Is invincible ignorance a thin line to travel for Protestants?

[JD27076]

When Protestant Salvation comes to mind, the only answer we can give is ‘Invincible ignorance’… Though this seems like a very thin line to travel to heaven, versus the straight and clear path through the Catholic Church.

That is like trying to pass an exam without studying the lesson. It rarely happens and you were not prepared.

Now I try to think the best that the Catholic Faith permits me to believe about my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I do not believe their salvation is as easy put as we try and portray it to be to them.

Like I always bring about, Pope Boniface XIII ( I believe) infallibly stated that one cannot enter heaven without acknowledging the primacy of the Roman Papacy. I talked a Catholic deacon who happens to be a professor, his only response was that its through invincible ignorance, again.

If thats the case, then everyone can be saved through invincible ignorance. Everyone who is not a Catholic are to some extent ignorant of the Truth of Jesus. Therefore were all saved.

Now people like Matt Slick and Mike Grendgon…Where do they lie? They know a lot about the Catholic Church (Or what they seem to know about it.)… will they go to heaven by invincible ignorance?

Once again, I am not bashing our Protestant Brothers and Sisters…I just want to know where we can draw the line when we state, “Invincible Ignorance.”

 

[thistle]

When Protestant Salvation comes to mind, the only answer we can give is ‘Invincible ignorance’… Though this seems like a very thin line to travel to heaven, versus the straight and clear path through the Catholic Church.

That is like trying to pass an exam without studying the lesson. It rarely happens and you were not prepared.

Now I try to think the best that the Catholic Faith permits me to believe about my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I do not believe their salvation is as easy put as we try and portray it to be to them.

Like I always bring about, Pope Boniface XIII ( I believe) infallibly stated that one cannot enter heaven without acknowledging the primacy of the Roman Papacy. I talked a Catholic deacon who happens to be a professor, his only response was that its through invincible ignorance, again.

If thats the case, then everyone can be saved through invincible ignorance. Everyone who is not a Catholic are to some extent ignorant of the Truth of Jesus. Therefore were all saved.

Now people like Matt Slick and Mike Grendgon…Where do they lie? They know a lot about the Catholic Church (Or what they seem to know about it.)… will they go to heaven by invincible ignorance?

Once again, I am not bashing our Protestant Brothers and Sisters…I just want to know where we can draw the line when we state, “Invincible Ignorance.”

If invincible ignorance applies to Protestants and they can be saved then I guess I wasted my time converting from Methodism to the Catholic Church.
The Church does not list who is or is not captured under invincible ignorance so the best you can get is opinions. Remember that. You will get people stating all sorts of things about who can be saved under invicible ignorance but they are just opinions. The Church does not teach what specific people or groups are captured under this.
In my opinion invincible ignorance applies to hardly anyone on the planet, and certainly not to non-Catholic Christians.

 

[TeenageConvert]

When Protestant Salvation comes to mind, the only answer we can give is ‘Invincible ignorance’… Though this seems like a very thin line to travel to heaven, versus the straight and clear path through the Catholic Church.

That is like trying to pass an exam without studying the lesson. It rarely happens and you were not prepared.

Now I try to think the best that the Catholic Faith permits me to believe about my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I do not believe their salvation is as easy put as we try and portray it to be to them.

Like I always bring about, Pope Boniface XIII ( I believe) infallibly stated that one cannot enter heaven without acknowledging the primacy of the Roman Papacy. I talked a Catholic deacon who happens to be a professor, his only response was that its through invincible ignorance, again.

If thats the case, then everyone can be saved through invincible ignorance. Everyone who is not a Catholic are to some extent ignorant of the Truth of Jesus. Therefore were all saved.

Now people like Matt Slick and Mike Grendgon…Where do they lie? They know a lot about the Catholic Church (Or what they seem to know about it.)… will they go to heaven by invincible ignorance?

Once again, I am not bashing our Protestant Brothers and Sisters…I just want to know where we can draw the line when we state, “Invincible Ignorance.”

