Is it a big deal to convert to Coptic?

[murphy7patrick]

I live and work in the Middle East and my girlfriend insists that I have to convert to Coptic Christianity to marry her. Do I really have to?

More importantly, does it really matter if I do convert? What is the Church’s view on this?

I must add that I am quite impressed with how proud the Copts are of their faith. If we moved back to the UK and she became a Catholic, I’d be deeply worried that our children would inevitably become atheist, just like everyone else has back home…

 

[murphy7patrick]

Hey (name removed by moderator), no, she’s Coptic Orthodox.

 

[Bluegoat]

I am not sure what the status of the Cpotic Church is; if it is the same as the EO or not.
I believe the CC says they have valid Sacraments.

However, I am pretty sure that from her perspective she is telling the truth. The Copts do not believe the CC has valid Sacraments - there is no way she could get married in a Catholic church without being excommunicated from her own. And they may well also say that you have to convert.

 

[Bluegoat]

I know they are OO. What I am not sure of is if the CC considered them to be part of the Church in schism, like the EO, or in some other way. THey don’t usually say that the EO are heretical, but they may say that the OO are, is my thought.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Oriental Orthodox are true Churches although they are not in communion with neither Rome nor the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[CaptainPicard]

I live and work in the Middle East and my girlfriend insists that I have to convert to Coptic Christianity to marry her. Do I really have to?

More importantly, does it really matter if I do convert? What is the Church’s view on this?

I must add that I am quite impressed with how proud the Copts are of their faith. If we moved back to the UK and she became a Catholic, I’d be deeply worried that our children would inevitably become atheist, just like everyone else has back home…

To leave to become Coptic would be considered seriously sinful and basically be the abandonment of Christ’s true Church for something inferior. I’m sure the Copts would probably view her becoming Catholic in the same way.

I’d recommend studying up on some theology together and make a mutual journey to find out which Church is true. I’d especially emphasize learning about what the two Churches differ on (the role of the papacy, the nature of Christ, etc). Then I would make an informed decision about which Church has it right. This could take a good while. I highly recommend basing any decision on what is true, rather than what is convenient!

 

[Trebor135]

The Coptic Orthodox Church broke away from the Catholic Church after the Council of Chalcedon in 453, but in the twentieth century Catholic/Eastern Orthodox and Coptic theologians determined that this split in fact involved making a mountain out of a molehill. Ostensible disagreements over christology had caused a great deal of misunderstanding between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox on one side and Oriental Orthodox (a communion which includes Copts) for about a millennium and a half, and were behind the breaking away of the Coptic Church from the Catholic Church. Those theologians determined that the two sides had been expressing the same ideas in different language all along.

The Coptic Church is not christologically heretical, but it does not recognize the primacy of the Catholic Pope. It appears to be, and remains, in schism; if this is the case, conversion from Catholicism to Coptic Orthodoxy with full knowledge would appear to be a mortal sin according to the Catholic Church.

If you and your girlfriend are going to seriously consider marriage, you might think about holding the ceremony twice–once both in a Coptic and a Catholic church–so that it will be recognized as valid by Alexandria. Or you could ask for a dispensation from a Catholic bishop so you could validly marry in a Coptic church and avoid the expense and general hassle of holding two weddings.

If–the above notwithstanding–your girlfriend is adamant that you convert and that any children you may have be raised in her faith, it would appear that you have encountered an insurmountable obstacle. Only if you leave God out of the equation, of course. I would pray about your situation together, meet with Catholic and Coptic priests with her, and research Catholic and Coptic theology and history together–as a previous poster suggested. As you are I’m sure aware, it would be unwise to become Coptic simply for the sake of convenience: if your heart isn’t in it, things will fall apart sooner or later.

God bless,
T.

 

[searn77]

From what I understand it’s pretty much the same with OO or EO regarding marriage. They have to have it in one of their Orthodox churches for it to be valid. Although after the marriage, I’ve heard they’d allow you to have another ceremony (if you wanted) in the Catholic church. But in their eyes the first marriage in the OO church would be the valid one, and from what I understand the CC will allow for Catholics to get married in the EO or OO churches and it considers them valid.

 

[murphy7patrick]

It seems a bit harsh if it is a mortal sin to convert to Coptic Orthodox! As far as I can see, the CC, EO and OO are all just different branches of the original Christian Church. To be condemned to eternal hell just for worshipping Christ in a different part of the church he founded doesn’t feel very fair to me…

I do agree with the comment:

‘As to becoming atheist back in the UK I’d say that’s even overstating the apathy in the UK.Atheism takes some spirit to maintain as a position, total indifference is more the norm in the UK now’ ((name removed by moderator)).

