Is infallible knowledge of the Canon possible

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The Ave Maria
Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by pope Pius IX 1854
Assumption of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by pope Pius XII 1950
Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church, proclaimed by pope Paul VI 1965

Other Marian Doctrines include sinlessness of Mary (affirmed to be infallible at Trent) and mediatrix, affirmed by various 20th century popes. Both of these last two are rejected by the Orthodox church. I hope that clears it.
Interesting. I see you are a Protestant so I’m sure you must be aware that Luther, Zwingili and Calvin (founders of Protestantism) all believed and documented their belief in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption so why are you saying its only a Catholic thing?

By the way what do you mean when you say The Ave Maria. That’s the Annunciation which is in the Bible. What’s your problem with this?
 
This all changed when they recieved the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. The disciples went from bumbling students, to powerful forceful preachers of the word, speaking with the power of the Holy Spirit. They were able to teach with the authority of Jesus.
Sitting around for weeks debating carefully defined terminology seems rather like the Pharisees. Only an opinion, we have no way of knowing what he would have thought of it. He was a lot more about actions than words.
I think he would have thrown them out by their respective collars…🙂
 
No, but there is a “principle of time”, as Tertullian called it, which suggests that those doctrines of the early church were purer, than those of later fathers. Error, when it comes, came after purity of doctrine, not before. So, 1st century, very good historical support, later centuries, progressively weaker.
The original question is still unanswered. Tertullian may speak of purity (based on time) but not of completeness. There are no compelling arguments that the revelation contained in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition was complete in the early Church. Yes the sources were finalized … at least for a few hundred more years … but not the revelation contained. Yes there were disagreements on the IC but any doctrine must be discussed and vetted. So what … it took that long for the doctrine to become dogmatic … that is not evidence that the case was weak but that dogmatic decisions like this are serious and it takes as long as takes.

Revelation means revealing what was once hidden. This is the essence of why infallibility does exist but even then can only be applied under strict conditions.
 
Interesting. I see you are a Protestant so I’m sure you must be aware that Luther, Zwingili and Calvin (founders of Protestantism) all believed and documented their belief in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption so why are you saying its only a Catholic thing?
These three came out of Roman Catholicism. There was much momentum to these beliefs at the time. Upon reflection, after cutting ties with Rome, they or the movements they spawned (Lutheranism, Anabaptists, and Calvinism/Reformed/Presbyterians) all arrived at the same conclusion: these beliefs did not form part of the New Testament church and were much later additions.
 
These three came out of Roman Catholicism. There was much momentum to these beliefs at the time. Upon reflection, after cutting ties with Rome, they or the movements they spawned (Lutheranism, Anabaptists, and Calvinism/Reformed/Presbyterians) all arrived at the same conclusion: these beliefs did not form part of the New Testament church and were much later additions.
Since Lutherans and Anglicans still believe in the Real Presence of Christ - body, blood, soul and divinity - in the Eucharist, it seems this reflection is selective, at best.

Perhaps, some folks simply protested what the original “protesters” were teaching?
 
Since Lutherans and Anglicans still believe in the Real Presence of Christ - body, blood, soul and divinity - in the Eucharist, it seems this reflection is selective, at best.

Perhaps, some folks simply protested what the original “protesters” were teaching?
No it was not selective. They rejected those things that were not supportable based on the evidence, such as the assumption and the immaculate conception. Other things, such as the Real Presence were maintained. If you are familiar with Lutheranism and Anglicanism (and for that matter, Calvinism), you will know that they (Luther and Calvin) reflected rather profoundly on the matter of the communion or eucharist and all rejected transubstantiation (as do Orthodox Christians).
 
Wether he taught Pelagianism is not the real point.

Zosimus was going against Innocents (Infallible?) decision, to declare Pelagianism a heresy. Apparently Zosimus had no concept of his predecessor’s infallible statements with regards to doctrine.

Zosimus claimed to have “maturely examined” the issue of the confession of Pelagius and Coelestus. He proclaimed them orthodox and Catholic, and gave instructions to the North Africans via the “chair of Peter” .…“So great is our authority that no decision of ours can be subjected to review…Such is the authority of Peter and the venerable decrees of the church that all questions concerning human and divine laws”

Next, the North Africans** rejected** his instructions. Assembling over 200 bishops in defiance they replied to Zosimus that they had decided that the sentence pronounced against Pelagius and Coelestius should remain in force. :eek:

The North Africans appeal to the civil authorities and an imperial decree was issued from Ravenna ordering Pelagius and Coelestius to be banished from Rome. Apeal to the civil authorities??:eek: Apparently they had no concept of Romes infallible authority.

**Zosimus had to do a complete about-face and only reversed course by force and not by conviction after having already declared from the chair of Peter his decision could not be questioned. **

The major point is obvious beyond question that Augustine did not take the view that Zosimus was an infallible leader of the Christian Church.
If Zosimus did not directly uphold Pelgianism or taught it, than using him as an example against papal infallibility is pointless. Papal infallibility deals solely with matters of doctrine (faith and morals). It does not cover errors in judgement. The Pelagians in question deceptively presented themselves as being orthodox. Zosimus never upheld Pelagianism. Moreover, did you read the link I provided? Can you please give some references?

