Is Islam a threat to Christianity around the globe?

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Mosacked

And Catholics and Orthodox both visit the tombs of saints in order to acknowledge them as the paragons of virtue they are. Im not saying Muhammad is a paragon of virtue but the muslims see him that way.

As to the black rock i have said its a disgusting piece of paganism in the heart of a monotheistic religion, but id assumed they see it in the way relics of saints, places such as the spring at lourdes and other such things are seen by non-protestant (the majority) christianity. They see it as a holy artifact. I think its a piece of paganism Muhammad allowed in to keep the people happy, but such is life.
Staffsgt7

Firstly I thank you for responding in a civil way

Secondly, I have read the Quran and i can agree with you when you say that it is, in many places a rather disturbing book. But i can find no evidence that they worship a rock or Muhammad. I do know they try to touch the rock when their circambulating the Ka’aba which serves only as a focal point of prayer, like the temple mount in Judaism. Im not aware of actual worship of said rock or Muhammad, and thats after much research.

Your comments appear to me in the same light as protestant comments about Catholics worshipping Mary come across. I know your not antagonistic towards me personally, but you surely understand how I with much research on Islam, and experience with protestants misinterpreting veneration with worship i can honestly say Muhammad worship to my knowledge doesn;t exist within Islam.

The site you referenced i have looked at and can determine only that it is a site designed to be highly critical of Islam, in many cases legitimately, but on others it oversteps the bounds of criticism into paranoia and scaremongering. I’d suggest using multiple sources when researching Islam as by using this site only your positioning yourself to fall into one view without understanding the others. Sort of like textual analysis.

And i have to say i agree with you when you say many muslims have a self superiority complex about themselves and criticise others while ignoring their own vast failings.
 
One thing about shirk that I notice in Islam is that they think that Mohammed is going to be there to interceded on their day of resurrection (Hadith B1,7,331). Mohammed places himself with his Allah.

Some Muslims judge all the time in order to justify Jihad and the killing of others for Allah’s Cause. Muslims claim all the time those Jihadists are misunderstanding Islam when in fact it says in the Koran and Hadith more times than I care to point out that the Jihadists have the backing of the Koran. With sanctioned deception we can pretty much put one and one together and figure out that the violent ones, the ones we call extremists or radicals, have the power in Islam because the others do nothing to change it. There is more to it since I have pointed out many times that Muslim Charity and taqiyya is also waging Jihad and Sharia laws totally back up the violence in Islam.

If they took the time or even tried to understand the Christians Trinity then they would have to change Islam or to leave it. They could still do nothing but would they be a threat to anyone? They do nothing now to stop the violent Jihadists. I think I just talked myself into a circle here. Doing nothing helps the violent Jihadists no matter what the mental state of a Muslim is in. If they tolerate others they do nothing to stop violent Jihadists, if they do not tolerate others they do nothing to stop the violent Jihadists.
 
Nine_Two and Staffsgt7
I totally agree that many muslims like to paint practices as polytheism (shirk), or immoral. and totally agree that Islam has many, many contradictions and fallacies (Had that discussion with Lion_of _Islam on the What is a Pagan thread). However this doesn’t mean that those statements are true abou Islam, it simply shows that those muslims are a bunch of bigoted fools who like to exaggerate and falsify aspects of Christian belief.

Many(not all) muslims are so totally blind to anything outside of Islam that they perpetuate a complex self superiority complex which sidelines any dissent or questioning on islamic teaching or practices (sort of like some things i’ve heard about the veneration of Sufi saints). I agree that the Jihadists are definitely correct within their reading of the Quran, fortunately multiple readings abound in any text as any textual analysist will tell you (perhaps thats why not all muslims are out to kill us)

I am no supporter of Islam and I definitely do not support some of the things in Islamic scriptures But that doesn;t mean we, staffsgt7 and mossacked im aiming this at, as christians should fall to the level of the fundamentalist muslims and start painting all muslims with the same brush as bomb toting, terrorists. Jesus said to love our enemies, and that means approaching them with civility and kindness, and understanding their failings so that we, in christian charity can show them, if they should happen to listen, the path to salvation. It does not mean falling to their level.
 
Jehoshua said:
Mosacked

And Catholics and Orthodox both visit the tombs of saints in order to acknowledge them as the paragons of virtue they are. Im not saying Muhammad is a paragon of virtue but the muslims see him that way.

