Is Invitro okay to do as a Catholic?

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I thought no and not under any circumstance. I’m very upset that my friend just got pope consent that it is okay to have invitro done? I’m totally confused and very upset. What is going on with the Church? I know there are other ways such as gift but didnt know invitro was ok,
 
Don’t be upset or confused. The moral okness of IVF probably depends upon the methods used. There are probably ways to do it that would be OK.

If the man isn’t masturbating to obtain the sperm, and they’re only using one egg at a time and not freezing any ‘spares’, for example, then I don’t know that there really WOULD be anything else wrong with it, so it might be OK :confused:

Ask your friend about the process - she may be excited enough to want to share 🤷

Otherwise - there’s no reason not to trust the Vatican’s judgement on something like this - they probably have lots of cases so they’d know what they’re on about.
 
I am not sure exactly what the Catholic faith says on this issue but just logically it would seem like it shouldn’t be done. As you all know, the egg is fertilized with the sperm in a lab in a petri dish. First of all, the man has to donate sperm somehow and I am sure using that special condom from the Pope wouldn’t work because it’s probably not sterile and there is no way he could get it to the lab in time if they did the sperm collection method the Catholic way.

But the more obvious reason I am surprised she was able to do it is because when they fertilize eggs in the lab, there are a lot more eggs fertilized than are implanted in the woman. They fertilize about 12 or so eggs if possible and implant about 5 or 6 and statistically only 1 or 2 eggs survive. So in other words, 12 eggs are fertilized with knowledge that only one or two will survive. And also, the eggs that are not implanted into the woman are discarded. The Catholic church teaches taht life begins at conception so theoretically lives are being created with knowledge that a lot will not survive.
 
If your friend is claiming a document from the Pope granting her permission, she should be able to show you a copy. It is very doubtful she can produce one, as the Church has spoken on this topic many times:

The Vatican on IVF:

(There are many documents on the Vatican web site, this is only one)

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

The USCCB on IVF:

usccb.org/prolife/issues/ivf/index.shtml

The National Catholic Bioethics Center FAQ on IVF:

ncbcenter.org/bioethical_faqs.asp
 
There is also, of course, the possibility that your friend is confused as to the terminolgy, and actually does mean to refer to some other process, one of the ones that IS more acceptable to the Church. Don’t assume the worst.
 
she didnt actually say from the pope,she said she asked the pastor of the Church and he took the question to Rome and they got permission
 
I am not sure exactly what the Catholic faith says on this issue but just logically it would seem like it shouldn’t be done. As you all know, the egg is fertilized with the sperm in a lab in a petri dish. First of all, the man has to donate sperm somehow and I am sure using that special condom from the Pope wouldn’t work because it’s probably not sterile and there is no way he could get it to the lab in time if they did the sperm collection method the Catholic way.

But the more obvious reason I am surprised she was able to do it is because when they fertilize eggs in the lab, there are a lot more eggs fertilized than are implanted in the woman. They fertilize about 12 or so eggs if possible and implant about 5 or 6 and statistically only 1 or 2 eggs survive. So in other words, 12 eggs are fertilized with knowledge that only one or two will survive. And also, the eggs that are not implanted into the woman are discarded. The Catholic church teaches taht life begins at conception so theoretically lives are being created with knowledge that a lot will not survive.
I’ve said this before in a thread and provoked horrified reaction, so be warned … firstly sperm can be removed from the man by needle under local anaesthetic if necessary, which is a perfectly fine method ethically.

Secondly - just because NORMAL procedure is to harvest, fertilise and implant multiple eggs (it’s mainly a money-saving thing) might not mean it has to be done that way in every single case. Like I said, assuming that it is possible to harvest, fertilise and implant just a single egg, what would be wrong with that?
 
Your friend, or his pastor, is lying.

Unless there is a serious confusion.
 
The Church has determined that IVF is morally wrong for the same reason why contraception is morally wrong – both separate sex and reproduction (or the unitive and procreative act.)

The Church cannot give permission to use IVF any more than they can give permission to use contraception. The church cannot decide what’s moral and what isn’t – it can only uncover the moral law designed by God and teach us about it. Not even the pope can change the moral law.
I’ve said this before in a thread and provoked horrified reaction, so be warned … firstly sperm can be removed from the man by needle under local anaesthetic if necessary, which is a perfectly fine method ethically.

Secondly - just because NORMAL procedure is to harvest, fertilise and implant multiple eggs (it’s mainly a money-saving thing) might not mean it has to be done that way in every single case. Like I said, assuming that it is possible to harvest, fertilise and implant just a single egg, what would be wrong with that?
 
