Is it a liturgical abuse?

[Tis_Bearself]

PS - I am not used to novus ordo Mass, so I can’t tell for sure. But I am sure this is not allowed during Traditional Roman Mass.

Apparently this was not a Mass, or the OP wouldn’t have been calling it s “Paraliturgy” instead of a “Liturgy”. It sounds like it was some type of prayer and reflection service.

And we don’t “venerate” stoles at “Novus Ordo” Mass either.

 

[Cate]

To all concerned: it was a stole. A priest stole not a deacon stole. It was a stole in use for liturgical/sacramental purposes by the resident community priest. It was not a liturgy. It was a public catholic prayer “thing” not connected to a liturgy, in a catholic chapel with blessed sacrament present in the central tabernacle. Said priest may or may not have been present.
I realise I could approach the priest to discuss my concern. I could also approach the nun who draped the stole on the altar for people to kneel down and touch it while they prayed. Before I do that I want to establish whether or not what was done was for want of a better phrase “objectively naughty”. I presume there was no subjective fault committed. My concern to elaborate, is that I don’t like my children being exposed to catholic role models who break the rules in public contexts such as these. It can create scandal. If I approach either person they may brush it off as not erroneous and give me an inadequate reason why. I want to know before hand, armed with something convincing, if their actions were wrong, so I can educate them. No point doing so if draping priest stoles on altars etc is really quite fine.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If you don’t like these events and don’t like your children to be around the clergy or religious who run them, then I would suggest going to a different Catholic church.

I further don’t understand why, if this was only a “paraliturgy”, and you find it so objectionable, you were even there at all. It obviously wasn’t a Mass, much less a Mass you were obligated to attend, such as for Sunday. And how are the children involved? Was this something they had to attend for school?

With respect to what was done with the stole, if indeed it was a stole, then it might not have been appropriate to drape it over the altar rather than draping it over a priest. However, I do not see how people kneeling and saying a prayer is a bad thing. I presume they were praying to God and not “Venerating the Stole” and that the stole was just there to remind them of something related to the prayer.

 

[puer.dei]

I realise I could approach the priest to discuss my concern. I could also approach the nun who draped the stole on the altar for people to kneel down and touch it while they prayed. Before I do that I want to establish whether or not what was done was for want of a better phrase “objectively naughty”. I presume there was no subjective fault committed.

But you seem unclear on exactly what this event was, and those are the best people to ask. I don’t see how you xan expect to determine if it was wrong before finding out exactly what was going on.

 

[Anesti33]

Cate:

catholic dictionary definition

The Catholic dictionary isn’t an actual church document.

There isn’t any such thing as a para-liturgy as far as an actual “thing” in the church. There are liturgies and there are other things that are not liturgies.

It was not a sacramental service or the divine office.

Then “liturgical abuse” isn’t really applicable, because it’s not a liturgy so there is no “abuse” of the liturgy, meaning failure to follow the rubrics.

Fr. John Hardon is a highly-respected theologian, and his Catholic Dictionary is as good as the Catholic Encyclopedia for reliability of reference material.

A stole is a liturgical object. It can be abused. If I serve dinner in ciboria and a chalice, then that is a liturgical abuse. If I have a modern interpretive dance recital in a Catholic church sanctuary with the Blessed Sacrament present, then that is a liturgical abuse. No Mass necessary.

 

[BartholomewB]

He may have been present. I think he was.

This event took place at least a couple of months ago. I think the priest may have been present. I think he may have passed his stole to the nun who put it on the altar.

Since you don’t have a perfectly clear recollection of exactly who did what, I would like to make a suggestion. Carry on attending these prayer meetings, if that’s what they are, and wait for the same thing to happen again. In the meantime, find out whether the priest concerned is a diocesan priest or if he belongs to one of the orders, and if so which one, e.g. Carmelites, Claretians, Franciscans, Jesuits, etc. Then, next time it happens, try and engage the priest in conversation, but not in a challenging way. Just comment that you have never seen that ceremony in any other church. Is it a traditional one in this diocese? Or maybe in the priest’s order? And see what he says about it, simply in terms of purely factual information. Nothing about judging whether it’s the right or the wrong thing to do.

 

[Cate]

( I’m new here and haven’t figured out how to tag or quote people and stuff like that sorry.)
I’m not unclear on what the event was. I have not given enough description for others here to have a clearer picture because it would be time consuming and not necessary. What is necessary is the information I have given I believe. I am unclear on whether or not the priest was present. That doesn’t change whether or not such use of a stole was objectively right or wrong or neither.
I don’t think a person needs to understand why I was there or precisely how my children come into it. I don’t require anyone to determine for me why it matters. It matters to me for what I deem good reasons. But in case it helps…I don’t have to go there again. I didn’t need to be there but I was. I could take my children there in the future in order to enrich their faith. I’m just wanting to learn is it ok to use a stole in this way or not, according to the mind of the Church, not Susan from the parish council, not Fr So and So. Either such use of the stole was permissible according to the mind of the church or not. If it was not a I need to decide whether I ought to expose my children to events where this kind of thing could happen. I can’t begin to make that decision if I don’t know. Asking the people running the event might not give me the right answer. So I just thought somebody here might know for sure and be able to back it up.

