Is it a matter of scandal that there are virtually no lay married male saints except for kings and martyrs?

[Hokomai]

This topic has come up once or twice before by way of question - I’ve reviewed those posts and wanted to raise it again, because while some interesting information was shared, the actual issue: is this not a bad thing? was barely touched on. I have posted in the Traditional forum area because it seems to me it is a matter of Catholic custom.

The point I want to make is this: virtually no men who have lived the ordinary live of faith praised by the Church as fathers and husbands have been recognised as saints in the past few centuries. If you are in this category, the only things that will get you on the road to sainthood is being martyred, or being a king. Being the father of a saint may count too.

I cannot help but think that this represents some sort of statement about men who are not celibate, and a deep and enduring rejection of the value of married life. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but won’t be convinced by the statements of the Church: it is actions I am drawing attention to here - actions which seem to contradict the teachings about the value of marriage.

And should the answer be: sainthood comes to those with religious orders behind them to do the lobbying needed - of what value is the practice of declaring saints, since it is based on campaigning, and not recognition of merit?

 

[patrick457]

This topic has come up once or twice before by way of question - I’ve reviewed those posts and wanted to raise it again, because while some interesting information was shared, the actual issue: is this not a bad thing? was barely touched on. I have posted in the Traditional forum area because it seems to me it is a matter of Catholic custom.

The point I want to make is this: virtually no men who have lived the ordinary live of faith praised by the Church as fathers and husbands have been recognised as saints in the past few centuries. If you are in this category, the only things that will get you on the road to sainthood is being martyred, or being a king. Being the father of a saint may count too.

I cannot help but think that this represents some sort of statement about men who are not celibate, and a deep and enduring rejection of the value of married life. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but won’t be convinced by the statements of the Church: it is actions I am drawing attention to here - actions which seem to contradict the teachings about the value of marriage.

And should the answer be: sainthood comes to those with religious orders behind them to do the lobbying needed - of what value is the practice of declaring saints, since it is based on campaigning, and not recognition of merit?

Hmm, that’s a very interesting question indeed.

Does St. Joseph count? I know that historically he was not the target of much attention (compared to Mary or even Jesus) - devotion to him only took up steam starting from the late Middle Ages, and then again mostly in the West - but he’s one married male saint who we could say is a layperson.

 

[DaveBj]

This topic has come up once or twice before by way of question - I’ve reviewed those posts and wanted to raise it again, because while some interesting information was shared, the actual issue: is this not a bad thing? was barely touched on. I have posted in the Traditional forum area because it seems to me it is a matter of Catholic custom.

The point I want to make is this: virtually no men who have lived the ordinary live of faith praised by the Church as fathers and husbands have been recognised as saints in the past few centuries. If you are in this category, the only things that will get you on the road to sainthood is being martyred, or being a king. Being the father of a saint may count too.

I cannot help but think that this represents some sort of statement about men who are not celibate, and a deep and enduring rejection of the value of married life. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but won’t be convinced by the statements of the Church: it is actions I am drawing attention to here - actions which seem to contradict the teachings about the value of marriage.

And should the answer be: sainthood comes to those with religious orders behind them to do the lobbying needed - of what value is the practice of declaring saints, since it is based on campaigning, and not recognition of merit?

Very good and perceptive question, Hokomai, especially the part about the role of lobbying in getting someone declared a saint. I’m a relative newcomer to Catholicism, so I don’t have the comprehensive answers, except that we are not limited to canonized saints when we go to request intercession. Other than that, I’m just going to sit back and wait for responses from people more informed than I am.

 

[Hokomai]

Hmm, that’s a very interesting question indeed.

Does St. Joseph count? I know that historically he was not the target of much attention (compared to Mary or even Jesus) - devotion to him only took up steam starting from the late Middle Ages, and then again mostly in the West - but he’s one married male saint who we could say is a layperson.

I guess I should have said ‘non-celibate married men’. In this sense St Joseph seems to be an exception which proves the rule, since my guess is that this attitude is based in an attitude to sex.

 

[patrick457]

I guess I should have said ‘non-celibate married men’. In this sense St Joseph seems to be an exception which proves the rule, since my guess is that this attitude is based in an attitude to sex.

And this attitude to sex is?

Not exactly canonized saints, but AFAIK St. Therese of Lisieux’s parents are both beatified. And there’s also the Venerable Pierre Toussaint. BTW what about Thomas More? Although he is Lord Chancellor and thus a public figure.