As to the black rock i have said its a disgusting piece of paganism in the heart of a monotheistic religion, but id assumed they see it in the way relics of saints, places such as the spring at lourdes and other such things are seen by non-protestant (the majority) christianity. They see it as a holy artifact. I think its a piece of paganism Muhammad allowed in to keep the people happy, but such is life.
Staffsgt7

Firstly I thank you for responding in a civil way

Secondly, I have read the Quran and i can agree with you when you say that it is, in many places a rather disturbing book. But i can find no evidence that they worship a rock or Muhammad. I do know they try to touch the rock when their circambulating the Ka’aba which serves only as a focal point of prayer, like the temple mount in Judaism. Im not aware of actual worship of said rock or Muhammad, and thats after much research.

Your comments appear to me in the same light as protestant comments about Catholics worshipping Mary come across. I know your not antagonistic towards me personally, but you surely understand how I with much research on Islam, and experience with protestants misinterpreting veneration with worship i can honestly say Muhammad worship to my knowledge doesn;t exist within Islam.

The site you referenced i have looked at and can determine only that it is a site designed to be highly critical of Islam, in many cases legitimately, but on others it oversteps the bounds of criticism into paranoia and scaremongering. I’d suggest using multiple sources when researching Islam as by using this site only your positioning yourself to fall into one view without understanding the others. Sort of like textual analysis.

And i have to say i agree with you when you say many muslims have a self superiority complex about themselves and criticise others while ignoring their own vast failings.
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I got the part about the black rock from faithfreedom.org and have done some searches and found this from a former Muslim. Here is a video from a guy that I listen to all the time. He has many videos on different things in Islam.

I also heard it from a series of videos that Walid Shoebat gave. I can’t remember which one had the part of the black rock and there are quite a number of videos in this series. I like listening to Walid since he was a former PLO Muslim trained to be a martyr.

I am not paranoid about Islam. I think it is a dangerous ideology that is more political than religious no matter how much they want to tell me differently. I take a lot from former Muslims. Most of them converted to Christianity some didn’t. Walid is not a Catholic and I don’t know what sect of Christian he is. Some of the ones I listen to and read from are Walid Shoebat, Nonie Darwish, the Caner brothers, Ali Sina, Walid Phares to name a few. If one wants a good glimpse into Islam and not be told a bunch of lies then listen to former Muslims.

As for painting all Muslim the same, of course I do not. But how do you trust an ideology that tells them to lie to us? that says that if they do not want to be violent they can still wage Jihad by lying to us, and supporting the Jihadists with ‘their wealth’? I got their Sharia laws and gave the number that says that part of it is required to go to the ones waging war in Allah’s Cause.

Here is the difference between Muslims protesting against the West, against the cartoons, and most notably keep watching to see how they get excited over protesting against their violent Jihadists.
 
By no stretch of the imagination do i trust Islam. Just thought id put that out of the way
Secondly I would not take all that you hear about Islam from ex-muslims seriously. I can say that becasue many ex-catholics exxagerate, or quite frankly lie and distort catholic teaching for one reason or another when giving their testimony about the Catholic Church.

In gathering evidence you should take in multiple sources from multiple viewpoints. Personally I concluded my opinion based on various studies on the psychological nature of being a muslim, and on various theologians analytical responses on muslim theology and practices. I forget which ones exactly since I did my research years ago . I’ve also looked up the practices that take place in the Hajj, in regards to veneration of Muhammads relics and on the practices around sufi “saints”. I’ve also wen;t to sites such as the one where you got your info on the black rock, and to muslim sites and contacts in regards to their faith to get multiple viewpoints.

If you were doing an assignment for university and used only this for evidence you would get a low mark for research. Although what you say is in many ways true, Islam does have very questionable aspects. You are only looking at Islam through one facet, of many facets. Before commenting on Islam you hould look at all the evidence, particularly that from acknowledge experts and reliable factual sources. That way you have an idea on all the views and can make an informed opinion.

