Is infallible knowledge of the Canon possible

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Whose position of the canon is the most consistent? I would argue that my position is and the Catholic position is illogical. I believe we as fallible humans cannot have infallible knowledge of anything unless we are inspired of God. We have faith and trust in God’s promises, but faith is not based on infallible knowledge.

Catholics often claim Protestants need an infallible church so we can have infallible knowledge of the canon. But there is a big problem. How can fallible Catholics relying on their own fallible knowledge to sift through all the competing claims by churches. Sift through the Scriptures and sift through all the competing historical voices have infallible knowledge of anything? They would need to be individual infallible in order to guarantee any thing they believe is infallible. So Catholics, how do you move from fallibility to infallible knowledge of things such as the canon?
 
Plainly evident guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The early church was there…the reformers were not.
 
Whose position of the canon is the most consistent? I would argue that my position is and the Catholic position is illogical. I believe we as fallible humans cannot have infallible knowledge of anything unless we are inspired of God. We have faith and trust in God’s promises, but faith is not based on infallible knowledge.

Catholics often claim Protestants need an infallible church so we can have infallible knowledge of the canon. But there is a big problem. How can fallible Catholics relying on their own fallible knowledge to sift through all the competing claims by churches. Sift through the Scriptures and sift through all the competing historical voices have infallible knowledge of anything? They would need to be individual infallible in order to guarantee any thing they believe is infallible. So Catholics, how do you move from fallibility to infallible knowledge of things such as the canon?
You need to understand where the Bible came from and how it was a part of the Church before the canon was settled. The easiest book to read on the subject, and online, as well, is: Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church. It was written by a man who had been brought up Church of Scotland and after much study and prayer became a Catholic and then a Catholic priest. I highly recommend it for its historical accuracy and helpfulness.
 
Catholics often claim Protestants need an infallible church so we can have infallible knowledge of the canon. But there is a big problem. How can fallible Catholics relying on their own fallible knowledge to sift through all the competing claims by churches. Sift through the Scriptures and sift through all the competing historical voices have infallible knowledge of anything? They would need to be individual infallible in order to guarantee any thing they believe is infallible. So Catholics, how do you move from fallibility to infallible knowledge of things such as the canon?
Let me turn the question around. What is the point of even having inerrant scriptures? Since everything has to go through fallible human minds, why have infallible (inerrant) anything?

When you can explain why it is better to have inerrant scriptures rather than errant ones, then we can move on to your question.

BTW, as an aside, your question is another in a long line of examples that I have observed where Protestants ask questions intended to undermine the Catholic Church, which in reality undermine the entire Christian faith if the Protestant assumptions in the questions are actually upheld.
 
Do you have infallible knowledge that the canon you accept is correct? I accept the Canon based on faith because I know Christ promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide His Church and that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. I trust that he fulfilled this promise by infallibly guiding the Church in discerning what was inspired and what was not.

I have faith that the Church has this authority just as I have faith that the Bible is the Word of God. Do you have infallible knowledge that the Bible is the Word of God and no the word of some intelligent men?

God Bless,
Michael
 
How would you know which scripture is inspired, and which is not.
It wasn’t a cut and dried deal when the Church established the canon, there were about 8 books that didn’t make the canon, and another 8 which are in the canon which were disputed

How can we be sure that the books which are included in the canon are inspired, since they were fallible men, maybe they made a mistake.

Maybe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is not inspired, (All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.)

If we are not sure of what is inspired, then how can we teach from the Bible?

What would the Pastor say on Sunday… Thus says the Lord…I think.
 
Whose position of the canon is the most consistent? I would argue that my position is and the Catholic position is illogical. I believe we as fallible humans cannot have infallible knowledge of anything unless we are inspired of God. We have faith and trust in God’s promises, but faith is not based on infallible knowledge.

Catholics often claim Protestants need an infallible church so we can have infallible knowledge of the canon. But there is a big problem. How can fallible Catholics relying on their own fallible knowledge to sift through all the competing claims by churches. Sift through the Scriptures and sift through all the competing historical voices have infallible knowledge of anything? They would need to be individual infallible in order to guarantee any thing they believe is infallible. So Catholics, how do you move from fallibility to infallible knowledge of things such as the canon?
The Church teaching being free from error does not also imply that all individuals will receive that teaching free from error. You’re trying to mix the two and claim illogic. Bzzz.

This retreat into demanding only the highest levels of proof is common among those who see the falsehood of Sola Scriptura, but still want to squirm out of the arms of the Catholic Church.

