Is Intercommunion with non-Catholics sinful?

[chaser]

“mere Christian”? Not sure what you are refering to there. You are not Catholic according to your “religion” section on the forums, so no I wouldn’t consider you Catholic. I would not use the word “mere” either as you are christian or not, I don’t think there are any degrees.

I do disagree with your thought that there is a lack of emphasis of a pursiot of a presonal relationship with God. Prayer is a huge part of a Catholic’s life and it is very much an important teaching of the church. I really think you are as mistaken about this point as perhaps I am of the true presence thing.

Perhaps I am mistaken! That’s why I’m here, to learn and grow In my faith.

My mere Christian mention was a reference to a post which only mildly veiled an insinuation that Christianity without Catholicism was a road straight to hell

 

[RyanBlack]

That’s new to me. I was Presbyterian growing up and it was not taught that way. It was a symbolic jesture at that church. Later in life when looking into religion, I talked to a Lutheran Pastor several times and they did not teach the true presence there either. Could have been that individual Pastor.

Well, I’m relieved to find out that I may have been wrong in some cases as I think this should be a very important point to any Christian.

I suspect that there are lots of Presbyterians who take a memorial meal view of the Eucharist. As to what the Lutheran pastor told you, I’m suspicious–not about your claim that you were told that, but about that pastor in general. Lutherans, as far as I know, don’t teach actual transubstantiation, but they do teach that Christ is truly present in the elements of bread and wine. I wonder which particular Lutheran denomination the pastor you spoke with is from.

 

[novusCatholic]

Catholics faithful to the Magisterial teachings do not participate in non-Catholic worship services.

I’m a little uncomfortable with this.

I am a recent convert and come from a Protestant background. I now completely believe that the Catholic Church is the one, true church where the fullness of God’s grace and teachings is found, but I also still believe that one can find salvation as a non-Catholic Christian.

I understand the idea of not participating in Communion in a Protestant church because they do see it differently than Catholics, and it could be construed as an endorsement. That being said, at least they are pausing to appreciate the body and blood sacrifice of Jesus, even if it is not as fully as it should be.

But, isn’t it a stretch to say that Catholics cannot even participate in prayer or worship services with non-Catholics? Even though these fellow Christians trully love God?

Christ ate with sinners, but we can’t worship God with Protestants???

 

[mcrow]

I suspect that there are lots of Presbyterians who take a memorial meal view of the Eucharist. As to what the Lutheran pastor told you, I’m suspicious–not about your claim that you were told that, but about that pastor in general. Lutherans, as far as I know, don’t teach actual transubstantiation, but they do teach that Christ is truly present in the elements of bread and wine. I wonder which particular Lutheran denomination the pastor you spoke with is from.

To be honest, I really don’t know which organization this Lutheran church was affiliated as at the time I didn’t know there was more than one.

 

[mcrow]

I’m a little uncomfortable with this.

I am a recent convert and come from a Protestant background. I now completely believe that the Catholic Church is the one, true church where the fullness of God’s grace and teachings is found, but I also still believe that one can find salvation as a non-Catholic Christian.

I understand the idea of not participating in Communion in a Protestant church because they do see it differently than Catholics, and it could be construed as an endorsement. That being said, at least they are pausing to appreciate the body and blood sacrifice of Jesus, even if it is not as fully as it should be.

But, isn’t it a stretch to say that Catholics cannot even participate in prayer or worship services with non-Catholics? Even though these fellow Christians trully love God?

Christ ate with sinners, but we can’t worship God with Protestants???

Maureen’s post is wrong. The church does not teach that we cannot attend protestant churches or church services so long as we still go to Mass and follow Catholic teachings. Of coruse, we shouldn’t take part in their communion but other than that it’s OK.

 

[shocktrooper]

Maureen’s post is wrong. The church does not teach that we cannot attend protestant churches or church services so long as we still go to Mass and follow Catholic teachings. Of coruse, we shouldn’t take part in their communion but other than that it’s OK.

It is my understanding that you are wrong. I thought that, as Catholics, we are not to participate in any other form of liturgical worship. I am pretty sure I am correct. Praying with a Protestant is not wrong, but worshiping God in a way not Catholic is a slap to your Mother’s face. I think there are exceptions to this rule such as funerals and weddings, but then again, these are not really worship services.

There is no “SACRIFICE” at a Protestant worship service. This defeats the whole point. You might as well just call it a bible study group.

