B
- Status
S
silicasandra
Guest
Thank you so much to both you and thistle.
You’ve given me a lot more to think about and thanks for the references! I will be reading them.Yes, “state of mind” isn’t exactly what I mean. More that it’s a condition (or just the word “state” as you reference.) The idea of hell as a “location” that we could put on a map, for instance, just doesn’t quite strike me as the way to describe it and I’ve found that many people believe it is exactly like that. For me, it makes sense to use the description of eternal fire, etc. as a metaphor for the torment one would experience - to know God and yet suffer from consciously rejecting Him and His love and mercy, but to see these metaphors too literally can become an exercise in useless “fundamentalism” that can’t see the forest for the trees.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The original question of this thread was "Is it a mortal sin to not believe that Hell exists?". I would like to address that question very narrowly without addressing the question of Hell itself, because I think there is significant distinction between these two questions, and the first one is the one that was asked.
Most of the teachings of the Church have behavioral consequences for us: “You shall not steal” for example enjoins us not to steal. The Church teaches us to pray to God and to worship Him in the mass, and so we pray and go to mass. But what about this teaching of Hell? What are the behavioral consequences of that belief? All by itself it is clearly something we will never encounter directly in this life on earth. But the possibility of Hell after we die would seem to give extra incentive to turn to God here and now (as if more incentive is needed beyond the recognition of God’s love for us in creating and redeeming us). If someone were to deny the existence of Hell, then (as others in this thread have suggested) that person may very well conclude that there is no need to follow God now, and so he might break all sorts of laws of God believing that it didn’t matter in the end. In that case there would be sin, but the sin would be from breaking those other laws of God.
But what about a person who finds plenty of incentive to follow God through the Church prompted solely by the desire for God and the feeling of thankfulness for all His blessings? Recall the words of the Act of Contrition: “…because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee my God who art all good and deserving of all my love…” It is clear from this prayer that we ought to avoid sin mostly because of gratefulness more than fear of Hell. Is it not possible that such a person could entertain some doubt on the existence of Hell, and yet be behaviorally identical to a person who had no such doubts? If his doubt about Hell did not spill over into any area with behavioral consequences, it is hard to see how that person would be condemned by God for having a doubt that never made a difference.
Most of the teachings of the Church have behavioral consequences for us: “You shall not steal” for example enjoins us not to steal. The Church teaches us to pray to God and to worship Him in the mass, and so we pray and go to mass. But what about this teaching of Hell? What are the behavioral consequences of that belief? All by itself it is clearly something we will never encounter directly in this life on earth. But the possibility of Hell after we die would seem to give extra incentive to turn to God here and now (as if more incentive is needed beyond the recognition of God’s love for us in creating and redeeming us). If someone were to deny the existence of Hell, then (as others in this thread have suggested) that person may very well conclude that there is no need to follow God now, and so he might break all sorts of laws of God believing that it didn’t matter in the end. In that case there would be sin, but the sin would be from breaking those other laws of God.
But what about a person who finds plenty of incentive to follow God through the Church prompted solely by the desire for God and the feeling of thankfulness for all His blessings? Recall the words of the Act of Contrition: “…because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee my God who art all good and deserving of all my love…” It is clear from this prayer that we ought to avoid sin mostly because of gratefulness more than fear of Hell. Is it not possible that such a person could entertain some doubt on the existence of Hell, and yet be behaviorally identical to a person who had no such doubts? If his doubt about Hell did not spill over into any area with behavioral consequences, it is hard to see how that person would be condemned by God for having a doubt that never made a difference.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
B
Bookcat
Guest
Jesus was speaking of Hell (though of course Hell is a later English word). Gehenna being used for illustration for Hell. He was not there speaking of purgatory. He is quite clear there of the eternal nature of Hell, even in his use of images (the worm not dieing and the flames not being quenched…)
See also:
CCC 1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”
CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
S
speakttruth
Guest
Double
Good point, though.
To willfully reject the teaching that there is a “place” or “state” where one’s soul will reside for eternity is a mortal sin. This is more a matter of willfully rejecting Church dogma.
To struggle with understanding what hell is or what is its nature is not.
Some days it is good to laugh!
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Well, He’s not here to be asked, but there was no real conception at the time afaik of Hell the way we define it in the Jewish theology. The Romans had such a place, though. The “eternal” fire in Gehenna describes the smoky valley where the fires always burned, not to the future length of time one would be subjected to it.
B
Bookcat
Guest
The way Jesus said it denotes the nature of hell…he was using the image to bring across the point… also the Church who has among other things the office of interpreting Scripture also teaches this referring to his words…see above et al.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
“The way Jesus said it…” was not in English.
There is a terrible consequence after death for a life spent doing evil to others. Exactly how that works we cannot know.
J
Jesus_123
Guest
:bible1: The Holy Bible (Douay Rheims Version [Douai-Rheims], Revised by Bishop Richard Challoner) is a wonderful translation . . . it was first translated . . . ** WORD FOR WORD** . . . from the Latin Vulgate, the Catholic Church’s Official Bible. Bishop Challoner’s edition phrases it to make it more reader-friendly. It was the only . . . ENGLISH . . . Catholic Bible for over 300 years and has been greatly blessed of God as such. The original Latin translation is largely the result of the **Holy Spirit’s **inspiration and annointing of the labors of the blessed St. Jerome . . . and some of the manuscripts **St. Jerome **used are no longer in existence.