But I would say, from experience, that it’s not just indifference. Just look at the negative media frenzy before Pope’s visit to the UK. People are increasingly getting more hostile towards Christianity there and there’s a social stigma to practising our religion.

I could nearly guarantee that if we have children there, they will abandon their faith. But here, especially as Orthodox, they will practise it.

I haven’t made up my mind yet - and I wish I didn’t have to. We seem to be suffering for something the respective churches should have sorted out centuries ago.

 

[Madaglan]

From what I understand it’s pretty much the same with OO or EO regarding marriage. They have to have it in one of their Orthodox churches for it to be valid. Although after the marriage, I’ve heard they’d allow you to have another ceremony (if you wanted) in the Catholic church. But in their eyes the first marriage in the OO church would be the valid one, and from what I understand the CC will allow for Catholics to get married in the EO or OO churches and it considers them valid.

The EO Churches generally allow a marriage between an Orthodox and a non-Orthodox Christian (marriages between Orthodox and non-Christians are not allowed). However, the marriage must be in an Orthodox church, and unlike marriages in which both members are Orthodox, there is no sharing of communion. I believe this is an allowance, the practice of economy, with the idea that in many cases the Orthodox spouse brings the non-Orthodox spouse into Orthodoxy.

As I understand the OO, they are strict in that an Oriental Orthodox can only marry an Oriental Orthodox. If a Catholic wants to marry a Coptic Orthodox Christian, he/she must be baptized as a Coptic or Oriental Orthodox Christian.

The Latin Church would take serious issue with a Catholic converting to Oriental Orthodoxy or Eastern Orthodoxy, since from the point of view of the Latin Church, both are defective in that they do not believe in the papal doctrines. The Latin Church would consider such a move as a sin, a repudiation of the fullness of the Christian faith. Of course, the Oriental Orthodox, like the Eastern Orthodox, consider the Latin Church to have departed to some degree or another from the Apostolic Faith.

If you do decide to marry this girl, you will have to become Coptic Orthodox, or she will have to decide to disregard Coptic Orthodox teaching on marriage.

 

[Madaglan]

I don’t think the Latin Church would say that a Catholic who becomes OO or EO is condemned to Hell. That would be presumptuous. Yet, I think that it could be said, from the perspective of Catholicism, that, as belief in papal infallibility and all other Catholic doctrines is necessary for salvation, and that being under the Pope of Rome is a condition for salvation, Catholics put their souls at grave risk in converting to a non-Catholic faith. The idea also is that a Catholic moves from the fullness of the truth to something truthful but defective. A Catholic who knowingly moves away from the fullness of the truth is committing a sin against God. The degree of ignorance helps determine culpability.

It’s sad to hear that things are so secularized in Britain. I recently read Peter Hitchen’s (not to be confused with his atheist brother, Christopher) book Rage Against God, in which he describes the cultural shifts in Britain the past hundred years. It’s quite shocking.

 

[Trebor135]

That’s why the OP could request a dispensation from his Catholic bishop and have one valid marriage–at a Coptic church. Both he and his girlfriend would thus be following the rules of their respective churches.

Also if the OO have the same views on the sacrament of marriage as the EO whereby the ministers confers the sacrament it would not be a valid marriage in any case.

What do you mean here?

 

[Trebor135]

I take you to have been addressing me, so I wish to clarify. When I stated,

“The Coptic Church is not christologically heretical, but it does not recognize the primacy of the Catholic Pope. It appears to be, and remains, in schism; if this is the case, conversion from Catholicism to Coptic Orthodoxy with full knowledge would appear to be a mortal sin according to the Catholic Church.” (Emphasis added.)

I was simply reiterating official Catholic teaching on the matter of schism and its status as a sin–whether mortal or venial. I condemned no one to hell; I deliberately selected the word “appear” to indicate my awareness that cases must be looked at on an individual basis.

Jimmy Akin has an informative summary of this issue posted online–with which my comments in this thread are fully in line. It can be found here.

 

[Hesychios]

“The Coptic Church is not christologically heretical, but it does not recognize the primacy of the Catholic Pope. It appears to be, and remains, in schism; …”

Or, as they would say “… the Pope and his followers appear to be, and remain in schism.”

 

[agent_grey]

Take the plunge and go for communion. If its the real thing then your good to go. If not then repent and sin no more.

 

[dzheremi]

This book may help you: Oriental Orthodox-Roman Catholic Intermarriage. While it deals primarily with Syrian and Armenian Orthodox churches, the Coptic Orthodox Church is part of the same communion and as such is likely to have similar guidelines.