I do agree though that many muslims are sadly misinformed, and that extremism is much more prevalent in Islam then in any other religion. Many of its teachings i also disagree with strongly. However thats not to say we should start calling them muhammad worshippers and bigots, and fall to their level.
I say this because i have experience with people doing the same errors in research about catholicism (or not researching at all) and then making erroneous comments. Im therefore “defending” Islam to a point to get it across that bigotted ill-informed comments on Islam are no way to act as a christian and definitely won;t help in bringing the message of Christ to the said muslims.

I apologise for the long post.😉
 
Jehoshua said:
By no stretch of the imagination do i trust Islam. Just thought id put that out of the way
Secondly I would not take all that you hear about Islam from ex-muslims seriously. I can say that becasue many ex-catholics exxagerate, or quite frankly lie and distort catholic teaching for one reason or another when giving their testimony about the Catholic Church.

In gathering evidence you should take in multiple sources from multiple viewpoints. Personally I concluded my opinion based on various studies on the psychological nature of being a muslim, and on various theologians analytical responses on muslim theology and practices. I forget which ones exactly since I did my research years ago . I’ve also looked up the practices that take place in the Hajj, in regards to veneration of Muhammads relics and on the practices around sufi “saints”. I’ve also wen;t to sites such as the one where you got your info on the black rock, and to muslim sites and contacts in regards to their faith to get multiple viewpoints.

If you were doing an assignment for university and used only this for evidence you would get a low mark for research. Although what you say is in many ways true, Islam does have very questionable aspects. You are only looking at Islam through one facet, of many facets. Before commenting on Islam you hould look at all the evidence, particularly that from acknowledge experts and reliable factual sources. That way you have an idea on all the views and can make an informed opinion.
I say this because i have experience with people doing the same errors in research about catholicism (or not researching at all) and then making erroneous comments. Im therefore “defending” Islam to a point to get it across that bigotted ill-informed comments on Islam are no way to act as a christian and definitely won;t help in bringing the message of Christ to the said muslims.

I apologise for the long post.😉
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Sorry but I have to disagree with you. I take in many sources: books, internet articles, former Muslims, the behavior of Muslims, Muslims that I have to deal with on a daily basis, and I study unclassified docs and investigative articles about the Muslim Brotherhood and all of its organizations here and abroad. I go to seminars and presentations by many from the left, middle and right about Islam, Israel and politics. I reference their Sharia laws and know quite a bit of their long history of Jihad, slavery and subjugation of peoples.

Just because I don’t agree with you on something you try to discredit me. I think that maybe you are wrong in your analysis and you can take your University that probably has an MSA/MSU organization in it with Muslims affiliated with it and the Muslim Brotherhood who tell outright lies about Islam and its history and stuff it in a trash can. We have currently gone a few rounds with politicians about what they have allowed in our schools and it isn’t over yet. Many allow the MSA/MSU to carry on with its growing antismitism and in some instances outright attacks against Jews. They have allowed students to be unruly with guest speakers just because they bring out things like abuse of women in Islam and other things. Here is a pretty recent display of poor behavior on a campus, USC.

The MSA/MSU is just one organization that is a front for the Muslim Brotherhood. It is their recruiting arm in the USA. There are many more that I have mentioned in other posts on this thread. The Muslim Brotherhood follows Qutb’s guidance that he wrote down in “Milestones”.
Credo: “Allah is our objective. The prophet Muhammad is our leader, Quran our law. Jihad our Way, Dying for Allah is our highest hope.”
Qutb’s book Milestones, calls for Muslims to wage violent holy war until Islamic law governs the world.
Hamas, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Syria and Iran are the enforcement branch of the Qutb doctrine.
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There have been many Universities that have poor track records of what they are teaching in regards to Islam. Some are even accepting Wahabbi Saudi money (wahabbis - another group who have aligned themselves with the Muslim Brotherhood).

You can make parallels to Catholicism all you want. It rings of how Muslims use Christianity as one of their excuses for the violence in Islam. Because you disagree with me you now trying to imply I am bigoted. Can you discuss anything without name calling? I am not a Christian so I don’t care if they convert to Christianity or not. They are not here to convert, they are here to do da’wa which includes taqiyya and kithman.

One last thing, I am with Act for America and I give presentations on what some call Political islam. I have been studying Islam and am surrounded by many people who have studied it for over 10 years now. I have met Brigitte Gabriel, Walid Shoebat and Daniel Pipes in person at their presentations. I go up and shake their hands and try to engage them for a little bit. Brigitte Gabriel lived through Muslims making a mess out of her country and she knows how the some in her country enabled the Muslims and helped them. She knows how the world did next to nothing and how the UN came in, sat and watched Muslims bring weapons in and rain bombs into Israel and sniped at the Lebonese Christians. Not too many of those masses who claimed to be peaceful helped any of the Christians out.
 
