Is Islam a threat to Christianity around the globe?

[sedonaman]

Our society was developed on the basis of secularization; that’s what’s great about it. …

Would you please trace the evolution of how secularization thought arrived at the conclusion that “All men are created equal, and they are endowed by their creator …” ? Where did this secular “creator” come from and what is his nature?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Good point and good observation. I wonder if they disliked Our Lord, or feared him?

Probably the same situation as Jezebel versus Elijah: it was a combination of both.

 

[bridgeforsale]

No it isn’t. We have been led to beleive it is, but in reallity it is failing. it has been failing for a long time and failing dismally and that is why Islam is on the rise. It is stepping into the moral void left by secularisation.

America is the result of secularization. After over a thousand years of inquisitions, horrific treatment of Jews, indigenous peoples, slaves, etc. the only single event that marked a beginning to the end of it all was the enlightenment.

I offer as proof the resume of virtually every single prominent founding father of the United States.

John Adams, he found among the lawyers “noble and gallant achievements” but among the clergy, the “pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces.”

Thomas Jefferson: perhaps the harshest critic of Christianity out of all of our founders. He referred to the revelation of St. John as “the ravings of a maniac.”

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.” -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.”–Thomas Jefferson

Christians: either Fools or Hypocrites! What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. Thomas Jefferson

Christianity: supports Rogue Dictators world wide! “To support roguery and error all over the earth." Thomas Jefferson, “Notes on the State of Virginia,” 1782;

“The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.” - Thomas Jefferson

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” John Adams

“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.” - John Adams

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” —Ben Franklin, Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1758

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect.” —James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton, etc. all these men were enlightenment thinkers, who were probably best described as agnostic (although most of them ultimately identified as deists and occasionally unitarians, I would argue deist was such an obscure designation it was really one of the earlier popular forms of agnosticism).

you are worrying about gnats on the elephant. Meanwhile the elephant is being infested with worms that eat away at its health. Leave the gnats. While they are in the backwoods they do little harm to the body politic. The body politic is being eaten away by worms because it is not eating the right food. The body politic is being eaten away because it is eating the food of secularism, which has no nutrients.

Religion doesn’t represent the best of us; it represents the worse in us. A few other quotes to chew on:

Ernest Hemmingway: All thinking men are atheists.

“Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.” - Voltaire

“God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it.” - Carl Sagan

Anyone who thinks the idea of individual liberty sprang from the Christian religion (or any other religion for that matter) simply has no true grasp of history; and it’s really a narrow minded and partisan approach to understanding our intellectual development in western society. The problem isn’t there aren’t enough religious people; the problem is there’s too many stupid people. Atheists have among the lowest prison incarceration rates, and among the lowest divorce rates (although Catholics and Lutherans also have comparatively low divorce rates).

In fact if you examine every social statistic, you’ll only find one common factor intrinsic in every group who does well in any given category. That factor is academic achievement.

 

[spn82756]

America is the result of secularization. After over a thousand years of inquisitions, horrific treatment of Jews, indigenous peoples, slaves, etc. the only single event that marked a beginning to the end of it all was the enlightenment.

I offer as proof the resume of virtually every single prominent founding father of the United States.

John Adams, he found among the lawyers “noble and gallant achievements” but among the clergy, the “pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces.”

Thomas Jefferson: perhaps the harshest critic of Christianity out of all of our founders. He referred to the revelation of St. John as “the ravings of a maniac.”

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.” -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.”–Thomas Jefferson

Christians: either Fools or Hypocrites! What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. Thomas Jefferson

Christianity: supports Rogue Dictators world wide! “To support roguery and error all over the earth." Thomas Jefferson, “Notes on the State of Virginia,” 1782;

“The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.” - Thomas Jefferson

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” John Adams

“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.” - John Adams

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” —Ben Franklin, Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1758

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect.” —James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton, etc. all these men were enlightenment thinkers, who were probably best described as agnostic (although most of them ultimately identified as deists and occasionally unitarians, I would argue deist was such an obscure designation it was really one of the earlier popular forms of agnosticism).

Religion doesn’t represent the best of us; it represents the worse in us. A few other quotes to chew on:

Ernest Hemmingway: All thinking men are atheists.

“Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.” - Voltaire

“God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it.” - Carl Sagan

Anyone who thinks the idea of individual liberty sprang from the Christian religion (or any other religion for that matter) simply has no true grasp of history; and it’s really a narrow minded and partisan approach to understanding our intellectual development in western society. The problem isn’t there aren’t enough religious people; the problem is there’s too many stupid people. Atheists have among the lowest prison incarceration rates, and among the lowest divorce rates (although Catholics and Lutherans also have comparatively low divorce rates).

In fact if you examine every social statistic, you’ll only find one common factor intrinsic in every group who does well in any given category. That factor is academic achievement.

Quite an anti-Christian post.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Would you please trace the evolution of how secularization thought arrived at the conclusion that “All men are created equal, and they are endowed by their creator …” ? Where did this secular “creator” come from and what is his nature?

The idea of individual liberty comes from a very old idea of natural rights, which began with the Stoics, who believed that no one was a slave by nature; slavery was an external condition imposed on the internal freedom of the soul (sui juris). Seneca the Younger wrote:

“ It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man’s whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined -De beneficiis, III, 20

Ultimately this stoic idea became revived, beginning with Thomas Hobbes (who some say was an atheist, but given his writings we can at least say his views were very similar to Jefferson’s views, though of course Hobbes lived much earlier). Notwithstanding the obvious reference to a creator made by Jefferson, as I’ve illustrated above Jefferson was hardly an observant Christian. He didn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ; or in any of the fantastic miracle claims associated with Christ, including the resurrection (although he held the virtue of Jesus in very high regard). Jefferson occasionally attended Unitarian services, but identified as a deist.

Why did he (or Mazzei) stick that sentence in there? The document was revised several times before it was adopted (perhaps you can go through the history of the revisions, I think there’s pretty detailed information out there). Here’s how the Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 put it (written mostly by John Adams):

Article I. All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

Of course the ideas of John Locke, Francis Bacon, David Hume, Adam Smith, Voltaire, etc. were central to our founding. These men (some theists others not) were all empiricists who adhered to a materialist philosophy. They drew, ironically, from the same well others like Aquinas did, Aristotle (and his realism), but some reached different conclusions, while others were less interested in metaphysics (and more interested in practical political philosophy).

Anyway, I gotta get to work.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Quite an anti-Christian post.

Why thank you

 

[spn82756]

Why thank you

Well…that’s quite sad. I understand that you don’t believe…but sarcasm isn’t the way to get respect.

 

[schaick]

**Is Islam a threat to Christianity around the globe? ** Not just Christians.

abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=177079

Iraq - Iranian Shia Buses attacked in Baqdad

BAGHDAD - Gunmen in a speeding car opened fire on Wednesday in the Iraqi capital at two buses carrying Iranian pilgrims, killing an Iranian woman and an Iraqi driver, the Baghdad security command said.

Wounded were transported to Al Hakim Hospital in Al Sheala region for treatment, the source added. Although an Iranian Authority said wounded will transport to Iran if needed.

The attack on a main road in Al Adel District, northwestern Baghdad Baghdad also wounded five Iranian pilgrims, according to a report. Pilgrims were traveling from holy city of Najaf to holy city of Kazemayn.

The attack came after two bloody days in Baghdad in which more than 50 people were killed by suicide car bombs targeting main hotels and an interior ministry office.

The assaults broke a seven-week lull in major attacks on the capital as Iraq heads into a pivotal general election on March 7 that could set it more firmly on the path to stability or potentially widen its sectarian and ethnic divisions.

The Imam Moussa al-Kadhim shrine, an important Shi’ite Muslim site, lies in the neighborhood where Wednesday’s attack occurred.

The area was cordoned off after the attack, while police and Iraqi soldiers searched for the perpetrators

The liberal left/secularists are going to be in the shock of a lifetime when the Muslims that they praised and bowed to out of political correctness smit their necks.