Also, the pastor does not have the power to bring about ANY change to the host. So even if the communicant believes it is the “Real Presence”, it really isn’t. This is why Apostolic Succession is important. There needs to be a valid ordination.

Pax Christi.

 

[mcrow]

It is my understanding that you are wrong. I thought that, as Catholics, we are not to participate in any other form of liturgical worship. I am pretty sure I am correct. Praying with a Protestant is not wrong, but worshiping God in a way not Catholic is a slap to your Mother’s face. I think there are exceptions to this rule such as funerals and weddings, but then again, these are not really worship services.

There is no “SACRIFICE” at a Protestant worship service. This defeats the whole point. You might as well just call it a bible study group.

Also, the pastor does not have the power to bring about ANY change to the host. So even if the communicant believes it is the “Real Presence”, it really isn’t. This is why Apostolic Succession is important. There needs to be a valid ordination.

Pax Christi.

Go ahead, look it up. There is nothing saying you can’t go to a Lutheran church service. Again, as I stated, you cannot go to a Lutheran service instead of Mass. You still have to go to Mass. As you state, for a Catholic a protestant church service is nothing more than attending a christian lecture or bible study.

It is perectly fine for a Catholic to attend a protestant church so long as they are fulfilling their Catholic obligations. Otherwise, how would mixed marriages ever work?

cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=225

Ask any priest and they will tell you the same. The only time attending a protestant church is a sin is if you take their communion or attend that church in place of a valid Mass.

From PONTIFICIUM CONSILIUM AD CHRISTIANORUM UNITATEM FOVENDAM

DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF
PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM

Sharing in Non-Sacramental Liturgical Worship

1. By liturgical worship is meant worship carried out according to books, prescriptions and customs of a Church or ecclesial Community, presided over by a minister or delegate of that Church or Community. This liturgical worship may be of a non-sacramental kind, or may be the celebration of one or more of the Christian sacraments. The concern here is non-sacramental worship.

1. In some situations, the official prayer of a Church may be preferred to ecumenical services specially prepared for the occasion. Participation in such celebrations as Morning or Evening Prayer, special vigils, etc., will enable people of different liturgical traditions—Catholic, Eastern, Anglican and Protestant—to understand each other’s community prayer better and to share more deeply in traditions which often have developed from common roots.

118. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

So according to official church documents it’s OK to go to a protestant church, even encouraged.

 

[shocktrooper]

Go ahead, look it up. There is nothing saying you can’t go to a Lutheran church service. Again, as I stated, you cannot go to a Lutheran service instead of Mass. You still have to go to Mass. As you state, for a Catholic a protestant church service is nothing more than attending a christian lecture or bible study.

It is perectly fine for a Catholic to attend a protestant church so long as they are fulfilling their Catholic obligations. Otherwise, how would mixed marriages ever work?

cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=225

Ask any priest and they will tell you the same. The only time attending a protestant church is a sin is if you take their communion or attend that church in place of a valid Mass.

From PONTIFICIUM CONSILIUM AD CHRISTIANORUM UNITATEM FOVENDAM

DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF
PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM

Sharing in Non-Sacramental Liturgical Worship

So according to official church documents it’s OK to go to a protestant church, even encouraged.

HMMM. I am not so sure. The document seems to make clear that it is talking about Non-Sacramental worship, i.e. prayer gatherings or faith sharing events within or without a church building. It seems to not address sacramental liturgical worship which is what a Sunday service would be for Protestants. Paragraph 115 says that it is not advisable to organize an ecumenical service on Sunday. This seems to not be speaking of an actual Sunday worship service for Protestants, but simply services or events that they may put on.

1. Since the celebration of the Eucharist on the Lord’s Day is the foundation and centre of the whole liturgical year,120 Catholics—but those of Eastern Churches according to their own Law121—are obliged to attend Mass on that day and on days of precept.122 It is not advisable therefore to organize ecumenical services on Sundays, and it must be remembered that even when Catholics participate in ecumenical services or in services of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, the obligation of participating at Mass on these days remains.