God Bless,
Michael
 
JesusforMadrid, do you have infallible knowledge of the canon? I’ve been away a couple of days and noticed that the discussion has veered away from the original topic.

God Bless,
Michael
 
If Zosimus did not directly uphold Pelgianism or taught it, than using him as an example against papal infallibility is pointless. Papal infallibility deals solely with matters of doctrine (faith and morals). It does not cover errors in judgement. The Pelagians in question deceptively presented themselves as being orthodox. Zosimus never upheld Pelagianism. Moreover, did you read the link I provided? Can you please give some references?

God Bless,
Michael
Apparently you did not read my post as that was not the point i was trying to make.
 
In response to this, Chapman shows once again:
(1) The Bishop of Rome as successor to St. Peter has the final say on issues of Catholic faith and doctrine – this is clearly recognized by St. Augustine, the African Bishops, and the Pelagian heretics themselves (before, during and after the reign of Pope Zosimus 417-418);
Not sure how the Africans refusing to accept Pope Zosimus papal letter declaring Pelagian orthodox fits in here.
(3) St. Augustine, the great opponent of Pelagianism, himself says the Pelagian heretics “were unable to deceive the Apostolic See to the end” (although they tried) and, along with the African Bishops, highly praises Popes St. Innocent, St. Zosimus, and St. Boniface recognizing their authority not only to define orthodox Catholic doctrine but to “cut off” (excommunicate) heretics from holy Mother Church.
The following from Dom John Chapman Studies on the Early Papacy (Kennikat Press, 1971), chapter 6 “The Condemnation of Pelagianism”, the second part (pages 157-183)
bringyou.to/apologetics/num17.htm
Here is what Augstine really thought

Augustine held the Roman church and its bishop in high regard, but he had a non-papal view of church government. Roman Catholic historian Robert Eno comments:

"Elsewhere I have argued in detail Augustine’s views of authority in the Church and that, in my opinion, the council [not the Pope] was the primary instrument for settling controversies…I believe that Augustine had great respect for the Roman church whose antiquity and apostolic origins made it outshine by far other churches in the West. But as with Cyprian, the African collegial and conciliar tradition was to be preferred most of the time." (The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], p. 79)

Protestant historian Philip Schaff wrote:

“Augustine, it is true, unquestionably understood by the church the visible Catholic church, descended from the apostles, especially from Peter, through the succession of bishops; and according to the usage of his time he called the Roman church by eminence the sedes apostolica. **But on the other hand, like Cyprian and Jerome, he lays stress upon the essential unity of the episcopate, and insists that the keys of the kingdom of heaven were committed not to a single man, but to the whole church, which Peter was only set to represent. With this view agrees the independent position of the North African church in the time of Augustine toward Rome, as we have already observed it in the case of the appeal of Apiarius, and as it appears in the Pelagian controversy, of which Augustine was the leader. This father, therefore, can at all events be cited only as a witness to the limited authority of the Roman chair. **And it should also, in justice, be observed, that in his numerous writings he very rarely speaks of that authority at all, and then for the most part incidentally; showing that he attached far less importance to this matter than the Roman divines.” (The Master Christian Library [Albany, Oregon: AGES Software, 1998], History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 246)

As Augustine said:

“Wherefore, if Peter, on doing this, is corrected by his later colleague Paul, and is yet preserved by the bond of peace and unity till he is promoted to martyrdom, how much more readily and constantly should we prefer, either to the authority of a single bishop, or to the Council of a single province, the rule that has been established by the statutes of the universal Church?..[quoting Cyprian] For no one of us sets himself up as a bishop of bishops, or, by tyrannical terror, forces his colleagues to a necessity of obeying, inasmuch as every bishop, in the free use of his liberty and power, has the right of forming his own judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he can himself judge another. But we must all await the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone has the power both of setting us in the government of His Church, and of judging of our acts therein.’ Now let the proud and swelling necks of the heretics raise themselves, if they dare, against the holy humility of this address [of Cyprian].” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 2:2-4)

"Well, let us suppose that those bishops who decided the case at Rome were not good judges; there still remained a plenary Council of the universal Church, in which these judges themselves might be put on their defense; so that, if they were convicted of mistake, their decisions might be reversed." (Letter 43:19)

Even Catholic historians agree that Augustine did not see Rome’s infallible authority.
 
Apparently you did not read my post as that was not the point i was trying to make.
If your point is not that Zosimus upheld heresy or taught heresy or was a Pelagian, then there is no point in using Zosimus. The pope is only infallible when he is speaking ex cathedra on faith and/or morals, as in formally defining doctrine. Zosimus never uphelf nor defined pelagianism as an article of faith. At most, he was misled by the Pelagians in question into thinking they had accepted Orthodoxy.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Not sure how the Africans refusing to accept Pope Zosimus papal letter declaring Pelagian orthodox fits in here.