I wonder if you think the apostles and other disciples were acting reasonably when they witnessed evidence that Jesus was God and died horrible deaths affirming that belief. If so, you have the beginning of understanding the Catholic position on the canon of Sacred Scripture:

Proving Inspiration
 
Do you have infallible knowledge that the canon you accept is correct?
No. I think I said that in my initial post.
I accept the Canon based on faith because I know Christ promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide His Church and that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. I trust that he fulfilled this promise by infallibly guiding the Church in discerning what was inspired and what was not.
Accepting something by faith is not infallible knowledge. The essence of faith is trusting and hoping not infallible knowledge. So are you denying you have infallible knowledge?
I have faith that the Church has this authority just as I have faith that the Bible is the Word of God. Do you have infallible knowledge that the Bible is the Word of God and no the word of some intelligent men?
No, and I have said all along that I do not possess infallible knowledge about anything. Like you said above I faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself up for me. It seems like you have just joined me in my boat. I thought you were at such an advantage over me? This was easy, let me see if the other Catholics agree with you and me 😉
 
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VociMike:
Let me turn the question around. What is the point of even having inerrant scriptures? Since everything has to go through fallible human minds, why have infallible (inerrant) anything?
Because God is inerrant and he doesn’t speak in lies. He reveals himself in truth to his people and also protects His church so that she never completely fails even in the midst of error. This is what faith is about. One does not need faith who has infallible certainty. The Old Covenant church did not have this infallibility and they were still given inerrant Scripture.
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VociMike:
When you can explain why it is better to have inerrant scriptures rather than errant ones, then we can move on to your question.
BTW, as an aside, your question is another in a long line of examples that I have observed where Protestants ask questions intended to undermine the Catholic Church, which in reality undermine the entire Christian faith if the Protestant assumptions in the questions are actually upheld.
Notice our friend VociMike never attempted to answer the question. But I thought the Canon was the Catholics best argument against Protestants?
 
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runandsew:
How would you know which scripture is inspired, and which is not.
It wasn’t a cut and dried deal when the Church established the canon, there were about 8 books that didn’t make the canon, and another 8 which are in the canon which were disputed
I agree with my friend Micheal the Catholic. I trust by faith that just a God protected the canon for the Old Covenant people without the need for an infallible institution He will do the same thing for the New Covenant church. But notice our friend never answers the questions. He continues.
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runandsew:
How can we be sure that the books which are included in the canon are inspired, since they were fallible men, maybe they made a mistake.
Because my trust is not in the men, but the God who works through fallible men. But notice our friend still hasn’t attempted to answer my question, he just asks the same ole questions over and over.
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runandsew:
Maybe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is not inspired, (All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.)

If we are not sure of what is inspired, then how can we teach from the Bible?

What would the Pastor say on Sunday… Thus says the Lord…I think.
See what I mean? No answer to my question. You get them off of their talking points and they are lost. They just keep repeating them even when they don’t make any sense.
 
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DeFide:
The Church teaching being free from error does not also imply that all individuals will receive that teaching free from error. You’re trying to mix the two and claim illogic. Bzzz.
But why do Catholics keep claiming they have infallible knowledge? It seems like you are saying the church is infallible, but the people can be error? If you can be in error how do you know you are right in reference to the church being infallible?
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DeFide:
This retreat into demanding only the highest levels of proof is common among those who see the falsehood of Sola Scriptura, but still want to squirm out of the arms of the Catholic Church.
Here we go again. Attack sola Scriptura and we are talking about the canon. However, when I’m talking about sola Scriptura with them they attack the canon. This is the reason why I started this thread on the canon, because they kept bringing it up. Now they want to talk about sola Scriptura.
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DeFide:
I wonder if you think the apostles and other disciples were acting reasonably when they witnessed evidence that Jesus was God and died horrible deaths affirming that belief. If so, you have the beginning of understanding the Catholic position on the canon of Sacred Scripture:
Proving Inspiration
This is another tactic. Whenever you ask them a question that they don’t have pre-rehearsed answer for they either cut-n-paste pages of material or send you to a webpage. In this case the webpage does not even deal with the real issue.
 
I agree with my friend Micheal the Catholic. I trust by faith that just a God protected the canon for the Old Covenant people without the need for an infallible institution He will do the same thing for the New Covenant church. But notice our friend never answers the questions. He continues.

Because my trust is not in the men, but the God who works through fallible men. But notice our friend still hasn’t attempted to answer my question, he just asks the same ole questions over and over.