I am simply saying that i think that your research is flawed by being looked at through a subjective view. That is my honest opinion, and for an honest dialogue honesty is in order. Considering your views on deception within Islam perhaps you’ll appreciate that

My reference to assignments in Uni, and academic standards was merely an example showing how subjective research would not be accepted there, and that a non-subjective approach is neccesary when approaching a subject. That is how it is done in academia where I live, and i assume elsewhere. If there is bigotry and bias in uni’s where you live then thats another topic. Thankfully i had no experience of such sectarian, biased behaviour when i was a student.

I said what i said because i honestly think that if you want to engage with muslims, you should to do so in an enlightened, intellectual manner, and in a civil way. Despite the fact that your likely to not recieve the same courtesy in return.

The muslim brotherhood, Wahhabis and such groups are extremist groups. Unfortunately their influence is growing but to take them as indicative of all the muslim Ummah is presumptuous. Unfortunately I agree with you in saying political extremist Islam is on the rise and is a reality, i agree that the wider muslim population by its own inaction is complicit with the extremists. However I do not believe that this fact should lead us into falling so low as to descend into painting all of Islam as a terrorist religion. I am not a friend of Islam and strongly disagree with It. But that does not mean i start engaging muslims like mossacked and occasionly you have done. Honest, sincere, polite and civil dialogue with muslims is much more likely to help then throwing accusations and acting irate. That does not make me a friend, it just means i act with dignity when i engage with muslims and attempt to discuss islamic ideology with them.
By the way i said that bigoted ill informed comments are no way to engage Islam and my reference to the way people engage the Catholic Churchwas to showcase an example of how abiased view is unhelpful and to show where im coming from with my views. It is also to point out how its unhelpful in engaging in dialogue with muslims.

I did not intend for my comments to come across as saying you were bigotted. Ill informed yes, bigotted no. That i did not intend and i apologise for that.
 
I mentioned David Horowitz and the poor behavior on campus. He wrote a letter back to them in response.

This isn’t the only University that allows the Muslims and the left wing liberals to slander others while thinking they are the only ones entitled to free speech which is more in line with hate speech. Irvine and Berkeley to name a few more have had their troubles too.

Sorry if I misinterpreted the remarks. In some respects I am enjoying the discussion. It is late here in California - or early and I haven’t been to bed yet so good night.
 
It is totally appalling that they, an academic institution are allowing politics to enter into classes into such a clearly biased way. I think those univerities need to return to their onus of teaching academically and apolitically.

I am also enjoying this discussion in some respects. Its much more civil then some of the discussions i’ve had recently with a certain muslim for instance. Have a good nights sleep. (as much as you can anyway) Peace.
 
staffsgt7 said:
Why is it that Christians think that turning the other cheek means to lay down and die which means that their children would have to take up the burden of subjugation or slavery under Islam, or do the fighting? …
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Because there is a lot of misunderstanding among Christians about their faith, particularly Catholics.
Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.
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All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
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However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”
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CCC, 2308, 10

Note: “…all peace efforts…” has also been widely misunderstood. Obviously, this could not include such efforts as launching a space mission because peaceniks think the alternative to a particular conflict is written on the underside of one of the rocks on Pluto, so any “peace effort” has to have a reasonable chance of success.
 
planten said:
Whether Islam is a threat to christianity or not, I see some serious threat to Islam by the local Muslims in Malaya. ( unless there is some abuse of the name of Allah by the christians in Malaya). Even then, that is not the way to tackle the problem.
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“The answer to bad speech is not the restriction of speech, but more speech,” because “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.”
 
staffsgt7 said:
I mentioned David Horowitz and the poor behavior on campus. He wrote a letter back to them in response.

This isn’t the only University that allows the Muslims and the left wing liberals to slander others while thinking they are the only ones entitled to free speech which is more in line with hate speech. Irvine and Berkeley to name a few more have had their troubles too.