 

[sedonaman]

The idea of individual liberty comes from a very old idea of natural rights, which began with the Stoics, …

That’s all very interesting, but the Declaration says “Creator” not “born”, and it was, “The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, …” and signed by a bunch of founding fathers, Adams and Jefferson among them. The fact that Jefferson didn’t agree with all Christian beliefs is irrelevant; the fact is he appealed to a “Creator” when he wrote it is. So, your reply doesn’t answer my questions. Where did this secular “Creator” come from and what is his nature?

 

[KathleenGee]

bridgeforsale,

The more I read your comments about the Catholic church, the more I wonder about your educational background regarding different religions…

 

[bridgeforsale]

That’s all very interesting, but the Declaration says “Creator” not “born”, and it was, “The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, …” and signed by a bunch of founding fathers, Adams and Jefferson among them. The fact that Jefferson didn’t agree with all Christian beliefs is irrelevant; the fact is he appealed to a “Creator” when he wrote it is. So, your reply doesn’t answer my questions. Where did this secular “Creator” come from and what is his nature?

Jefferson was a deist, he wasn’t an atheist; nor were any other founders (to my knowledge). But they founded this country on a secular rationalist foundation. The wall of separation between church and state was an immensely important feature of our founding documents. Moreover, there’s a more important thing to consider; which is the type of people they were. Jefferson’s favorite people were Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, and John Locke. Jefferson himself was obviously extremely well educated and accomplished. He held rational thought and human liberty in the highest esteem. But he did find credence in cosmological arguments (as most deists did back then). However, if he were around today it’s very likely he would be agnostic (or perhaps, I dare say, an atheist), since cosmological arguments don’t find much favor anymore among academics (they’ve pretty much been thoroughly debunked).

David Hume (the pillar of the Scottish enlightenment) once said “I am an American in my principals” … and when you actually study and understand these thinkers, you’ll get a flavor for how they thought; and you’ll understand they viewed organized religion as mostly a bad thing.

 

[KathleenGee]

I hope our Constitution is restored. I love our country and I do think it right we have separation of church and state, not promoting one religion but allowing freedom of religious expression that is being banned towards Christians, aka Christmas, public prayers and traditional benedictions, and so on.

I heard on a radio program it was anti-Catholic Christians who worked for the clause of this separation. I read another allegation that one of the framers witnessed an Episcopalian’s faith being insulted by an Anabaptist followed by an ensuing fist fight.

I was sharing previously that I got hold of a National Geographic, 2006. It had a section on the 20th century genocide, 71 million slaughtered mostly under the banner of the secular state.

I consider that against the Catholic Church who is the source of our modern American legal framework, higher education with their universities for the common people in Europe, the source of hospitals and hospice to the effectiveness of Catholic schools in American inner cities, as well as the best hospitals in our country, and much higher academic achievement and critical thinking in our Catholic educational systems. I also note the high number of artists and musicians, scholars, scientists such as Mendel vs. Darwin, that has contributed so much to a cultured and humane society.

I also find it disturbing how Catholic France, Spain, and Italy were at war with each other, not recognizing the Eucharist that should have divided them.

Life is very complex and we usually have things backfire on us when we stereotype or are drawing on very biased information. But alas, if people are not open to the truth, no matter what you say does no good…at least at the present time…grace works through nature.

 

[bridgeforsale]

I hope our Constitution is restored. I love our country and I do think it right we have separation of church and state, not promoting one religion but allowing freedom of religious expression that is being banned towards Christians, aka Christmas, public prayers and traditional benedictions, and so on.

There was a time in this country where Catholics were openly hated (even former Presidents made anti-Catholic statements, and statements against the ethnicities who tend to be overwhelmingly Catholic). So if you really think there’s a history of open Catholic expression, where every public square had a giant manger scene each Christmas, you’re deluding yourself.

I heard on a radio program it was anti-Catholic Christians who worked for the clause of this separation.

I just can’t believe people are honestly this ill informed (and get their historical information from radio broadcasts). There weren’t that many Catholics in this country (outside of Maryland) during the colonial era. Indeed, Baptists faced considerable discrimination themselves (particularly in the north from other protestant groups like the congregationalists). Separation of church and state was one of the hallmark ideas of John Locke; and many of the other enlightenment thinkers. That’s where the idea came from. Stop deluding yourself & stop exaggerating the role of the Catholic Church in western development.