See what I mean? No answer to my question. You get them off of their talking points and they are lost. They just keep repeating them even when they don’t make any sense.
These kind of responses shows that your understanding of infallibility is somewhat erroneous. Please provide your definition of the term “infallible” that way at least we know that we are talking about the same thing.

Just for starters, if the Pope was not only infallible regarding faith and morals but also trigonometry and he was given a trigonometry test what is the minimum score he could get as head of the Church?

I’ll give you the answer afterwards…

Cheers

Alex
T
 
Whose position of the canon is the most consistent? I would argue that my position is and the Catholic position is illogical. I believe we as fallible humans cannot have infallible knowledge of anything unless we are inspired of God. We have faith and trust in God’s promises, but faith is not based on infallible knowledge.

Catholics often claim Protestants need an infallible church so we can have infallible knowledge of the canon. But there is a big problem. How can fallible Catholics relying on their own fallible knowledge to sift through all the competing claims by churches. Sift through the Scriptures and sift through all the competing historical voices have infallible knowledge of anything? They would need to be individual infallible in order to guarantee any thing they believe is infallible. So Catholics, how do you move from fallibility to infallible knowledge of things such as the canon?
We can know this because Jesus established a Church, and one of the characters he gave is was to be able to infallible teach doctrine in faith and morals.
Jesus left us the advocate, the holy Spirit. He promised that it would lead the Church to all truth.
What issue do you have with that, don’t you believe Jesus?
Did he lie, was he mistaken in what he was saying?
We see this gift of the holy Spirit working in the Church in the books of Acts during the council of Jerusalem, and we see it working through every council of the Church to this very day.
I realize that this is hard to accept, it takes faith.
And that is what Jesus calls us to.
We answer your question, but you don’t accept our answers.
Remember that Jesus told his Apostles “who ever listens to you listens to me.”
I happen to choose to listen to his Church he established, you choose not to do so.
 
What issue do you have with that, don’t you believe Jesus?
Did he lie, was he mistaken in what he was saying?
Shame. Shame.😦
Christians can differ without resorting to this.
 
I am not infallible in my knowledge of trigonometry, but I know for sure that Sin theta = o/h in a right-angled triangle. How do I know this? Through the witness of others. I could give a very good proof for it, but does this make me infallible? Of course not.

Sola is trying to tell us that because we are not infallible (and this is true), therefore we could be wrong when we believe in an infallible Church. Yes we could be wrong, but I suspect that many of the Catholics here would think that possibility to be as likely as the possibility that Sin theta =/= o/h. It would be a denial of a promise of Jesus, as someone else has pointed out.

Sola - can we arrive at a knowledge of anything without being infallible in that topic? It seems to me that you would have to say “no” in answer to this question, for your argument to hold any water.
 
These kind of responses shows that your understanding of infallibility is somewhat erroneous. Please provide your definition of the term “infallible” that way at least we know that we are talking about the same thing.
Here we go again. More questions but no one answers the questions.
Just for starters, if the Pope was not only infallible regarding faith and morals but also trigonometry and he was given a trigonometry test what is the minimum score he could get as head of the Church?
Depends if he was taking the test ex cathedra it would be a hundred, but if it was just a personal thing he could fail.
I’ll give you the answer afterwards…
Why don’t you answer my real question? How do you go from fallible to infallibility about the canon?
 
Because God is inerrant and he doesn’t speak in lies.
Ah, but according to your “fallible human understanding” theory, every single human who reads or preaches scripture ends up inserting error. So whether God speaks in lies or not isn’t the question. The question is whether or not it matters, since according to you we can never know the truth.
Notice our friend VociMike never attempted to answer the question.
Perhaps you could be less snide and go back and notice that I was approaching an answer to your question by first trying to understand how you think any aboslute truth can be transmitted in your “fallible human understanding” world. First we have a discussion, then we (hopefully) arrive at answers.
 