Here is what Augstine really thought

Augustine held the Roman church and its bishop in high regard, but he had a non-papal view of church government. Roman Catholic historian Robert Eno comments:

“Elsewhere I have argued in detail Augustine’s views of authority in the Church and that, in my opinion, the council [not the Pope] was the primary instrument for settling controversies…I believe that Augustine had great respect for the Roman church whose antiquity and apostolic origins made it outshine by far other churches in the West. But as with Cyprian, the African collegial and conciliar tradition was to be preferred most of the time.” (The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], p. 79)

Protestant historian Philip Schaff wrote:

“Augustine, it is true, unquestionably understood by the church the visible Catholic church, descended from the apostles, especially from Peter, through the succession of bishops; and according to the usage of his time he called the Roman church by eminence the sedes apostolica. **But on the other hand, like Cyprian and Jerome, he lays stress upon the essential unity of the episcopate, and insists that the keys of the kingdom of heaven were committed not to a single man, but to the whole church, which Peter was only set to represent. With this view agrees the independent position of the North African church in the time of Augustine toward Rome, as we have already observed it in the case of the appeal of Apiarius, and as it appears in the Pelagian controversy, of which Augustine was the leader. This father, therefore, can at all events be cited only as a witness to the limited authority of the Roman chair. **And it should also, in justice, be observed, that in his numerous writings he very rarely speaks of that authority at all, and then for the most part incidentally; showing that he attached far less importance to this matter than the Roman divines.” (The Master Christian Library [Albany, Oregon: AGES Software, 1998], History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 246)

As Augustine said:

“Wherefore, if Peter, on doing this, is corrected by his later colleague Paul, and is yet preserved by the bond of peace and unity till he is promoted to martyrdom, how much more readily and constantly should we prefer, either to the authority of a single bishop, or to the Council of a single province, the rule that has been established by the statutes of the universal Church?..[quoting Cyprian] For no one of us sets himself up as a bishop of bishops, or, by tyrannical terror, forces his colleagues to a necessity of obeying, inasmuch as every bishop, in the free use of his liberty and power, has the right of forming his own judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he can himself judge another. But we must all await the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone has the power both of setting us in the government of His Church, and of judging of our acts therein.’ Now let the proud and swelling necks of the heretics raise themselves, if they dare, against the holy humility of this address [of Cyprian].” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 2:2-4)

**“Well, let us suppose that those bishops who decided the case at Rome were not good judges; there still remained a plenary Council of the universal Church, in which these judges themselves might be put on their defense; so that, if they were convicted of mistake, their decisions might be reversed.” **(Letter 43:19)

Even Catholic historians agree that Augustine did not see Rome’s infallible authority.
The fact that there was an alleged “preference” for resolving disputes using local councils instead of appealing to Rome does not prove that the African Christians did not believe Rome was the final court of appeals on matters of faith and morals. Also, here are some links addressing your challenge:

cin.org/users/jgallegos/web_aug.htm

a2z.org/acts/webster/webster2.htm

God Bless,
Michael
 
JesusforMadrid, do you have infallible knowledge of the canon? I’ve been away a couple of days and noticed that the discussion has veered away from the original topic.

God Bless,
Michael
No less than you do.

Sorry, I know that it seems this topic has veered, but it has done so because Sola Scriptura in #165 posed the challenge regarding the Immaculate Conception. It is related. And since this is his thread, what the heck.
 
Even Catholic historians agree that Augustine did not see Rome’s infallible authority.
In the end, when all is said and done, St. Augustine no more possessed the charism of infallibility than any modern day (non-Pope) Saints recently canonized. Mickey has thrown further suspicion on the accuracy of your sources, but even if you were right, it’s irrelevant. It doesn’t matter how many other bishops he rallied to his cause, this doesn’t disprove Papal infallibility. The Pope, Zosimus, obviously believed in Papal infallibility. Even if, for the sake of argument he was, in a strictly hypothetical scenario, going to mis-cite it (it’s not possible to infallibly declare that so-and-so is orthodox; only doctrines and ethics themselves, identified clearly by the substance and not the supposed holder, can be infallibly pronounced), he clearly had some sense that it existed, given the confidence with which you claim he spoke; it clearly wasn’t just a later invention of which no early Pope or Council had ever dreamed. If anyone challenged that infallibility, it only proves that no individual besides the Pope and the Universal Magesterium (which must include and be in line with the Pope), canonized saint or otherwise, possesses the charism of infallibility, and they could thus left to their own musings come to mistaken conclusions, such as the denial of Papal infallibility, even if they also came to many right ones, such as the truth behind Pelagius’ facade.
 
No it was not selective. They rejected those things that were not supportable based on the evidence, such as the assumption and the immaculate conception. Other things, such as the Real Presence were maintained. If you are familiar with Lutheranism and Anglicanism (and for that matter, Calvinism), you will know that they (Luther and Calvin) reflected rather profoundly on the matter of the communion or eucharist and all rejected transubstantiation (as do Orthodox Christians).
I understand those distinctions, but you have to agree that it’s not pure symbolism for them.

What about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary? Was this rejected also?
 
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