Sorry if I misinterpreted the remarks. In some respects I am enjoying the discussion. It is late here in California - or early and I haven’t been to bed yet so good night.
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The sources you have mentioned are great ones. Briggitte has spoken in our town and the Caner brothers are great too. Also…he is not a former Moslem, but have you heard of Michael Savage? My friend listens all the time and wants me to…but I prefer Glenn Beck when it comes to radio. A good book is “The Pride and the Rage”, by Orrianna Fallacci about Islam.
 
Jehoshua said:
I am simply saying that i think that your research is flawed by being looked at through a subjective view. That is my honest opinion, and for an honest dialogue honesty is in order. Considering your views on deception within Islam perhaps you’ll appreciate that

The muslim brotherhood, Wahhabis and such groups are extremist groups. Unfortunately their influence is growing but to take them as indicative of all the muslim Ummah is presumptuous. Unfortunately I agree with you in saying political extremist Islam is on the rise and is a reality, i agree​

By the way i said that bigoted ill informed comments are no way to engage Islam and my reference to the way people engage the Catholic Churchwas to showcase an example of how abiased view is unhelpful and to show where im coming from with my views. It is also to point out how its unhelpful in engaging in dialogue with muslims.

I did not intend for my comments to come across as saying you were bigotted. Ill informed yes, bigotted no. That i did not intend and i apologise for that.
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One more thing about this besides proving that academics and Universities are not teaching Islam or its history accurately is that Islam is extremism. Studying its laws and its texts tell us that Mohammed changed from thinking that he could convert people with being nice and being tolerant to realizing it works better with terror and killing. Take the loot and enslaving people worked. Allowing his followers to deceive others if it advanced Islam was no problem for Mohammed. The followers of Mohammed do this today and not even the masses of moderates are willing to cough up the truth about this.

You say the MB is extremist and then don’t even account for all the Muslim organizations in America are associated with, or made a pact with, the MB. That includes the MSA/MSU in our colleges, MPAC in the media, etc. No matter how nice one is, how intellectual one is - if you say something that implys Islam has problems - the Muslims will start their bashing, excuses, changing the subject to why Christianity is bad, etc.

We can take Israel and the situation they face. They have made more cease fire agreements and treaties that I can keep track of and every one of them were broken by the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians. Israel gave up land to show that it wasn’t about land and the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians broke the cease fire again. Too often they start their junk within 24 hours of the treaty or cease fire they agree to. And no one is holding the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians accountable and instead we have to keep listening to their dreary cries of victimhood and how Israel is the bad guy. We can provide proof that Hamas, and Fatah before them, and the PLO have killed more Muslims than anyone in that area. We can provide proof that the Muslims hide behind children, train children to become suicide bombers and slit throats. And we can provide proof that the children are being taught pure hatred of others just because they are a Jew or a Christian.

And you say I am ill-informed because you don’t want to listen to the ones who escaped that situation. Those who did convert - you question and imply they are the liars and you believe the ones who are still thinking sanctioned deception is holy. Why do you convert people if you don’t believe them?

Their Sharia laws tell us they are not to keep any treaty with any non-Muslim. They are to break treaties as soon as they are able to and no treaty is to last longer than 10 years. How come none of the ones who say they are peaceful cough up this information? It took me a few years to figure this out by just reading their texts and once I bought their Sharia laws it was as plain as day. (o9) They can last no longer than 10 years and the end result is that the non-Muslims convert or accept subjugation. Since Israel has done neither and the Muslims are not weak, they continue to break them.

Islam is extreme. It is intolerant, deceptive, an ideology bent on world domination. There is no Islam without politics when one realizes that Jihad is the way of Islam since it is required of all Muslims to wage with the end goal being the non-Muslims subjugation or deaths if they chose to reject Islam as their personal ideology.

Mohammed knew the Koran was one that would cause the non-Musilms to be upset and probably not want any Muslims to settle in their lands. He told them not to take it with them.

Muslim: C24B20N4609 “The Messenger said: ‘Do not take the Qur’an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it would fall into the hands of the enemy.’ Ayyub, one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters, said: ‘The enemy may seize it and may quarrel with you over it.’”

Mohammed looked at non-Muslims as enemies. That isn’t very nice, or religious of him to do, is it?

You say I am ill-informed. Well I beg to differ just because we differ and have different levels of understanding of Islam. When the masses of Muslims start doing something to clean up their ideology and stop their violent Jihadists from killing and terrorizing peoples then I will believe that they are truly peaceful.