We can know this because Jesus established a Church, and one of the characters he gave is was to be able to infallible teach doctrine in faith and morals.
But do you know this infallibly? If so how did you come to this infallible knowledge through fallible means?
Jesus left us the advocate, the holy Spirit. He promised that it would lead the Church to all truth.
Actually He promised He would lead the Apostles into all truth, not the church. Now if you can make this mistake on what basis do you believe you can infallibly determine other things?
What issue do you have with that, don’t you believe Jesus?
Did he lie, was he mistaken in what he was saying?
Jesus I believe, it is your interpretation of Jesus that I have the problem with.
We see this gift of the holy Spirit working in the Church in the books of Acts during the council of Jerusalem, and we see it working through every council of the Church to this very day.
The Acts council had the inspired Apostles. There were no inspired men in the other councils. As a matter of fact your church affirms that Hippo and Carthage were not infallible.
I realize that this is hard to accept, it takes faith.
And that is what Jesus calls us to.
We answer your question, but you don’t accept our answers.
Forgive me for not accepting illogical answers.
Remember that Jesus told his Apostles “who ever listens to you listens to me.”
I happen to choose to listen to his Church he established, you choose not to do so.
Yes, he told that to the Apostles which is why I consider their words infallible. BTW, notice there was not real answers to the main question. He gave no rational argument for how he came to have infallible knowledge in reference to the canon.
 
But why do Catholics keep claiming they have infallible knowledge? It seems like you are saying the church is infallible, but the people can be error? If you can be in error how do you know you are right in reference to the church being infallible?
SS, I can tell you’re an honest inquirer, and not an anti-Catholic bigot like another poster recently banned here. God bless you.

Your question is a fair one. It’s true that the canon of the Bible is, for Catholics in place by the authority of the Church. We believe that by the charism of infallibility promised by Christ, the Church had the authority to determine that these (72) books in our canon are inspired. Because this is a matter of faith, the Church indeed had to claim infallibility here.

Before continuing, let us make it clear that the individual Catholic does not claim infallibility for himself. That lies with the Church’s teaching authority.

Ok, now we Catholics cannot use Scripture to prove the authority of the Church, then use the authority of the Church to prove the canon. That would be circular reasoning, and is a fallacy. Perhaps it will help for us to break down how we reason it.
  1. We use Scripture. BUT, we do not assume that Scripture is inspired. We don’t even need to know whether what’s said is true. For now, we only need to determine whether what we have are accurate copies of the original texts.
  • We know this because of centuries of critical studies. We can be sure of the accuracy of other ancient literature, like Caesar, or Virgil, or Plato, and our Biblical manuscripts date back even closer to the originals. Textual criticism has determined that our texts are rather accurate. Now, Protestants accept this premise, so we have no problem here.
  1. Then we treat Scripture, specifically, the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, as mere history (again, not yet inspired). In other words, now that we know the texts are accurate, we must now see whether they are historically correct. Since we’re treating the Gospels as mere history, we can compare them alongside other historical and secular works. Criticism tells us that the Gospels, especially that of Luke and Matthew were specifically written for historical purposes, and is confirmed by other non-biblical writers of the ancient world.
  • But the most important witness is that the ancient Christian martyrs shed their blood rather than give up their witness to Christ. Their witness included all that Jesus did and said in the Gospels (remember, just historical for now). Including all his outlandish claims to be God and strange deeds that attest to this claim. Given that truth, there are two options: he was a madman, or he was exactly who he was: God
But the witness of the martyrs was of the Christ who rose from the dead, and was worshipped as God. The Gospels attest to the Resurrection, and Paul identifies it as the central point of our faith. The martyrs died for this belief, and no one dies for a hoax such as this (remember, that the martyrdom dates back to apostolic times, and these people claimed to WITNESS, not merely believe, the Resurrection). Why would they die for a known madman? It’s by this we know that Jesus was who he claimed to be: he was God, because he rose from the dead, and that’s a historical fact.

(continued)
 
I think the issue is confusion over what we mean by “the Church”.

I myself as a Catholic don’t have infallible knowledge of the Canon. The Church has it for me. The Pope and the bishops as a group have it as part of their magisterium, their teaching ability. The Pope by himself has it for certain purposes – and they are very specialized instances.

Infallibility isn’t omniscience. It isn’t God crawling into your brain and making you know things, either. (That would be the mystical gift known as “infused knowledge”, actually.) It expresses itself through the Church’s remembrance of what Jesus taught and what the apostles taught from him (the “deposit of faith”) and through careful logical extrapolation of things we already know (“development of doctrine”). The bishops carry the apostles’ gifts, because they are their successors. As a whole, they teach as the apostles taught.

Infallibility usually expresses itself through the bishops and the Pope saying, again and again, “This is still a sin. That is still a good thing. The Church always said so, and it still does.”

Infallibility isn’t magic. It is a grace that the Church receives and sees work over time, largely through what looks like entirely normal human processes. It is something we trust in as part of God’s covenant of faithfulness with His people; and to this day, the Holy Spirit has kept the promises of the Son.
 
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