Sharing in Non-Sacramental Liturgical Worship

1. By liturgical worship is meant worship carried out according to books, prescriptions and customs of a Church or ecclesial Community, presided over by a minister or delegate of that Church or Community. This liturgical worship may be of a non-sacramental kind, or may be the celebration of one or more of the Christian sacraments. The concern here is non-sacramental worship.
2. In some situations, the official prayer of a Church may be preferred to ecumenical services specially prepared for the occasion. Participation in such celebrations as Morning or Evening Prayer, special vigils, etc., will enable people of different liturgical traditions—Catholic, Eastern, Anglican and Protestant—to understand each other’s community prayer better and to share more deeply in traditions which often have developed from common roots.- this, to me, is clearly talking about non-Sunday Worship Services.
3. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.- again, this is talking about non-Sunday Worship Services- can you imagine the Catholic Church saying that on Sunday a Catholic layperson can get up in a Methodist Church and give the homily if allowed by the pastor?

I do not read this the way you do. I see a distinct line being drawn here between non-sacramental worship, (i.e prayer vigils at abortion clinics, faith sharing groups at the local Baptist Church, marriage ceremonies, funerals, or bible study groups…) and actual Sunday Worship Service that would be considered sacramental liturgical worship. Your position seems to be, and correct me if I am wrong, that the “sacramental” part that we can not partake in would be only the Communion reception of the service. My position is that the Sunday service, as a whole, is a sacramental liturgical worship service. I take this position because the service has rituals and rubrics that are held to by the Protestant pastors, or at least you would hope.

I am glad you linked me to this. It is very informative. I will have to read more of it and get a second opinion. I have certainly been wrong in the past. Thanks.

Pax Christi.

 

[shocktrooper]

Otherwise, how would mixed marriages ever work?

Mixed marriages usually don’t work, which is why the Catholic Church frowns upon them and discourages them. The marriages either end because of “irreconcilable differences” or one wins the other over. Very rarely do both spouses stay loyal to their original faith to death.

Pax Christi.

 

[mcrow]

HMMM. I am not so sure. The document seems to make clear that it is talking about Non-Sacramental worship, i.e. prayer gatherings or faith sharing events within or without a church building. It seems to not address sacramental liturgical worship which is what a Sunday service would be for Protestants. Paragraph 115 says that it is not advisable to organize an ecumenical service on Sunday. This seems to not be speaking of an actual Sunday worship service for Protestants, but simply services or events that they may put on.

1. Since the celebration of the Eucharist on the Lord’s Day is the foundation and centre of the whole liturgical year,120 Catholics—but those of Eastern Churches according to their own Law121—are obliged to attend Mass on that day and on days of precept.122 It is not advisable therefore to organize ecumenical services on Sundays, and it must be remembered that even when Catholics participate in ecumenical services or in services of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, the obligation of participating at Mass on these days remains.

Sharing in Non-Sacramental Liturgical Worship

1. By liturgical worship is meant worship carried out according to books, prescriptions and customs of a Church or ecclesial Community, presided over by a minister or delegate of that Church or Community. This liturgical worship may be of a non-sacramental kind, or may be the celebration of one or more of the Christian sacraments. The concern here is non-sacramental worship.
2. In some situations, the official prayer of a Church may be preferred to ecumenical services specially prepared for the occasion. Participation in such celebrations as Morning or Evening Prayer, special vigils, etc., will enable people of different liturgical traditions—Catholic, Eastern, Anglican and Protestant—to understand each other’s community prayer better and to share more deeply in traditions which often have developed from common roots.- this, to me, is clearly talking about non-Sunday Worship Services.
3. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.- again, this is talking about non-Sunday Worship Services- can you imagine the Catholic Church saying that on Sunday a Catholic layperson can get up in a Methodist Church and give the homily if allowed by the pastor?

I do not read this the way you do. I see a distinct line being drawn here between non-sacramental worship, (i.e prayer vigils at abortion clinics, faith sharing groups at the local Baptist Church, marriage ceremonies, funerals, or bible study groups…) and actual Sunday Worship Service that would be considered sacramental liturgical worship. Your position seems to be, and correct me if I am wrong, that the “sacramental” part that we can not partake in would be only the Communion reception of the service. My position is that the Sunday service, as a whole, is a sacramental liturgical worship service. I take this position because the service has rituals and rubrics that are held to by the Protestant pastors, or at least you would hope.

I am glad you linked me to this. It is very informative. I will have to read more of it and get a second opinion. I have certainly been wrong in the past. Thanks.

Pax Christi.

You missed the highlighted part below:

1. By liturgical worship is meant worship carried out according to books, prescriptions and customs of a Church or ecclesial Community, presided over by a minister or delegate of that Church or Community. This liturgical worship may be of a non-sacramental kind, or may be the celebration of one or more of the Christian sacraments. The concern here is non-sacramental worship.

