Is intelligent design a plausible theory?

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Its evident from this quote that Darwin was able to preserve philosophically the concept of God with out having it interfere with his study of natural processes.
Actually, Darwin correctly pointed out that if God guided the development of nature then that would make natural selection superfluous.

[darw(name removed by moderator)roject.ac.uk/darwinletters/calendar/entry-6167.html](http://www.darw(name removed by moderator)roject.ac.uk/darwinletters/calendar/entry-6167.html)
 
Please contradict what I think you said and explain why you don’t believe in God.
I have most definitely not conveyed a disbelief in God. I suggest you stop mischaracterizing my words and instead answer my question.

Can you identify these natural systems and explain why they demonstrate ID?
 
Actually, Darwin correctly pointed out that if God guided the development of nature then that would make natural selection superfluous.

[darw(name removed by moderator)roject.ac.uk/darwinletters/calendar/entry-6167.html](http://www.darw(name removed by moderator)roject.ac.uk/darwinletters/calendar/entry-6167.html)
There are different ways of guiding something and causing something.
I believe that God created a natural order. I am not aware that it is a Christian belief that God is moving everything around in a direct sense of time and space, although i do believe that God is causing everything in an ultimate and sustaining sense; in regards to God being Existence.

Thanks for the link:)
 
I have most definitely not conveyed a disbelief in God. I suggest you stop mischaracterizing my words and instead answer my question.

Can you identify these natural systems and explain why they demonstrate ID?
You asked about “artifacts” not natural systems. Now you changed your question. I suggest that you stop mischaracterizing my words and answer my questions.
 
You asked about “artifacts” not natural systems. Now you changed your question.
Right, and then I asked about the natural systems that you claim they are modeled after. So once again, please provide examples of these natural systems that demonstrate ID.
I suggest that you stop mischaracterizing my words and answer my questions.
I didn’t notice you had any.
 
There are different ways of guiding something and causing something.
I believe that God created a natural order. I am not aware that it is a Christian belief that God is moving everything around in a direct sense of time and space, although i do believe that God is causing everything in an ultimate and sustaining sense; in regards to God being Existence.

Thanks for the link:)
That essentially refutes Darwinian theory which proposes that unintelligent processes working on purposeless mutations is the only cause for all of the development of nature.
 
That essentially refutes Darwinian theory which proposes that unintelligent processes working on purposeless mutations is the only cause for all of the development of nature.
I’m not sure how this follows:(,but I’m listening. Can you please explain this in more detail?🙂
Also, just on a side note, you do realize that there is a difference between “methodological naturalism” and “naturalistic philosophy” don’t you? One does not necessarily give cause to the other. But you probably know that.😊
Peace.
 
MindOverMatter

Why do you find evolution sooooo frightening.

Evolution is not frightening. Where did you get the idea that I oppose evolution?

Evolution is a perfectly acceptable idea and fairly well documented. However, evolution without intelligent design behind it makes no sense. Even Darwin took that view, if you are following my quotes from him.:banghead:
 
working on purposeless mutations.
I’m not aware that the Theory of Evolution is a metaphysical arguement against the existence of God. The concept of “ultimate purpose” is not a scientific concept but a metaphysical proposition, and ought to be removed from science; not because it is false, but because science is the study of natural processes, and has nothing to say in regards to ultimate purposes or its negation. Those Scientists who mix up their philosophical agendas with their work and call it science, are not practicing their trade honestly.
 
Right, and then I asked about the natural systems that you claim they are modeled after. So once again, please provide examples of these natural systems that demonstrate ID.
Ok, I answered your first question, now you’re asking another one. It might have been clearly and more courteous to thank me for replying and then proceed to make another request for information.

There are several natural systems and processes that are analogous to the “artifacts” which are the product of intelligent agents – from them, the inference that there was an intelligent agent acting in nature is the most reasonable answer.

DNA code = language of the cell
The irreducible complexity of bacterial flagellum, eye, blood clotting
Complexity of earliest known multi-cellular organisms
The complexity of cell structures
The ontological leap (as referenced by Pope John Paul II)
The variety and purpose found in plant, insect and animal populations
The mathematical precision of the the universe
How the universe itself is bound by sophisticated laws and can be understood by mathematics and reason

You might want to refer to the peer-reviewed paper by biologist Douglas Axe where he shows that the specified complexity of protien folds is evidence of Intelligent Design:
Douglas D. Axe, “Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds,” Journal of Molecular Biology, 1-21 (2004); Douglas D. Axe, “Extreme Functional Sensitivity to Conservative Amino Acid Changes on Enzyme Exteriors,” Journal of Molecular Biology, Vol. 301:585-595 (2000).