 

[Cate]

The priest, and the nun who did the draping belong to a new Catholic community founded in the 70’s. It is a public association of the faithful. It doesn’t follow an already established rule or liturgical traditions like religious orders like Dominicans, Redemptorists, Carmelites etc etc. I haven’t named it because if such stole draping ought not to be done I don’t want to damage their reputation. They are well intentioned people.

 

[felsguy]

Please define paraliturgy

It is a term often used to describe an “unofficial” gathering of the faithful for worship usually involving some form of group prayer and/or Scripture reading, music, symbolic actions, etc, led by clergy or laypersons, which is not part of the official public worship (“Liturgy”) of the Church. These are sometimes called prayers services instead.

As such there are no rubrics to run afoul of. I suppose if something contrary to Catholic belief or something irreverent or commonly seen as inappropriate were involved, that could be labelled “abuse” but it wouldn’t technically be “liturgical abuse.”

Edited to add: Tried real hard but couldn’t resist saying maybe we could invent the term “para-liturgical abuse” although I’m not suggesting it would apply to anything described in the OP.

 

[Montrose]

To all concerned: it was a stole. A priest stole not a deacon stole. It was a stole in use for liturgical/sacramental purposes by the resident community priest. It was not a liturgy. It was a public catholic prayer “thing” not connected to a liturgy, in a catholic chapel with blessed sacrament present in the central tabernacle. Said priest may or may not have been present.
I realise I could approach the priest to discuss my concern. I could also approach the nun who draped the stole on the altar for people to kneel down and touch it while they prayed. Before I do that I want to establish whether or not what was done was for want of a better phrase “objectively naughty”. I presume there was no subjective fault committed. My concern to elaborate, is that I don’t like my children being exposed to catholic role models who break the rules in public contexts such as these. It can create scandal. If I approach either person they may brush it off as not erroneous and give me an inadequate reason why. I want to know before hand, armed with something convincing, if their actions were wrong, so I can educate them. No point doing so if draping priest stoles on altars etc is really quite fine.

Actually your very first stop should be talking to the priest. How can you possibly know the whole story without doing that. We don’t know the whole story so how can anyone here answer your questions.

 

[Pitcairn17]

1ke:

Please define paraliturgy

It is a term often used to describe an “unofficial” gathering of the faithful for worship usually involving some form of group prayer and/or Scripture reading, music, symbolic actions, etc, led by clergy or laypersons, which is not part of the official public worship (“Liturgy”) of the Church. These are sometimes called prayers services instead.

As such there are no rubrics to run afoul of. I suppose if something contrary to Catholic belief or something irreverent or commonly seen as inappropriate were involved, that could be labelled “abuse” but it wouldn’t technically be “liturgical abuse.”

Edited to add: Tried real hard but couldn’t resist saying maybe we could invent the term “para-liturgical abuse” although I’m not suggesting it would apply to anything described in the OP.

I’m all for inventing a new term. Molesting altar boys is abusive. Changing the “Words of Institution” is an abuse. Touching a stole and saying a prayer? Reminds me of the old saying that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[felsguy]

felsguy:

Edited to add: Tried real hard but couldn’t resist saying maybe we could invent the term “para-liturgical abuse” although I’m not suggesting it would apply to anything described in the OP.

I’m all for inventing a new term. Molesting altar boys is abusive. Changing the “Words of Institution” is an abuse. Touching a stole and saying a prayer? Reminds me of the old saying that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

My hesitation was for fear of it opening the floodgates for a plethora of new posts here on CAF about “para-liturgical abuse.”

 

[Cate]

Thanks felsguy. This was most helpful. How does one as sensitive as I ( without judging whether or not that sensitivity is good or bad) know what is and isnt a paraliturgical abuse , for want of a better term? You see there are a many catholics who would suspect stole draping events such as the one described as being paraliturgical abuses, I hang out with them. There are also many who wouldn’t be able to conceive a problem with it. It is so hard to know who to listen to and I just want to do the right thing.

 

[phil19034]

@Cate - I going to say this. What you described sounds strange / odd.

Unless the stole belonged to a Saint or a priest up for Sainthood, I’m not sure why what you describe would be happening.

And treating a stole as an altar cloth would be an liturgical abuse at worse or an improper use of vestments at best.

As others have said, there might be a legitimate thing going on that you are unaware of. However, I do think the whole thing sounds strange.

May I suggest you walk up the Father and say something like:

Father, several months ago, there was some kind of prayer service, where it looked like a stole was placed on the altar. Are you familiar with what I’m talking about and if so, could you please explain to me what that service was? Because I honestly found it to be a little confusing.