The Church has determined that IVF is morally wrong for the same reason why contraception is morally wrong – both separate sex and reproduction (or the unitive and procreative act.)

The Church cannot give permission to use IVF any more than they can give permission to use contraception. The church cannot decide what’s moral and what isn’t – it can only uncover the moral law designed by God and teach us about it. Not even the pope can change the moral law.
But don’t permissible technolgies like GIFT essentially do the same thing as IVF would in the circumstances I’ve outlined? :confused:

Isn’t the reproductive aspect pretty well removed from the unitive aspect in GIFT too? I don’t see any relevant difference.
 
Secondly - just because NORMAL procedure is to harvest, fertilise and implant multiple eggs (it’s mainly a money-saving thing) might not mean it has to be done that way in every single case. Like I said, assuming that it is possible to harvest, fertilise and implant just a single egg, what would be wrong with that?
I work in a lab and I am somewhat familiar with the process. I have never heard of them fertilizing just one egg. There may be a process that I don’t know about but I don’t see how fertilizing just one egg can be done.

And fertilizing more than one egg isn’t for saving money it’s because of statistics and logic.

As I am sure everyone knows, the woman takes fertility drugs to stimulate egg production. The eggs are harvested using a hollow needle and they aspirate eggs. While the woman is still sedated, a lab tech looks at the aspirate to verify there are eggs. The point I am trying to make here is that the doctor has no control over how many eggs, if any, he/she is aspirating. I think the average is 10-12 eggs but a lot of time the number could be lower or higher.

But technically the number of harvested eggs isn’t a concern regarding the Catholic faith because they aren’t fertilized.

After the harvest, there is a very small window of time to fertilize the eggs. The eggs are put in a petri dish with sperm and the sperm is allowed to fertilize on its own. With this method, they can’t put just one egg in there because statistically it would never get fertilized. But on the contrary, with multiple eggs in the dish, there is no control of how many eggs are fertilized. There is also a method where they use a special needle to physically insert a sperm into the egg when the sperm count is low. That method can sort of control the number that are fertilized but statistically it’s still a bad idea to do just one. The reason is because they won’t know immediately if the egg is viable or not. By the time they do know if the egg is viable it’s too late to fertilize the other eggs if it’s not viable. So in other words, they would have to start then entire egg harvest over meaning waiting through another cycle and more sedation for the woman, etc.

In the past only embryos (fertilized eggs) and sperm could be frozen but now they are learning how to freeze unfertilized eggs. But it’s still a rare process and there are very few labs that do it so it’s not an option in most areas to freeze unfertilized eggs in hopes of using them later. It has been done and women have gotten pregnant using thawed out eggs but it’s not a common practice.

Once fertilization has taken place they inspect all of the eggs to make sure they are dividing correctly. This is done about 24 - 48 hrs after fertilization. After 3 -5 days after fertilization, they select the best fertilized eggs for implanting. . So, it’s better to do multiple eggs in order to have at least one or two viable eggs. They can’t take the chance of only allowing one egg to be fertilized because that fertilized egg may not be viable or it might have something wrong with it

And the process the woman has to go through to stimulate egg production and to have the eggs harvested is way too invasive to just fertilize one egg at a time and hope it works. If it doesn’t work she has to wait until another cycle and then go though the whole thing again.

I think four is the maximum number of fertilized eggs they will implant and that is age dependent. In some countries they will only implant one or two eggs in order to avoid multiple births. Older women will have three or four eggs implanted while younger women only have one or two implanted. So, if there is going to be success with invitro, they have to fertilize more than one egg.

And embryos can be frozen for later use by either the woman they came from or she can donate them.

Also, if needed, they collect sperm from an incision in a testicle but they prefer the less invasive method of collection if possible.

So I guess if they fertilize one egg at a time and freeze the other eggs (if that procedure is available) and retrieve sperm directly from the testicle, it would follow Catholic law. I guess it took me writing this whole thing out to come to that conclusion. 😊
 
But don’t permissible technolgies like GIFT essentially do the same thing as IVF would in the circumstances I’ve outlined? :confused:

Isn’t the reproductive aspect pretty well removed from the unitive aspect in GIFT too? I don’t see any relevant difference.
Also, GIFT is a somewhat outdated method. Laproscopic surgery has to be done to do that and the in vitro methods are not as invasive. And with GIFT, fertilization does occur inside the body but it is only 25 - 30% effective and there are lot higher chances of multiple births. But ethically I think GIFT is a better method.
 