Honestly the answer is we don’t know where the “line” is.
But people look at invincible ignorance the wrong way. It’s not supposed to be a reason for us not to evangelize so we will be more liked and not seen as “intolerant fundamentalists”. It’s supposed to be a hope in the infinite mercy of God that perhaps he’ll have mercy.
I think the mentality Catholics have about Invincible Ignorance is really hurtful to us. It gives an excuse(a really bad one!!) to sit back and pray instead of praying and reaching out as we should. Protestants are so enthusiastic about sharing God’s love to anyone and everyone who clearly lacks knowledge of it, and people see that and they go to them when they have spiritual crises. They don’t go to the Catholic who keeps his faith and convictions private at all times not risking being offensive or who thinks that anyone and everyone will be saved because they don’t think that they’ll be much help.

 

[JerryZ]

Honestly the answer is we don’t know where the “line” is.
But people look at invincible ignorance the wrong way. It’s not supposed to be a reason for us not to evangelize so we will be more liked and not seen as “intolerant fundamentalists”. It’s supposed to be a hope in the infinite mercy of God that perhaps he’ll have mercy.
I think the mentality Catholics have about Invincible Ignorance is really hurtful to us. It gives an excuse(a really bad one!!) to sit back and pray instead of praying and reaching out as we should. Protestants are so enthusiastic about sharing God’s love to anyone and everyone who clearly lacks knowledge of it, and people see that and they go to them when they have spiritual crises. They don’t go to the Catholic who keeps his faith and convictions private at all times not risking being offensive or who thinks that anyone and everyone will be saved because they don’t think that they’ll be much help.

Haven’t 2 popes already said we Catholics should “Learn and Imitate” our protestant brothers in their zeal to evangelize and propagate the faith?
It is also true that in order to do this WE need to learn our faith a lot better than we currently have as the Catholic Radio Motto goes “Learn our Faith, Share our Faith”.

 

[Mijoy2]

In my opinion invincible ignorance applies to hardly anyone on the planet, and certainly not to non-Catholic Christians.

I am so glad you qualified this as this “in my opinion”.
Since we are on an “in my opinion” theme, in my opinion, it applies to most everyone, very likely, myself included. Not a day goes by where I am, certain, I am on the right track (speaking as a devout Catholic). Therefore if wrong, I sure hope I am on someones “invincible ignorance” list.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

You know the prideful don’t make it to heaven don’t you?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

For the OP:
"He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14 ESV)

You might want to study this passage for a while.

 

[JD27076]

For the OP:
"He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14 ESV)

You might want to study this passage for a while.

Thank you…Really. Thank you for this passage.

 

[HelenRose]

If invincible ignorance applies to Protestants and they can be saved then I guess I wasted my time converting from Methodism to the Catholic Church.
The Church does not list who is or is not captured under invincible ignorance so the best you can get is opinions. Remember that. You will get people stating all sorts of things about who can be saved under invicible ignorance but they are just opinions. The Church does not teach what specific people or groups are captured under this.
In my opinion invincible ignorance applies to hardly anyone on the planet, and certainly not to non-Catholic Christians.

I would be a Catholic if everyone in the whole world is included. Life is more that just trying to avoid Hell… it is the reaching out for the true and beautiful and there is nothing truer nor more beautiful than the Catholic Church.

Thinking that the Catholic Church is a waste of time only because someone else just may be included, is a strange way at looking at the great gift of Christ’s salvation.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Remember, just because you’re not going to Hell for being a Catholic possibly due to invincible ignorance that doesn’t mean that you’re not going to Hell. If you commit a mortal sin and you’re not part of one of the Apostolic Churches you have no access to confession. The best you can hope for is that you’ve asked for forgiveness with true remorse, or never committed a fully mortal sin. Without access to confession your way to salvation is a lot harder, invincible ignorance or not.

 

[lifeandhope]

I’ve only been a Catholic for a year and do not know much about invincible ignorance. However, as someone who has been a devout Evangelical my whole life I was always searching, searching, searching for more. More from a church, more from worship, more answers for what to do with my suffering, more connection to Jesus, more depth from my church experiences and faith. My searching led me to the Catholic Church, and I have finally found my Home. I finally know that there is a deeper way to worship, connect with Jesus through the Eucharist, offer up my pain in redemptive suffering. In my heart, I just knew there had to be more out there than what I found in the many churches and denominational experiences I encountered. So I may have been “invincibly ignorant” as to where my Home was, but I was NOT “invincibly ignorant” that there was the existance of that Home. I searched until I found–rather, was found by–Jesus. I humbly thank God every day for the honour of being a Catholic Christian and for the salvation of my soul through Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

When Protestant Salvation comes to mind, the only answer we can give is 'Invincible ignorance'.... Though this seems like a very thin line to travel to heaven, versus the straight and clear path through the Catholic Church.

