Is It a Grave Sin to Vote Democrat?

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Maximus_Power said:
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LeafByNiggle:
When, in the voter’s opinion, more good can come or more evil can be avoided by voting for such a person.
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Is this hypothetical voter ignorant of politics?
Because in such case his sin would be lessoned to a venial.

This sounds similar to the supremacy of conscience heresey.
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Just because someone does not share the same political assessment of candidates as someone else, that does not make the first person ignorant.
 
That clarifies it for me. You thought I was using a straw man because you thought I contributed that to you, which I would not have, as it seems to me you never went so far as to equate a party vote with mortal sin.

As this is a group discussion, I was referencing the earlier points, which is why I prefaced my statement, “This is the very type of…” to make it analogous to your point, not to put words in your mouth. I will try and see if there might be a better way next time to be more clear on that. Maybe I could use the @ function to specify who I refer to.
 
Vern, do you think that the two issues are separate, that of reducing abortions, and that of having laws limiting or eliminating abortions? I do not ask accusingly, but it seems these are often treated as one, and you have given one of the pithiest responses as to why moral laws in and of themselves. Let me repeat what you posted, as we need every opportunity to break this Republican/Democrat duality.
vern_humphrey said:
Repealing Roe V Wade will probably not materially reduce abortions – but it would be a moral statement, like repealing the Nuremberg Laws.
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We all need to realize complex issues are more than mottos and picking sides.
 
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Actually we don’t even need to appeal to the supremacy of conscience doctrine in the case where it was brought up. What was being claimed by the one who brought it up is ignorance of political realities. That’s not the same thing as ignorance of Church doctrine. One could argue that a person is obligated to inform his conscience on matters of Church doctrine before relying on his conscience. There is no such obligation to be perfectly informed on secular matters, such as who is or who is not a corrupt politician.
 
farronwolf said:
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JSRG:
It’s the same thing with abortion. The primary legal argument against Roe v. Wade is that the Constitution doesn’t say anything one way or the other and thus the level of restrictions on abortion should be left to the individual states. As Antonin Scalia wrote: “The States may, if they wish, permit abortion on demand, but the Constitution does not require them to do so.”
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That right there is your answer to the reason I see fault with single issue “abortion” voters. Even the SCOTUS is not going to ban abortions. Your quote from the conservative side of the bench even said so. Voting with the hopes that a conservative bench will overturn Roe and end abortion is not going to happen, even if the issue is turned back over for each state to decide.

Like I said in my post earlier. No President, Senator, Representative or even Justice is going to ban abortions. Only a Constitutional Amendment will accomplish that.
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If we’re talking about a nationwide ban, that is unlikely. However, there are plenty of states–perhaps even a majority–who would enact more restrictive abortion laws should Roe v. Wade be overturned or at least restricted. Sure, most states aren’t going to go as far as Alabama tried, but we’d see more restrictions than we have now.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Just because someone does not share the same political assessment of candidates as someone else, that does not make the first person ignorant
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Of course it doesn’t. What I’m saying is that perhaps said follower of Christ doesn’t know that the person he’s voting for supports ideas contrary to the faith and natural law. Like abortion and euthanasia. This said person would be ignorant of the GRAVE evil he just casted his support behind.
 
Maximus_Power said:
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LeafByNiggle:
Just because someone does not share the same political assessment of candidates as someone else, that does not make the first person ignorant
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Of course it doesn’t. What I’m saying is that perhaps said follower of Christ doesn’t know that the person he’s voting for supports ideas contrary to the faith and natural law. Like abortion and euthanasia. This said person would be ignorant of the GRAVE evil he just casted his support behind.
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Yes, that is a possibility. But there is another possibility. That is when the voter knows full well the grave evil that the person he votes for supports. But in his judgement, that candidate has little chance of actually affecting that evil. Such would be the case, for example, if one voted for a County Drain Commissioner who the voter happens to know is very pro-choice. Yet he is a very capable Drain Commissioner - much better than his opponent. The fact that the candidate is pro-choice does not matter in that election since Drain Commissioners have very little to do with abortion policy. That is an extreme case, but the same type of reasoning could apply to higher offices, even to the President. And now if you bring in the possibility of serious corruption on the part of the opponent of this pro-abortion candidate, it becomes a real question which candidate will do the most harm.
 
Maximus_Power said:
So what are you saying? Pope Francis says it’s not a sin to assist in an abortion as long as my conscience is clear about it?
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There is a difference between assisting in an abortion and voting for someone who believes in the right to abortion. This thread is about voting, not having, performing or assisting in an abortion.