Hi,

Here is the document from the USCCB explaining IVF and GIFT:

usccb.org/prolife/programs/rlp/98rlphaa.shtml

According to the document, theologians have not yet decided if GIFT is moral. The difference seems to be that the fertilization occurs inside the women. But the treatment is still controversial within the church. The link I posted also gives alternate reasons why IVF is wrong

At any rate, I don’t believe the story from the OP’s friend because the pope cannot give consent to do a procedure that is immoral, and if the procedure was moral, no consent would be needed to perform it anyway.
But don’t permissible technolgies like GIFT essentially do the same thing as IVF would in the circumstances I’ve outlined? :confused:

Isn’t the reproductive aspect pretty well removed from the unitive aspect in GIFT too? I don’t see any relevant difference.
 
Hi,

Here is the document from the USCCB explaining IVF and GIFT:

usccb.org/prolife/programs/rlp/98rlphaa.shtml

According to the document, theologians have not yet decided if GIFT is moral. The difference seems to be that the fertilization occurs inside the women. But the treatment is still controversial within the church. The link I posted also gives alternate reasons why IVF is wrong

At any rate, I don’t believe the story from the OP’s friend because the pope cannot give consent to do a procedure that is immoral, and if the procedure was moral, no consent would be needed to perform it anyway.
Fair enough - I didn’t realise there was controversy about GIFT too, the responses make more sense now.

Assuming that the problem with IVF were to be with aspects of the method rather than it being viewed as an intrinsically immoral thing to do, a couple might seek - not permission to do it exactly, but rather guidance from some Vatican authority as to what methods were permissible or something. I suppose there would be some possibility of mistake in such a case 🤷

But it does sound unlikely.
 
Your friend, or his pastor, is lying.

Unless there is a serious confusion.
I’ll be charitable and say there is confusion.

The Vatican works very, very slowly. There’s no way they read all these letters asking for permission from pastors all over the world and grant permission. If something requires permission, you would ask your bishop. These things are to do with cannon law or rules of the diocese or something - like getting married in a hurry when the diocese usually says you have to wait six months. Little exceptions to the rules like that. If the Church says something is morally wrong, they’re not going to make any exceptions.
 
No, it isn’t.

You could remain merely Christian and support the culture of death. You’d be supporting mortal sin upon mortal sin until you get your “choice” baby.

Or you could give it up and trust God is doing for you what He wills. If you cannot conceive perhaps God is trying to get you to love in another way?

Peace,

Gail
 
just a little FYI!
I grew up in Faith in this particular church that told her this. This is the church where I learned ivf was wrong. And now she is telling me she got some kind of permission from them???
I went ahead and emailed the deacon. I let him know that I was very disappointed in the church that “raised” me. All he did was confirm what you all have told me and what I believe. So the answer is , my so called friend is either lying to me to get my blessing to use ivf or she misunderstood what was explained to her …thanks for your posts…i’m thinking maybe she got permission on what the lab tech poster said. But wouldnt it be against our faith to freeze embryos or eggs???

 
I work in a lab and I am somewhat familiar with the process. I have never heard of them fertilizing just one egg. There may be a process that I don’t know about but I don’t see how fertilizing just one egg can be done.
…So I guess if they fertilize one egg at a time and freeze the other eggs (if that procedure is available) and retrieve sperm directly from the testicle, it would follow Catholic law. I guess it took me writing this whole thing out to come to that conclusion. 😊
…i’m thinking maybe she got permission on what the lab tech poster said. But wouldnt it be against our faith to freeze embryos or eggs???

No, retrieving sperm directly from the testicle would not follow Catholic law. The child must be product of marital relations, not of laboratory injections etc. (You can read about this in the links a couple of posters have included above) In other words, if marital relations did not take place, you know its not in line with the Church.
 
not good guys, i mentioned that i think someone is not telling her the whole truth and she got really mad at me. she thought i’d be happy for her but i cant be happy for a sin. I mean i’m happy that someone has a baby but not happy about the sins it involves to make it …im so confused …she tells me they got permission from rome but i really dont understand why the pope would allow invitro? does he do it under circumstances?
 
not good guys, i mentioned that i think someone is not telling her the whole truth and she got really mad at me. she thought i’d be happy for her but i cant be happy for a sin. I mean i’m happy that someone has a baby but not happy about the sins it involves to make it …im so confused …she tells me they got permission from rome but i really dont understand why the pope would allow invitro? does he do it under circumstances?
We have posted you links where you can read what the Vatican has to say on the matter.

Out of charity, my advice is that you let the matter drop between the two of you, she is either being misled or has convinced herself of this lie. Pray for her conversion of heart.

If she is causing scandal or there is a chance she could lead others into sin, speak to your Priest then trust him to do what is best.
 
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