That is like trying to pass an exam without studying the lesson. It rarely happens and you were not prepared.

Now I try to think the best that the Catholic Faith permits me to believe about my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I do not believe their salvation is as easy put as we try and portray it to be to them.

Like I always bring about, Pope Boniface XIII ( I believe) infallibly stated that one cannot enter heaven without acknowledging the primacy of the Roman Papacy. I talked a Catholic deacon who happens to be a professor, his only response was that its through invincible ignorance, again.

If thats the case, then everyone can be saved through invincible ignorance. Everyone who is not a Catholic are to some extent ignorant of the Truth of Jesus. Therefore were all saved.

No.

The Church teaches that people who, through no fault of their own, do not know enough to acknowlege the One Church founded by Christ MAY be saved, not that they WILL be.

Now people like Matt Slick and Mike Grendgon…Where do they lie? They know a lot about the Catholic Church (Or what they seem to know about it.)… will they go to heaven by invincible ignorance?

Once again, I am not bashing our Protestant Brothers and Sisters…I just want to know where we can draw the line when we state, “Invincible Ignorance.”

I think it is especially difficult in this modern technological age not to hear and take responsibility to educate oneself about the claims of the CC. However I am aware that many people are given misinformation and downright lies about the Church, and they will not be held responsible for wrong they were told. They will be responsible, though, for not finding out if what they were told is true.

What we need to do is focus on the responsibility that humans have before God to check on the claims of the Church, educate themselves, and make an informed decision.

 

[guanophore]

If invincible ignorance applies to Protestants and they can be saved then I guess I wasted my time converting from Methodism to the Catholic Church.
The Church does not list who is or is not captured under invincible ignorance so the best you can get is opinions. Remember that. You will get people stating all sorts of things about who can be saved under invicible ignorance but they are just opinions. The Church does not teach what specific people or groups are captured under this.
In my opinion invincible ignorance applies to hardly anyone on the planet, and certainly not to non-Catholic Christians.

It applies to those who are ignorant. Obviously at some point your ignorance receded enough for you to make a change of direction, wouldn’t you say?

The truth is that the Church does not define salvation by groups at all. Each soul has an individual choice and responsibility to respond to God’s grace. The Church will never proclaim that any “group” does not meet the criteria for salvation. What the Church does do is define the parameters passed down to us from Christ through the Apostles.

None of us can really know who is invincibly ignorant. Only God can judge. Here is some official Catholic teaching on the subject.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

If invincible ignorance applies to Protestants and they can be saved then I guess I wasted my time converting from Methodism to the Catholic Church.

Thistle this is a complete non sequitor. There is also vincible ignorance. If you were VI and the Holy Spirit enlightened your ignorance then you were bound to follow to the Catholic Church or puit your salvation at risk.

In my opinion invincible ignorance applies to hardly anyone on the planet, and certainly not to non-Catholic Christians.

OK you are getting scary here. Perhaps you are invincibly ignorant of what invincible ignorance truly means .

 

[HelenRose]

I am certainly glad that God is the one who decides what “invincible ignorance” is in each person and it is not my job.

I understand the point however about being deliberately ignorant. It isn’t a good plan to presume God’s mercy. I don’t know what the answer is but I strongly suspect we all walk a thin line of presumption of God’s mercy and perhaps we all make the mistake of assuming God’s condemnation as well.

The main question in my mind is: how do we help non-believers to the truth. It certainly doesn’t work to walk up to someone and say, “If you aren’t a Catholic you are going to hell.” One may think that doing something like that satisfies the requirement to spread God’s Good News but it isn’t really very effective.

When faced with this problem, I turn to the Fatima prayer," My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love You! I ask pardon of You for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love You!"