 

[dzheremi]

Hello to you, Sir. I hope all is well with you and yours. Yes. I’ve more or less resigned from this place, but as an actual resignation of the account is not possible, it remains active should I chose to be active myself.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother murphy7patrick7

I live and work in the Middle East and my girlfriend insists that I have to convert to Coptic Christianity to marry her. Do I really have to?

More importantly, does it really matter if I do convert? What is the Church’s view on this?

I must add that I am quite impressed with how proud the Copts are of their faith. If we moved back to the UK and she became a Catholic, I’d be deeply worried that our children would inevitably become atheist, just like everyone else has back home…

I am a Coptic Orthodox who translated to Catholicism.

I pray for you because you are in a difficult situation. I married Catholic after I became Catholic so I did not go through the same conflict.

It is true that in Coptic Orthodoxy, a Coptic Orthodox can only marry another Coptic Orthodox (there is some pastoral provision for marrying an EO, but only in Egypt). If she were to marry someone of another faith, she would be excommunicated. Given the social structure of Coptic Orthodox society, she would lose much of her support, and it would almost be cruel to subject your girlfriend to that.

There is one very slim chance, but it would entail you moving out of the Middle East. Coptic Orthodox in the Middle East are extremely conservative for the most part. There are elements in Middle Eastern Coptic Orthodoxy which does not even consider Catholicism as part of Christianity. They don’t even accept the validity of Catholic Baptism. But that is not a universal attitude among Coptic Orthodox. There are some dioceses abroad (abroad in relation to Egypt and the Middle East) which do accept the validity of Catholic Baptism. Some call this attitude “liberal,” but it is actually very conservative, since the non-acceptance of the validity of Catholic Baptism is actually the novelty in the history of Coptic Orthodoxy (coming about only in the 20th century).

You may be able to find a priest who is willing to accept you as a Christian. You’ll never know until you try. I have corresponded with CO in England who accept the validity of Catholic Baptism, and would demand another baptism not to make up for defect of Grace, but only to make up for defect of form (i.e., triune immersion). Find a priest who is wiling to hear you out. Explain to him your Faith as a Catholic, because chances are he will have many misconceptions about the Catholic Faith. Also explain to him the current pastoral provisions on marriage between the CC and the SOC/ AAC, with whom the CO are in full communion. If you can convince him that you are Christian, there is a slim chance you can marry your wife as a Catholic. As stated, you’ll never know until you try.

I am certainly not one to suggest that you become Coptic Orthodox just for the sake of marriage. But I do agree with another poster who stated earlier that conversion to Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy is not considered a drastic departure from the Faith in the Catholic perspective (as distinct from conversion to Protestantism).

Of course, you also have the option of convincing your wife the Truth about the Catholic Faith. From my own experience, this would not entail that your wife reject any Truth she holds as a Coptic Orthodox, but merely a rejection of strong misconceptions she may have about the Catholic Faith.

As stated, you will be in my prayers.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. Interestestingly, while a CO is normally not permitted to marry a non-CO, if one CO spouse became Catholic after marriage, it would not be sufficient grounds for divorce.

 

[Fr_Kyrillos]

The Coptic Orthodox Church applies the same principle to all the Sacraments/Mysteries of the Church. Thus, the Sacrament of Marriage would only be given in the Church to those who share Eucharistic Communion. Unfortunately, till this point…for the Coptic Orthodox, that would only include the family of Churches known as the Oriental Orthodox.

The lack of Eucharistic Communion is a painful reminder of our divisions and should be an impetus to our efforts to resolve those differences. Until then, however, it seems reasonable that all Sacraments be applied in the same manner.

Believe me, this poses a great pastoral challenge for us in the West as many of our youth will obviously meet and fall in love with people who are not within our Communion. So it is not something I take lightly…but in the end these things are in the hands of the Lord.

God bless,
Fr. Kyrillos

 

[benidict]

I live and work in the Middle East and my girlfriend insists that I have to convert to Coptic Christianity to marry her. Do I really have to?

More importantly, does it really matter if I do convert? What is the Church’s view on this?

I must add that I am quite impressed with how proud the Copts are of their faith. If we moved back to the UK and she became a Catholic, I’d be deeply worried that our children would inevitably become atheist, just like everyone else has back home…

im just curious how you got a middle eastern woman to talk to you… i havent figured out how its done yet. but my situation may be a little different. from a human perspective, id have to say, Go For It. middle eastern women seem much more respectful towards their husbands from what ive seen. and they are more modest. peace