See what he says

God bless

 

[felsguy]

Thanks felsguy. This was most helpful. How does one as sensitive as I ( without judging whether or not that sensitivity is good or bad) know what is and isnt a paraliturgical abuse , for want of a better term? You see there are a many catholics who would suspect stole draping events such as the one described as being paraliturgical abuses, I hang out with them. There are also many who wouldn’t be able to conceive a problem with it. It is so hard to know who to listen to and I just want to do the right thing.

I understand what you are saying. I suggest for some issues you have the authentic teaching of the Church although I myself would be hard pressed to find any that applies to stole draping. For others you may have to step back and ask yourself whether or not most reasonable Catholics would find something is offensive to God.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

How does one as sensitive as I ( without judging whether or not that sensitivity is good or bad) know what is and isnt a paraliturgical abuse , for want of a better term? You see there are a many catholics who would suspect stole draping events such as the one described as being paraliturgical abuses, I hang out with them. There are also many who wouldn’t be able to conceive a problem with it.

Outside of liturgy (where we have rubrics), there really isn’t much to go on except Canon Law and general sensibilities. The problem with the latter, like the two groups of people you describe, is that we’re straying into subjective territory where it becomes a matter of opinion and preferences. One person might be scandalized by the action you’ve described; obviously, there’s an entire community that’s fine with it. There isn’t a specific written instruction anywhere to say one way or another.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

How does one as sensitive as I ( without judging whether or not that sensitivity is good or bad) know what is and isnt a paraliturgical abuse , for want of a better term?

You could ask the priest about it and then based on what he says, you could decide if you want to go one level up and contact the diocese. The diocese will not talk to you unless/ until you’ve discussed with your priest. If you are unwilling to talk to your priest, then it’s going to be hard to get any further with this.

You see there are a many catholics who would suspect stole draping events such as the one described as being paraliturgical abuses, I hang out with them. There are also many who wouldn’t be able to conceive a problem with it. It is so hard to know who to listen to and I just want to do the right thing.

As far as I can see, you yourself are not committing the act you’re concerned about, as in it’s not your stole and you aren’t draping it.

You could choose to not support prayer events you find questionable, by not attending them. Such events are optional for Catholics. You don’t have to go.

If you choose to attend, you could ask the priest about what was going on with the stole, so you fully understand, because right now it still seems like there’s confusion on your part about this. Once he tells you, then you could decide what to do next, such as “do nothing”, “stop attending”, or “contact the diocese”.

This to me is the only logical course of action.

There’s no book of rubrics for prayer services, so the only issue here is whether a stole was somehow misused.

 

[Dovekin]

In the Church, which is the Body of Christ, not all members have the same function. This diversity of offices is shown outwardly in the celebration of the Eucharist by the diversity of sacred vestments, which must therefore be a sign of the function proper to each minister. Moreover, these same sacred vestments should also contribute to the decoration of the sacred action itself. The vestments worn by Priests and Deacons, as well as the attire worn by lay ministers, are blessed before being put into liturgical use according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual.
GIRM 335

Stoles are sacred vestments. Their misuse can certainly be a liturgical abuse, as @Anesti33 has already said, even outside of the liturgy.

Laying the stole on the altar is an unusual use for it. It is usually used as a vestment. But there may have been a catechetical or devotional purpose. Priests often (always?) kiss a stole before putting it on, which is a kind of veneration. Most of us, since we are not priests, do not know much about that. There probably a prayer attached that someone could find. (In The Book of Blessings?)

The Stole represents the burdens placed on Jesus while he carried his Cross. More broadly it is a yoke that ties the priest to Christ as two oxen are attached to pull a plow. The priest is assuming the burdens of Christ in the practice of His ministry, and Christ assumes the burdens of the priest. Not as a substitute for one another, but as brothers walking alongside one another.

If this is the message, or something related to the stole, then it may not be a liturgical abuse. It is a devotion meant to associate people with the priests who wear the stole and to explain its significance by placing it on the altar which is a primary symbol of Christ. It might be to give thanks for priests who wear stoles.

But I am just guessing. You should ask a priest or whoever organized the service in question.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Outside of liturgy (where we have rubrics)

In the Ruthenian Recension, which governs both the Byzantine and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches, rubrics govern not just Divine Liturgy but ALL Divine Services (Vespers, Compline, Matins, the Hours).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In the Ruthenian Recension , which governs both the Byzantine and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches, rubrics govern not just Divine Liturgy but ALL Divine Services (Vespers, Compline, Matins, the Hours).

I believe the Hours are considered liturgy, even though you might not call them “Liturgy” in your governance document.
The LOTH is the public prayer of the Church. It and the Mass are liturgy.
Other prayer services are not considered liturgy.
It doesn’t sound like this service the OP mentioned was any type of LOTH (such as Vespers, Matins, etc.)