I have even proven that the masses are directly supporting the violence in Islam with their riots and deception. If you need to see more links just let me know. I don’t keep posting them over and over again because some will probably be bored with them.
 
jewells17 said:
The sources you have mentioned are great ones. Briggitte has spoken in our town and the Caner brothers are great too. Also…he is not a former Moslem, but have you heard of Michael Savage? My friend listens all the time and wants me to…but I prefer Glenn Beck when it comes to radio. A good book is “The Pride and the Rage”, by Orrianna Fallacci about Islam.
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I have listened to both but I don’t get him clearly at my home radio anymore. When I used to commute I got him much clearer when I neared Oakland and SF. I listen to Beck on TV but not all the time. I don’t turn on the TV until the late afternoon most days. Sometimes if I hear that there will be a good segment on (my Act group people usually let me know) I will tape him. He started in on ACORN and I don’t need all the details to know that they should be taken out of tax exempt status and our tax money shouldn’t go to them anymore. If they change their name, then the same applies because they are crooks.

I like how he uncovers a lot of corruption. Obama doesn’t like him or Fox news. When people like him, or Muslims, or liberal left wingers, don’t like something that tells me maybe I should listen to who they hate! 😃 They like to bash people that have different opinions and do what people like Hitler and Stalin do and that is to try to denigrate them to make them irrelevent.
 
staffsgt7 said:
One more thing about this besides proving that academics and Universities are not teaching Islam or its history accurately is that Islam is extremism. Studying its laws and its texts tell us that Mohammed changed from thinking that he could convert people with being nice and being tolerant to realizing it works better with terror and killing. Take the loot and enslaving people worked. Allowing his followers to deceive others if it advanced Islam was no problem for Mohammed. The followers of Mohammed do this today and not even the masses of moderates are willing to cough up the truth about this.

You say the MB is extremist and then don’t even account for all the Muslim organizations in America are associated with, or made a pact with, the MB. That includes the MSA/MSU in our colleges, MPAC in the media, etc. No matter how nice one is, how intellectual one is - if you say something that implys Islam has problems - the Muslims will start their bashing, excuses, changing the subject to why Christianity is bad, etc.

We can take Israel and the situation they face. They have made more cease fire agreements and treaties that I can keep track of and every one of them were broken by the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians. Israel gave up land to show that it wasn’t about land and the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians broke the cease fire again. Too often they start their junk within 24 hours of the treaty or cease fire they agree to. And no one is holding the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians accountable and instead we have to keep listening to their dreary cries of victimhood and how Israel is the bad guy. We can provide proof that Hamas, and Fatah before them, and the PLO have killed more Muslims than anyone in that area. We can provide proof that the Muslims hide behind children, train children to become suicide bombers and slit throats. And we can provide proof that the children are being taught pure hatred of others just because they are a Jew or a Christian.

And you say I am ill-informed because you don’t want to listen to the ones who escaped that situation. Those who did convert - you question and imply they are the liars and you believe the ones who are still thinking sanctioned deception is holy. Why do you convert people if you don’t believe them?

Their Sharia laws tell us they are not to keep any treaty with any non-Muslim. They are to break treaties as soon as they are able to and no treaty is to last longer than 10 years. How come none of the ones who say they are peaceful cough up this information? It took me a few years to figure this out by just reading their texts and once I bought their Sharia laws it was as plain as day. (o9) They can last no longer than 10 years and the end result is that the non-Muslims convert or accept subjugation. Since Israel has done neither and the Muslims are not weak, they continue to break them.

Islam is extreme. It is intolerant, deceptive, an ideology bent on world domination. There is no Islam without politics when one realizes that Jihad is the way of Islam since it is required of all Muslims to wage with the end goal being the non-Muslims subjugation or deaths if they chose to reject Islam as their personal ideology.

Mohammed knew the Koran was one that would cause the non-Musilms to be upset and probably not want any Muslims to settle in their lands. He told them not to take it with them.

Muslim: C24B20N4609 “The Messenger said: ‘Do not take the Qur’an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it would fall into the hands of the enemy.’ Ayyub, one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters, said: ‘The enemy may seize it and may quarrel with you over it.’”