 

[HelenRose]

It applies to those who are ignorant. Obviously at some point your ignorance receded enough for you to make a change of direction, wouldn’t you say?

The truth is that the Church does not define salvation by groups at all. Each soul has an individual choice and responsibility to respond to God’s grace. The Church will never proclaim that any “group” does not meet the criteria for salvation. What the Church does do is define the parameters passed down to us from Christ through the Apostles.

None of us can really know who is invincibly ignorant. Only God can judge. Here is some official Catholic teaching on the subject.

Thank you for that link.

 

[steve_b]

When Protestant Salvation comes to mind, the only answer we can give is ‘Invincible ignorance’… Though this seems like a very thin line to travel to heaven, versus the straight and clear path through the Catholic Church.

That is like trying to pass an exam without studying the lesson. It rarely happens and you were not prepared.

Now I try to think the best that the Catholic Faith permits me to believe about my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I do not believe their salvation is as easy put as we try and portray it to be to them.

Like I always bring about, Pope Boniface XIII ( I believe) infallibly stated that one cannot enter heaven without acknowledging the primacy of the Roman Papacy. I talked a Catholic deacon who happens to be a professor, his only response was that its through invincible ignorance, again.

If thats the case, then everyone can be saved through invincible ignorance. Everyone who is not a Catholic are to some extent ignorant of the Truth of Jesus. Therefore were all saved.

Now people like Matt Slick and Mike Grendgon…Where do they lie? They know a lot about the Catholic Church (Or what they seem to know about it.)… will they go to heaven by invincible ignorance?

Once again, I am not bashing our Protestant Brothers and Sisters…I just want to know where we can draw the line when we state, “Invincible Ignorance.”

Invincible ignorance is the kind that no amount of study corrects. So the question is, what is it about the faith, that regardless of much study, it won’t lead a person to the faith? And is that necessarily the result of invincible ignorance?

If we’re talking about rocket science, and higher math, which we aren’t, and no amount of study can gurantee everyone who takes the test on this subject will get an A, and many might get an F, I think one could make a case for invincible ignorance for many on that subject. They just don’t have the brain power.

But what about faith? Does it have the same difficulty quotient as rocket science for people? I tend to think no.

God already tells us He desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth [1 Tim 2:4] Therefore, He gives the grace to everyone do that. So to me the deck is stacked in God’s favor. Who then, under those conditions, could qualify as invincibly ignorant?

Does anyone have the Church explaining invincible ignorance in greater detail?

 

[guanophore]

Invincible ignorance is the kind that no amount of study corrects. So the question is, what is it about the faith, that regardless of much study, it won't lead a person to the faith? And is that necessarily the result of invincible ignorance?

You are right, but I think the better way to put the question is what is it about the person, that (unless you meant their faith, or lack of it) that prevents them from coming to believe. A person can study with an intent toward finding proof against something, or with the intent to find that which they know not.

If we’re talking about rocket science, and higher math, which we aren’t, and no amount of study can gurantee everyone who takes the test on this subject will get an A, and many might get an F, I think one could make a case for invincible ignorance for many on that subject. They just don’t have the brain power.

But what about faith? Does it have the same difficulty quotient as rocket science for people? I tend to think no.

God already tells us He desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth [1 Tim 2:4] Therefore, He gives the grace to everyone do that. So to me the deck is stacked in God’s favor. Who then, under those conditions, could qualify as invincibly ignorant?

Does anyone have the Church explaining invincible ignorance in greater detail?

You mean, more than the links already posted?

 

[JonNC]

No.

The Church teaches that people who, through no fault of their own, do not know enough to acknowlege the One Church founded by Christ MAY be saved, not that they WILL be.

I think it is especially difficult in this modern technological age not to hear and take responsibility to educate oneself about the claims of the CC. However I am aware that many people are given misinformation and downright lies about the Church, and they will not be held responsible for wrong they were told. They will be responsible, though, for not finding out if what they were told is true.

What we need to do is focus on the responsibility that humans have before God to check on the claims of the Church, educate themselves, and make an informed decision.

Guan,
I think few here who know me will say that I am “ignorant” in these matters, though that’s not to say I have no room to learn. How does this apply to me?

Jon

 

[steve_b]

You mean, more than the links already posted?

Yes