Also, “liturgical worship” by definition is a church service or mass. A sacramental liturgical worship (a Mass) would be one with a Eucharist (and any other sacrament in it). So, Liturgical Worship is just a more broad term and “Mass” is a more specific form.

IMO, this pretty clearly states that it is OK to go to a non-Catholic church service.

 

[shocktrooper]

You missed the highlighted part below:

Also, “liturgical worship” by definition is a church service or mass. A sacramental liturgical worship (a Mass) would be one with a Eucharist (and any other sacrament in it). So, Liturgical Worship is just a more broad term and “Mass” is a more specific form.

IMO, this pretty clearly states that it is OK to go to a non-Catholic church service.

I disagree with the last two lines. A liturgical worship does not have to be a Sunday service that has a sacrament. A Protestant Sunday liturgical worship has Communion which makes the entire service sacramental, thus we should not be there. The article states that it is talking about non-sacramental services, e.g. those that don’t have a sacrament involved (this would be the other type of liturgical worship). It would be nice if the article gave us some examples that are liturgical worship but are not sacramental. As Catholics, we are allowed to attend Protestant non-sacramental liturgical services but not sacramental ones. Paragraph 116 simply states that liturgical worship comes in two forms, sacramental and non-sacramental. Then it goes on to say that the concern here in the following paragraphs is non-sacramental liturgy.

This is what I gather from the article…

1- non-sacramental liturgical services are services that have readings, psalms and prayer but no sacrament or no Communion (Eucharist for us). Thus we can partake.

2- sacramental liturgical worship service is a Protestant Sunday worship service that has Communion (Eucharist for us). Thus we cannot partake in the service as a whole, not just receiving Communion.

This is reminiscent of my question about attending Seder Meals at a Catholic Church or elsewhere. I conceded my position when it was proven to me that the Church does allow for Catholics to partake in Seder Meals as long as they are not part of a larger liturgy within another faith’s (Jewish) worship service. My position was that we could not partake in a Seder Meal at all even outside a Jewish Sabbath liturgy, i.e. in a friends home or cafeteria. There needs to be a clear line between what is true sacramental liturgical worship and what is not. I have no problem praying with my fellow Christians. My entire family on my side is Lutheran but I will never go to Sunday service with my mom. That would be like cheating on my wife (Catholic Church) with another woman. I know the Church includes all validly baptized Christians but it still seems slimy.

Thanks.

 

[mcrow]

I disagree with the last two lines. A liturgical worship does not have to be a Sunday service that has a sacrament.

I didn’t say that it had to be a Sunday or have a sacrament to be liturgical worship.

A Protestant Sunday liturgical worship has Communion which makes the entire service sacramental, thus we should not be there

Most protestant churches don’t have communion every week, some it’s more like once per month or every 12 weeks or so.

Second, their communion isn’t a sacrament because it isn’t peformed by a ordained priest. So, the Catholic church does not consider any protestant service with communion a sacrament.

1- non-sacramental liturgical services are services that have readings, psalms and prayer but no sacrament or no Communion (Eucharist for us). Thus we can partake.

Correct minus the communion. As stated above, it isn’t a valid Eucharist so it isn’t a sacrament.

2- sacramental liturgical worship service is a Protestant Sunday worship service that has Communion (Eucharist for us). Thus we cannot partake in the service as a whole, not just receiving Communion.

The document specificly states which parts of the services you can participate in: “psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.”

 

[shocktrooper]

Most protestant churches don’t have communion every week, some it’s more like once per month or every 12 weeks or so.

True, I was speaking of how my old Lutheran services were. Their Sunday service was Catholic in many ways.

Second, their communion isn’t a sacrament because it isn’t peformed by a ordained priest. So, the Catholic church does not consider any protestant service with communion a sacrament.

It might not be a sacrament in the eyes of us but to them it is surely a sacrament. At least in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

Correct minus the communion. As stated above, it isn’t a valid Eucharist so it isn’t a sacrament.

I agree with you but try convincing them of that.

To be honest with you, I don’t see how any non-denominational or liberal Protestant churches can be considered anything sacramental. Everything they seem to do is so disgraceful to the True Liturgy.

The document specificly states which parts of the services you can participate in: “psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.”

This I addressed earlier. These are things we can partake in that are not part of a sacramental liturgy, the Sunday service. I can’t see the Church endorsing a Catholic to stand and preach during a Sunday baptist service if the preacher allowed him to. This would be very odd. The document already stated that it was concerned with non-sacramental worship.

Thanks.