From a commentary on that peer-reviewed paper:
Doug Axe’s research likewise studies genes that it turns out show great evidence of design. Axe studied the sensitivities of protein function to mutations. In these “mutational sensitivity” tests, Dr. Axe mutated certain amino acids in various proteins, or studied the differences between similar proteins, to see how mutations or changes affected their ability to function properly.10 He found that protein function was highly sensitive to mutation, and that proteins are not very tolerant to changes in their amino acid sequences. In other words, when you mutate, tweak, or change these proteins slightly, they stopped working. In one of his papers, he thus concludes that “functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences,” and that functional protein folds "may be as low as 1 in 10^77."11 The extreme unlikelihood of finding functional proteins has important implications for intelligent design.
Since Darwinian evolution only preserves biological structures which confer a functional advantage, this indicates it would be very difficult for such a blind mechanism to produce functional protein folds. This research also shows that there are high levels of specified complexity in enzymes, a hallmark indicator of intelligent design: Only forward thinking intelligent agents could find the extremely unlikely amino acid sequences that yield functional proteins. Axe himself has confirmed that this study adds to the evidence for intelligent design, writing: “In the 2004 paper I reported experimental data used to put a number on the rarity of sequences expected to form working enzymes. The reported figure is less than one in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion. Again, yes, this finding does seem to call into question the adequacy of chance, and that certainly adds to the case for intelligent design.”
 
Michaelo

I also think you are not a Catholic, so you should take that Jesus monogram off your sleeve. You have been found out. :eek:
 
Evolution is a perfectly acceptable idea and fairly well documented. However, evolution without intelligent design behind it makes no sense. Even Darwin took that view, if you are following my quotes from him.:banghead:
Whoa!!! You’re going to hurt yourself.

In the Aquinian sense, i must agree with you, if not just for the sake of salvaging your brain from a serious head injury. But if we’re talking about Paley design…

Anyway; all i can say is that i see no problem with “all life” arising from random events and natural selection, so long as the events in question were in Gods full providence.🙂

Peace.
 
Michaelo

I also think you are not a Catholic, so you should take that Jesus monogram off your sleeve. You have been found out. :eek:
Your baseless personal attacks regarding my faith reveal more about yourself than they ever could about me. You have absolutely no right to make these claims, and I hope you soon recognize the error in your ways.
 
Your baseless personal attacks regarding my faith reveal more about yourself than they ever could about me. You have absolutely no right to make these claims, and I hope you soon recognize the error in your ways.
Please forgive him.😦
 
MindOverMatter

Anyway; all i can say is that i see no problem with “all life” arising from random events and natural selection, so long as the events in question were in Gods full providence.

How do you reconcile “random events” with “God’s full providence”?

Are you saying the universe and life could all have been planned, but God used random events to fulfill his plan?

Is God playing a shell game with us?
 
No. The theory of evolution tells us about mechanisms, such as founder effect, neutral drift, natural selection etc. Those mechanisms give rise to material bodies. Evolution says nothing about souls or other theological objects.
Do you believe souls exist? If so,you believe evolution does not explain their existence. If not, you must believe:
  1. A person is just a material body or
  2. A person is not explained by evolution.
Evolution from inanimate objects is a hopelessly inadequate explanation of rational, autonomous beings.
So you assert, but I have yet to see sufficient evidence that your assertion is correct.
You cannot see the evidence because the evidence is the lack of evidence! There is no evidence for the evolution of rational persons from irrational particles! Do you normally believe an explanation for which there is no evidence?
This whole thread is discussing the adequacy of ID as a theory and so far the ID side has not been able to come up with much more that “It sure looks designed to me”. That is completely inadequate from a scientific point of view.
I have already pointed out that the lack of evidence strengthens the case for ID. “I don’t know” is not a working explanation. It is an admission of ignorance, whereas ID is a working explanation which accounts for the evolution of rational beings.
All that I am asking for is a similar means of falsifiability from the ID side. If you want to be a science then you have to play by the rules of science: “If it could be proved that … it would annihilate ID theory, for such could not have been produced through design.” All you have to do is to fill in the gap.
“If it could be proved that intelligence has been produced by numerous, successive, slight modifications of living organisms it would annihilate ID theory because ID theory would become superfluous and confirm your belief that it is false.”