Mohammed looked at non-Muslims as enemies. That isn’t very nice, or religious of him to do, is it?

You say I am ill-informed. Well I beg to differ just because we differ and have different levels of understanding of Islam. When the masses of Muslims start doing something to clean up their ideology and stop their violent Jihadists from killing and terrorizing peoples then I will believe that they are truly peaceful.

I have even proven that the masses are directly supporting the violence in Islam with their riots and deception. If you need to see more links just let me know. I don’t keep posting them over and over again because some will probably be bored with them.
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LOL…you may be one of the MOST INFORMED about islam on this forum!
 
A lot of misinformation (or disinformation) is purposely being spread against islam in this thread. It is being told that Muslims are guilty of Shirk, by kissing the black stone at Ka’abah. Islam in Shirk is no threat to Christianity. So the Islam bashing is off topic too.

I would like to know, since when is kissing some one (or some thing) a case of Shirk?. the christians are kissing their wives. Are they committing Shirk?? The case of Shirk is associating any one with the God almighty which we see clearly amongst the Catholics.

The Jews and the Muslims keep far away from Shirk. Associating any one with God is strictly forbidden. But christians have got many Lords. They give much importance to the apostles as if they were Gods. Not only is Jesus their great Lord and God but his followers too. They have entered their words (books) into the bible. That is Shirk.

Now about the name of Muhammad in the Kalimah. It is necessary. When one says “There is no god but Allah.” any one can ask “who told that?” Then it is necessary to tell the name of the prophet. That “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.”

The second part of the Kalimah is as important as the first part. It means that Muhammad is a mere messenger of Allah and he has brought the message “There is no god but Allah.”. The name of Muhammad is essential in telling the source of the imporatnt message.

It was same with the christians too.Jesus told them to preach in the name of the Father and the son (and the holy ghost) in Mathew. Just look at the name of the Father (God) and the son (The messenger of God, Jesus).It is exactly the same thing as in Islam. The two (God and messenger ) are there in the bible.

Jesus told the followers the right thing, to preach in the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost. i.e. God and the messenger and the holy spirit. But the christians made the son and the holy ghost into gods. Is that not Shirk?? It is a great shirk and a great sin.

I had to write all that to make it clear to you that your accusations of Islam are not correct.You yourself are actually involved in Shirk. If there is only One God then why do you talk about three (gods). Then you have to run back to One god too. Trinity is a Shirk and Shirk will never be forgiven by God.

I know you will get very upset. But you should also not write the bad things about islam too. We Muslims have the right to clear up all your accusations and to point your defects to you.

The name of Muhammad in the Kalimah ( There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is a messenger of Allah) is very important. It says that Muhammad is not god. he is a messenger of God. If it was not there, the Muslims may have made Muhammad a god like did the christians. It stops us from making a god of Muhammad. It stops us from Shirk (paganism).
 
planten said:
I would like to know, since when is kissing some one (or some thing) a case of Shirk. The case of Shirk is associating any one with the God almighty which we see clearly amongst the Catholics.
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Now that is pure BULL! Catholics worship noone but GOD. The Father…Son and Holy Spirit! We have a devotion to the saints! That is different than worship.
planten said:
The Jews and the Muslims keep far away from Shirk. Associating any one with God is strictly forbidden. But christians have got many Lords. They give much importance to the apostles as if they were Gods. Not only is Jesus their great Lord and God but his followers too. They have entered their words into the bible. That is Shirk.
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You are lost. Catholics and Christians in general do not have many gods. islam has Satan disguised as an angel. That is it!!!

I will not give your ignorance the benefit of another post on my part. And…it appears I am joining an increasing number of poster that will consider you out to lunch.
 
planten said:
…When one says “There is no god but Allah.” any one can ask “who told that?” Then it is necessary to tell the name of the prophet. That “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.”
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We must then ask, “Who says Muhammad is the messenger of Allah?” and then who told it to that person and keep asking all the way back in time until we finally must ask who was the first person to say, “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah” ?

So, who was it? Answer: Who but Mohammed?
 
sedonaman said:
You should have been around Jan 2, '09 when he posted,
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What are you talking about, sedonaman. That’s clearly a post made up by Catholics to tarnish planten’s name. Why, you even had someone sign on with the exact same name as planten and had him post… 😉
 
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