 

[TrueLight]

I wonder if there are a lot of married Female Saints?

I know there are some here and there especially in more modern times, but aren’t most female Saints “virgins”?

Oh by the way, Happy Feast Day St Rose of Lima! Another virgin.

 

[Jane_of_Arc]

I guess I should have said ‘non-celibate married men’. In this sense St Joseph seems to be an exception which proves the rule, since my guess is that this attitude is based in an attitude to sex.

I don’t think it has anything to do with the Churches’ “attitude toward sex”, except that celibacy is one of many practices that requires sacrifice. Priests make vows of chastity, poverty & obedience. Sometimes they fall, sometimes they just have to pick themselves up & start over again…but they cannot ever quit struggling against temptation. They cannot have the comfort of a wife after a long & arduous day. They cannot say that, at 65 yrs. of age, I’ll have a nice 401K & will be able to retire in financial
comfort & travel the globe. They will have no grandchildren…no little league baseball games to attend, no dance recitals, no kids running up & saying, “Did you see that, Grandpa”?

Because of this centuries’ priestly scandals, many of us have forgotten that simple, parish priest who gives his whole life to God…but, there are many out there. So, maybe there are more saints among the clergy than among the laity…or…maybe, it IS because there is no one to bring a lay person’s cause before the Vatican. In that case, it’s certainly not the fault of the Church. Maybe all of us should be more aware of the saints around us. I can think of two people right now, that could be recognized saints…my aunt & my Mother-in-Law…yet I did nothing when they died.

 

[DCNBILL]

I don’t think it has anything to do with the Churches’ “attitude toward sex”, except that celibacy is one of many practices that requires sacrifice. Priests make vows of chastity, poverty & obedience. Sometimes they fall, sometimes they just have to pick themselves up & start over again…but they cannot ever quit struggling against temptation. They cannot have the comfort of a wife after a long & arduous day. They cannot say that, at 65 yrs. of age, I’ll have a nice 401K & will be able to retire in financial
comfort & travel the globe. They will have no grandchildren…no little league baseball games to attend, no dance recitals, no kids running up & saying, “Did you see that, Grandpa”?

Because of this centuries’ priestly scandals, many of us have forgotten that simple, parish priest who gives his whole life to God…but, there are many out there. So, maybe there are more saints among the clergy than among the laity…or…maybe, it IS because there is no one to bring a lay person’s cause before the Vatican. In that case, it’s certainly not the fault of the Church. Maybe all of us should be more aware of the saints around us. I can think of two people right now, that could be recognized saints…my aunt & my Mother-in-Law…yet I did nothing when they died.

Well put.

It would seem that the process for beautification would be part of the issue here. Those who the Church recognizes as saints go through a rigorous process of investigation into their character, writings, and numerous other details of their lives in order to be recognized as a saint, and first off their cause has to be put forward to be recognized. It would make perfect sense that people in prominent positions in the Church or society who lead Holy Lives as examples to all would draw more attention and be an easier study for canonization than my Uncle Paul who lead a quiet humble life of goodness and charity to everyone he met.

 

[patrick457]

I wonder if there are a lot of married Female Saints?

I know there are some here and there especially in more modern times, but aren’t most female Saints “virgins”?

Oh by the way, Happy Feast Day St Rose of Lima! Another virgin.

St. Gianna Beretta Molla?

 

[Cristiano]

I wonder if there are a lot of married Female Saints?

I know there are some here and there especially in more modern times, but aren’t most female Saints “virgins”?

Oh by the way, Happy Feast Day St Rose of Lima! Another virgin.

I always safely assumed that Dorothy Day’s lifestyle, common-law marriage an abortion did not seem the early indicators of a virginal life. She is not a canonized saint, but she is recognized as a servant of God and her canonization cause keeps going.

I am not aware of particularly bad behaviors in regard to St. Monica but she was no virgin for sure, she gave birth to St. Augustine.

St. Perpetua was married, had a child and I think that she was nursing while in prison before being martyred.

St. Rita da Cascia comes to mind too, she was married and she helped the family that killed her husband.

 

[mountee]

As I have come to expect from some threads, I have learned some new things today. I appreciate all of you who take the time to ask the questions and those of you who put your hearts and souls into the great answers. God bless you.