You have argued that it is impossible to falsify Design because even chance can be the product of design. Yet at the same time you maintain that design is ultimately the product of chance. Doesn’t this strike you as a rather curious argument that could lead to an infinite regress?
What exactly do these experiments demonstrate? The emergence of intelligence?
They demonstrate evolution happening now.
You have evaded my question. What exactly do these experiments demonstrate? The emergence of intelligence?😉
I can show evolution in the laboratory; all I am asking you to do it to provide similar evidence for ID.
How can we iIf you do not give us precise details of what you can show in the laboratory?:confused:
 
MindOverMatter

Anyway; all i can say is that i see no problem with “all life” arising from random events and natural selection, so long as the events in question were in Gods full providence.

How do you reconcile “random events” with “God’s full providence”?

Are you saying the universe and life could all have been planned, but God used random events to fulfill his plan?

Is God playing a shell game with us?
I see no problem with God working through secondary causes. And i see that you have conveniently left the word random all by its loathsome:(. However the idea that God created the world through purely random events is not my belief. I can certainly imagine God setting up a system of chance along with various other ingredients such as elemental qualities, deterministic environments, and physical laws; and i can imagine God setting them up in such a way that it was always going to be inevitable that particular events would occur given the right situations, while still allowing for genuine chance or randomness.

Neither do i think it necessary for God to disclose how he did it. Now, God wouldn’t waste his time with such a world unless there was something to gain from manifesting a natural order with a self organizing system of events founded upon certain unknown or unknowable mathematical principles. We both know that.

I’m not saying that God didn’t create the first complex organism directly, I’m just saying that i don’t believe it necessary for him to do it.
 
Do you believe souls exist?
No, I am a Buddhist and the Buddha explicitly denied the existence of any immortal souls.
If so,you believe evolution does not explain their existence. If not, you must believe:
  1. A person is just a material body or
  2. A person is not explained by evolution.
The material components of a person are explained by evolution. The non-material components are not.
You cannot see the evidence because the evidence is the lack of evidence! There is no evidence for the evolution of rational persons from irrational particles! Do you normally believe an explanation for which there is no evidence?
There is ample evidence for the evolution of humans. I acccept evolution because of the ample evidence. I reject ID as science because there is no scientific evidence for it and so it fails to make the grade as science.
I have already pointed out that the lack of evidence strengthens the case for ID.
So the lack of evidence for the existence of Zeus strengthens the scientific case for the existence of Thor? That is precisely why science requires positive evidence. In the absence of evidence all that we can say is “we do not konw because we do not have any evidence”. ID does not get to win by default.
“If it could be proved that intelligence has been produced by numerous, successive, slight modifications of living organisms it would annihilate ID theory because ID theory would become superfluous and confirm your belief that it is false.”
Insufficient. I do not want something that might not have been designed, I want something that cannot have been designed. As we have agreed, design can mimic other processes.
You have evaded my question. What exactly do these experiments demonstrate? The emergence of intelligence?
No, they demonstrate evolution happening in the lab in real time. I still await an equivalent experiment from the ID side.
How can we iIf you do not give us precise details of what you can show in the laboratory?
Certainly, see (Luria, Delbrück; 1943) Mutations of Bacteria from Virus Sensitivity to Virus Resistance. There is also a reasonable article on Wikipedia. This is science, and science is usually good about releasing all the data that you want. Remember the reference I gave to Lenski’s work; plenty more data there.

The contrast with the paucity of data from the ID side is obvious. ID is not science because it lacks the scientific data to back it up. Or can you give me references to similar experimental results from the ID side?

rossum
 
Ok, I answered your first question, now you’re asking another one. It might have been clearly and more courteous to thank me for replying and then proceed to make another request for information.
Thank you for your thoughtful response 🙂
There are several natural systems and processes that are analogous to the “artifacts” which are the product of intelligent agents – from them, the inference that there was an intelligent agent acting in nature is the most reasonable answer.
Despite the fact that evolution offers an explanation for DNA, the bacterial flagellum, the eye, and blood clotting, you and others still have yet to show why the complexity of these phenomena indicates intelligent design.

I think the “intelligently designed artifacts” analogy is faulty. I can repeatedly observe the construction of an intricate watch, for example, at a local retailer and conclude that it is the result of “intelligent design” after watching the proprietor meticulously assemble it. Thus, when I observe this product (e.g. seeing others wearing watches) I can reasonably conclude that design is responsible because I have witnessed the process by which it is made. However, you and others haven’t proposed experiments that could be conducted or observations that could be made that would demonstrate how the complexity of natural phenomena, such as the eye, arose because of ID.
 
Your baseless personal attacks regarding my faith reveal more about yourself than they ever could about me. You have absolutely no right to make these claims, and I hope you soon recognize the error in your ways.
Don’t lie; are you Catholic?

jd
 
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