I consider that against the Catholic Church who is the source of our modern American legal framework, higher education with their universities for the common people in Europe, the source of hospitals and hospice to the effectiveness of Catholic schools in American inner cities, as well as the best hospitals in our country, and much higher academic achievement and critical thinking in our Catholic educational systems. I also note the high number of artists and musicians, scholars, scientists such as Mendel vs. Darwin, that has contributed so much to a cultured and humane society.

I also find it disturbing how Catholic France, Spain, and Italy were at war with each other, not recognizing the Eucharist that should have divided them.

Life is very complex and we usually have things backfire on us when we stereotype or are drawing on very biased information. But alas, if people are not open to the truth, no matter what you say does no good…at least at the present time…grace works through nature.

I can’t even read anymore of this nonsense (it hurts my brain too much to read such stupidity).

 

[KathleenGee]

sorry I am so stupid for you.

I won’t disturb you anymore…promise.

 

[spn82756]

sorry I am so stupid for you.

I won’t disturb you anymore…promise.

What he said was not nice. But he has also made some rather rude statements before. I wouldn’t be overly concerned.

 

[KathleenGee]

I just want to ease their burden…

 

[staffsgt7]

sorry I am so stupid for you.

I won’t disturb you anymore…promise.

Usually when people say or write stuff like that it just reflects on them. They cannot show an argument to counter it so they start bashing.

I learned awhile back there is an actual name for it. It is called projection. They are projecting themselves onto you or whomever they are discussing with.

And it always reminds me of the children’s tune that goes ‘sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me’. We try to tell kids not to call others names and if they encounter it to just sing that but our schools are not teaching kids how to discuss anymore, only how to appease. Appeasing sounds like we wouldn’t encounter name calling but the opposite happens because anyone who disagrees is bashed or denigrated in some way. It makes the pressure to conform very intense especially for children.

Look what Islam does? It bashes others (unbelievers) by calling them apes, pigs, kufir, mushrikin, urine, etc. It makes them easier to be looked upon as something less and then easier to treat badly or even torture, enslave, kill. It is sort of similar to what Hitler did to the Jews. He even marked them like Dhimmi were marked and by them having to wear different things than their Muslim masters.

 

[staffsgt7]

It certainly is a threat to the Jews! A DVD that I got from Act for America, its title is ‘First comes Saturday, then comes Sunday’. This is an indication of the intent, first the Jews then the Christians. What I read about they are not waiting for Saturday to be done with and they attack Christians all the time. They attack Hindus, Buddhists, too. Not too many of the peaceful ones are even attempting to change the laws and the Koran that says it is ok so this is what Islam is all about.

Jews are fleeing Sweden now.

University of Chicago, Hitler Lovefest at Muslim Protest against Jews

Muslim Groups Shut Down Free Speech at Ivy Leagues

Stop Incitement to Jewish Genocide at UC Irvine: Advertisement for Jew Hatred

 

[KathleenGee]

People definitely choose to hold on to the images they perceive…

 

[bridgeforsale]

Usually when people say or write stuff like that it just reflects on them. They cannot show an argument to counter it so they start bashing.

I learned awhile back there is an actual name for it. It is called projection. They are projecting themselves onto you or whomever they are discussing with.

And it always reminds me of the children’s tune that goes ‘sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me’.

Is that what you tell the kiddies

We try to tell kids not to call others names and if they encounter it to just sing that but our schools are not teaching kids how to discuss anymore, only how to appease. Appeasing sounds like we wouldn’t encounter name calling but the opposite happens because anyone who disagrees is bashed or denigrated in some way. It makes the pressure to conform very intense especially for children.

Awww … you’re such a grown up (gold star on your atheist report card)

Look what Islam does?

Oh wait … do I smell a chance to fling one at Islam

It bashes others (unbelievers) by calling them apes, pigs, kufir, mushrikin, urine, etc. It makes them easier to be looked upon as something less and then easier to treat badly or even torture, enslave, kill. It is sort of similar to what Hitler did to the Jews. He even marked them like Dhimmi were marked and by them having to wear different things than their Muslim masters.

Not another Hitler analogy … could you imagine if all the people accused of being like Hitler really were? There would be no people left (perhaps except for us white atheist guys )