 

[Crescentinus]

How about Saint Stephen of Hungary? o:

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Well, at the very least we have the great saints of the Old Testament, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, David, Solomon, Samuel, Samson, etc., etc., etc. These men are all honored as saints, at least in the Eastern Catholic Churches. We also have St. Joseph and St. Zechariah. And let’s not forget the Twelve Apostles, some of whom were married (St. Peter, for example). Among Ethiopian Catholics and Orthodox, Pontius Pilate is considered a saint, along with his wife. The story goes that he actually converted to Christianity and, I believe, ended his days a martyr for the Faith!

I think oftentimes married men play a very background role in life. For example, whenever we speak of the story of the Fall, it always seems to be Eve who gets the blame for being duped by Satan (although we all know that Adam is equally to blame). There are always jokes going around about women really “wearing the pants in the family.” There is also the emphasis of every good man having behind him a good wife. This often leads me to believe that just because the wives are sometimes canonized when husbands are not, does not mean that the husbands themselves did not lead lives of heroic holiness as well. Remember, there are many saints in heaven who have not been officially recognized by the Church, hence the celebration of “All Saints Day.”

I would also point out that married men have played significant roles in the lives of many recognized saints. St. Teresa of Avila, for example, had a couple of spiritual directors who were married men. If one of the greatest mystics of the Western/Latin Church had a married man as her spiritual director, one wonders what kind of a spiritual man he was!

So I guess the whole point is that just because few married men are recognized/canonized saints, that certainly does not mean that the Church lacks married male saints.

 

[Joe_5859]

There are more than you might think. The book Married Saints and Blesseds Through the Centuries would be a good place to go.

That said, there is a valid point being made by the question. Pope John Paul II recognized the need and he made a concerted effort to canonize more lay people. So there are a lot more than there were 40 years ago.

I don’t think “scandal” is the right word, though. I would say “unfortunate”. But I think the situation has already improved and will keep improving. So as a married lay man, I’m not really too concerned about it. We have Thomas More. Who else do you need?

 

[patrick457]

Well, at the very least we have the great saints of the Old Testament, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, David, Solomon, Samuel, Samson, etc., etc., etc. These men are all honored as saints, at least in the Eastern Catholic Churches. We also have St. Joseph and St. Zechariah. And let’s not forget the Twelve Apostles, some of whom were married (St. Peter, for example). Among Ethiopian Catholics and Orthodox, Pontius Pilate is considered a saint, along with his wife. The story goes that he actually converted to Christianity and, I believe, ended his days a martyr for the Faith!

The Ethiopians at least consider Pilate as a saint. Generally there were two main views of Pilate in early Christianity: one shows a crypto-Christian who later died for his faith, the other portrays a tragic figure who eventually killed himself, and whose corpse was so infested by demons that people in different areas refused to have his body.

 

[patrick457]

How about Saint Stephen of Hungary? o:

He’s a king.

 

[Crescentinus]

He’s a king.

Oh yeah. o:

 

[ConstantineTG]

I wonder if there are a lot of married Female Saints?

I know there are some here and there especially in more modern times, but aren’t most female Saints “virgins”?

Oh by the way, Happy Feast Day St Rose of Lima! Another virgin.

St. Rita of Cascia

But I think it is obvious here that the Roman Catholic Church wishes to “promote” the virtues of celibacy and virginity, thus only look at those who are such. I have a friend who did a paper for his doctorate in Theology (Eastern Christian Studies) where he looked into the lives of married saints. I have a copy but I have never read it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Louis and Zélie Martin, Parents of St. Thérèse of Lisieux, have been beatified.

While it is true that there are few (if any) married men or women who are saints I believe it is even fewer married couples.

I do not think this has anything to do with a sex or the celibate state. I think this may be more of a projection of motives on to the Church that one may harbor themself.

I would be happy to be proved wrong, but won’t be convinced by the statements of the Church: it is actions I am drawing attention to here - actions which seem to contradict the teachings about the value of marriage.

You state that you would be happy to be proved wrong but then set a condition to being proved wrong that is insurmountable.

As for this being a Scandal, no.

Here is the definition of Scandal from the Catechism of the Catholic Church;
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

I do not see any way that the absence of any group from the revealed Sainthood could lead anyone to do evil.

 

[Skeptic92]

it is more about the beatification process than any underlying teaching. Beatification also requires veneration and a strong support for canonisation for the Church to investigate fully the Persons life- married men and women generally done this much more quietly so a veneration and strong backing for canonisation may not be there.

Most of the Saints are public figures, they were known to many people in their respective areas for various reasons so Rome got to hear about them with a strong backing. It is one of those unfortunate things that happen simply due to the Canonisation process…