because it is rational.

The number of fallen angels is purely a matter of speculation.

 

[STT]

You’d have to ask a demon that question.

I don’t think that I need to ask demons. The story has logical issues.

 

[seagal]

I don’t think that I need to ask demons. The story has logical issues.

That may be, but you have to remember nobody knows for sure. We know from scripture that angels exist. Jesus says in Luke 10:18 that he saw Satan fall from heaven. Revelation 12:9 also says that the dragon (Satan) was hurled from heaven along with his angels. As for the circumstances, that hasn’t been specifically revealed to us. Theologians can make some educated guesses, possibly inspired. Personally speaking, I’ll take their inspiration on the matter over my own.

 

[STT]

That may be, but you have to remember nobody knows for sure. We know from scripture that angels exist. Jesus says in Luke 10:18 that he saw Satan fall from heaven. Revelation 12:9 also says that the dragon (Satan) was hurled from heaven along with his angels. As for the circumstances, that hasn’t been specifically revealed to us. Theologians can make some educated guesses, possibly inspired. Personally speaking, I’ll take their inspiration on the matter over my own.

I don’t understand how those verses can help. Hell is a place of suffering whereas Heaven is a place of pleasure. Is that correct? Then how Angels chose Hell over heaven? Moreover, the fallen Angels must obey Satan if not God so their problem could not be obeying.

 

[goout]

Looks like that many apologists think so. When asked why does God not give an irrefutable sign of his existence, and no explicit and detailed list of “do”-s and “don’t”-s to gain admittance to heaven, they argue that this knowledge would take away our free will. We would not have the freedom to believe, we would be “forced” to know.

Now, even if we had 100%, Cartesian certainty about God, we would still retain the freedom to accept God or reject him. We could choose to worship or not. Actually, to have true freedom we must know the result of our choices.

So, in their opinion one needs ignorance to possess “free will”. Do you agree with this?

“Irrefutable. Explicit. Detailed. Certainty.”
Knowledge is not only the sum of these things. And so free will is not conditioned by the type of ignorance you are talking about. And so the word “necessary” does not fit. Free will simply is something we have.
It is part of being loved. When a person is loved, the lover must allow for free response.

Your question takes an issue of human nature and the relationship of man to God, and reduces it to science. “Rationalism”.
Human nature and being is not fully explicable by science. Science works towards it’s goals, in it’s sphere of competence, but it can never fully answer questions of being, meaning, identity, purpose.

We are free. And because we are human, we have degrees of ignorance. And we have free will right alongside ignorance.
Ignorance is part of being a creature, as opposed to being God himself (which delusion is fairly popular these days)

 

[seagal]

I don’t understand how those verses can help. Hell is a place of suffering whereas Heaven is a place of pleasure. Is that correct? Then how Angels chose Hell over heaven? Moreover, the fallen Angels must obey Satan if not God so their problem could not be obeying.

The verses only go to show that we know Satan and his demons exist and that somehow they fell out of grace with God.

Heaven is a place of joy of being with God. If you don’t want to be with God then it wouldn’t be a pleasant place to be.

Obedience in general was obviously not the problem, obedience to God was.

 

[Aloysium]

I don’t understand how those verses can help. Hell is a place of suffering whereas Heaven is a place of pleasure. Is that correct? Then how Angels chose Hell over heaven? Moreover, the fallen Angels must obey Satan if not God so their problem could not be obeying.

Heaven is transcendent to the illusions and transient experiences that distract and lead us astray from the destiny that God wills for us - joyous communion through the giving of ourselves to what is other. This is very different from pleasure. What Satan and his followers rebelled against might be best expressed by the Beatitudes.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:3-10

Beatitude is a state of goodness, complete fulfillment. There is no want.

Sin ends up in the opposite state of misery.

The world offers:

• pleasures that end, typically in pain,
• things that break or, if they don’t, they end up in someone else’s possession,
• the illusion of power, when it belongs to death, borrowed until it comes for us,
• honour and fame, dissolving in a nature where only bones and remnants remain of what was once vital and alive.

At the Ground of our being is Love. As a result Reality is topsy turvy to what we experience in our fallen state. The greatest among us is the servant of all, the one who gives his life that others may live.

In contrast, look how powerful Satan is in this world. He is behind the elevation and fall of each and every tyrant who calls on his power to control and rule. It’s a long sordid story.

If you want to get to the bottom of this, it’s going to take time and effort. Hope this helps.