What Pope Francis said is that priests must teach to inform those consciences of the faithful, upon which they rely to make proper moral decisions. If you will check the USCCB voter’s guide, you will find it does speak about abortion, but also puts voting in its proper perspective. I objected to the reference that what the Catechism, and the Pope teaches about conscience is somehow a heresy.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
that is a possibility. But there is another possibility. That is when the voter knows full well the grave evil that the person he votes for supports. But in his judgement, that candidate has little chance of actually affecting that evil. Such would be the case, for example, if one voted for a County Drain Commissioner who the voter happens to know is very pro-choice. Yet he is a very capable Drain Commissioner - much better than his opponent. The fact that the candidate is pro-choice does not matter in that election since Drain Commissioners have very little to do with abortion policy.
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I have nothing to do with abortion policy, but if I put on a pro choice bumper sticker on my car and go to Church everyday people will think that I support abortion and because I’m Catholic maybe that’s ok.

The prochoice drain commissioner is in a position of leadership he influences people based on his authority of office and support of that office. If he’s openly prolife then I’d vote for someone who isnt.

It’s a little like saying the management at aushwitz wasnt that bad because they weren’t affecting Nazi policy.

I’d rather see my neighborhood flooded than one child deliberately murdered with my tax dollars
 
pnewton said:
There is a difference between assisting in an abortion and voting for someone who believes in the right to abortion. This thread is about voting, not having, performing or assisting in an abortion.
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What is that difference? Seriously curious because I don’t see it. If I give my time talent and treasure to a charity that helps feed the poor am I helping to feed the poor?

If I give my support to a politician who wants to push abortion am I not supporting abortion?
pnewton said:
objected to the reference that what the Catechism, and the Pope teaches about conscience is somehow a heresy.
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I feel like I got strawmaned here, but I suppose it’s ok as long as your conscience is clear.
 
Maximus_Power said:
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LeafByNiggle:
that is a possibility. But there is another possibility. That is when the voter knows full well the grave evil that the person he votes for supports. But in his judgement, that candidate has little chance of actually affecting that evil. Such would be the case, for example, if one voted for a County Drain Commissioner who the voter happens to know is very pro-choice. Yet he is a very capable Drain Commissioner - much better than his opponent. The fact that the candidate is pro-choice does not matter in that election since Drain Commissioners have very little to do with abortion policy.
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I have nothing to do with abortion policy, but if I put on a pro choice bumper sticker on my car and go to Church everyday people will think that I support abortion and because I’m Catholic maybe that’s ok.

The prochoice drain commissioner is in a position of leadership he influences people based on his authority of office and support of that office. If he’s openly prolife then I’d vote for someone who isnt.

It’s a little like saying the management at aushwitz wasnt that bad because they weren’t affecting Nazi policy.

I’d rather see my neighborhood flooded than one child deliberately murdered with my tax dollars
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Would you rather see you neighborhood flooded than have one drain commissioner with a pro-choice sticker on his bumper? That’s about all he could do with his “position,” the same as you. I don’t think it is worth a flooded neighborhood, and possible contamination of ground water, possibly poisoning people’s wells, just to reduce the visibility of one pro-choice official.
 
One sin offends an infinite God infinitely. I’d rather flood the whole neighborhood than cause the sin of scandal
 
“You’d rather” is an expression of a personal opinion. I would “rather” see people’s health protected by a competent drain commissioner. It is not my intention to convince you to adopt my view on this matter. It is only my intention to establish that my view on this one example is not a prohibited view by Church doctrine.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
You’d rather” is an expression of a personal opinion.
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Did you not ask me my opinion?
LeafByNiggle said:
Would you rather see you neighborhood flooded than have one drain commissioner with a pro-choice sticker on his bumper?
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LeafByNiggle said:
is only my intention to establish that my view on this one example is not a prohibited view by Church doctrine.
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To my knowledge “,and I maybe wrong about this.” There is no church doctrine on how to vote.
 
Personally I would not support a pro-abortion candidate for any elective office, no matter how minor, any more than I would support a Nazi for any public office no matter how minor.
 
Maximus_Power said:
What is that difference?
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One incurs excommunication. One may or may not be sinful. This is a huge difference. Formal or material cooperation with evil, remote or direct cooperation, are principles that make a difference between something being morally acceptable, all the way up to being mortally sinful.
Maximus_Power said:
What is that difference? Seriously curious because I don’t see it. If I give my time talent and treasure to a charity that helps feed the poor am I helping to feed the poor?

If I give my support to a politician who wants to push abortion am I not supporting abortion?
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These too are different. If you give money to feed the poor, the intention is to feed the poor. If you give money to promote abortion, then you have a parallel.
 
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pnewton said:
These too are different. If you give money to feed the poor, the intention is to feed the poor. If you give money to promote abortion, then you have a parallel.
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Democracts almost always want to fund planned Parenthood with public tax dollars

Tax dollars are partially mine.

Voting for a prochoice Democrat is funding abortion.

The sin is lessoned by lack of intention and possibly ignorance, but I don’t think you can say that a sin isn’t there.
 
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