In all charity and peace Julia Mae . . . you have not provided us with any source or scholarly basis whatsoever upon which your contrary opinions are based . . . all the portions of Sacred :bible1: Scripture I have quoted are from the Douay Rheims Version . . . using your strange logic we English speaking people would have no access to ** :bible1: Scripture **whatsoever . . .
And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
3 Matthew 5:30 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
4 Matthew 10:28 ]Jesus own words and teaching ]Jesus own words and teaching
And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.
5 Matthew 11:23 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day.
6 Matthew 16:18 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
7 Matthew 18:9 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
8 Matthew 23:15 ]Jesus own words and teaching
Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves.
9 Matthew 23:33 ]Jesus own words and teaching
You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?
10 Mark 9:42 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire:
]Jesus own words and teaching
11 Mark 9:44 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:
12 Mark 9:46 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God, than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire:
13 Luke 10:15 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And thou, Capharnaum, which art exalted unto heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell.
14 Luke 12:5 ]Jesus own words and teaching
But I will shew you whom you shall fear: fear ye him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him.
15 Luke 16:22 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
In all charity and peace Julia Mae . . . you have not provided us with any source or scholarly basis whatsoever upon which your contrary opinions are based . . . all the portions of Sacred :bible1: Scripture I have quoted are from the Douay Rheims Version . . . using your strange logic we English speaking people would have no access to ** :bible1: Scripture **whatsoever . . .
And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
3 Matthew 5:30 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
4 Matthew 10:28 ]Jesus own words and teaching ]Jesus own words and teaching
And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.
5 Matthew 11:23 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day.
6 Matthew 16:18 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
7 Matthew 18:9 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
8 Matthew 23:15 ]Jesus own words and teaching
Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves.
9 Matthew 23:33 ]Jesus own words and teaching
You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?
10 Mark 9:42 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire:
]Jesus own words and teaching
11 Mark 9:44 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:
12 Mark 9:46 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God, than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire:
13 Luke 10:15 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And thou, Capharnaum, which art exalted unto heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell.
14 Luke 12:5 ]Jesus own words and teaching
But I will shew you whom you shall fear: fear ye him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him.
15 Luke 16:22 ]Jesus own words and teaching
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
. . . all for Jesus+
J
Jesus_123
Guest
+God’s Holy :bible1: Word does not support the above statement . . . below is more Sacred :bible1: Scripture clearly supporting the Jewish, Catholic and Christian reality of hell . . . all of which passages come from the **Old :bible1: Testament ** . . .
1 Genesis 37:35
And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,
2 Genesis 42:38
But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.
3 Genesis 44:29
If you take this also, and any thing befall him in the way you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.
4 Genesis 44:31
And he shall see that he is not with us, he will die, and thy servants shall bring down his gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.
5 Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
6 Numbers 16:33
And they went down alive into hell the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.
7 Deuteronomy 32:22
A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains.
8 1 Kings 2:6
The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.
9 2 Kings 22:6
The cords of hell compassed me: the snares of death prevented me.
10 3 Kings 2:6
Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoary head go down to hell in peace.
11 3 Kings 2:9
Do not thou hold him guiltless. But thou art a wise man, and knowest what to do with him, and thou shalt bring down his grey hairs with blood to hell.
12 Tobias 6:15
Now I am afraid, lest the same thing should happen to me also: and whereas I am the only child of my parents, I should bring down their old age with sorrow to hell.
13 Tobias 13:2
For thou scourgest, and thou savest: thou leadest down to hell, and bringest up again: and there is none that can escape thy hand.
14 Esther 13:7
That these wicked men going down to hell in one day, may restore to our empire the peace which they had disturbed.
15 Job 7:9
As a cloud is consumed, and passeth away: so he that shall go down to hell shall not come up.
16 Job 11:8
He is higher than heaven, and what wilt thou do? he is deeper than hell, and how wilt thou know?
17 Job 14:13
Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?
18 Job 17:13
If I wait hell is my house, and I have made my bed in darkness.
19 Job 21:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment they go down to hell.
**
20 Job 24:19**
Let him pass from the snow waters to excessive heat, and his sin even to hell.
21 Job 26:6
Hell is naked before him, and there is no covering for destruction.
22 Psalms 6:6
For there is no one in death, that is mindful of thee: and who shall confess to thee in hell?
23 Psalms 9:18
The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.
24 Psalms 15:10
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt then give thy holy one to see corruption.
25 Psalms 17:6
The sorrows of hell encompassed me: and the snares of death prevented me.
26 Psalms 29:4
Thou hast brought forth, O Lord, my soul from hell: thou hast saved me from them that go down into the pit.
27 Psalms 30:18
Let me not be confounded, O Lord, for I have called upon thee. Let the wicked be ashamed, and be brought down to hell.
28 Psalms 48:15
They are laid in hell like sheep: death shall feed upon them. And the just shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their help shall decay in hell from their glory.
And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,
2 Genesis 42:38
But he said: My son shall not go down with you: his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if any mischief befall him in the land to which you go, you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to hell.
3 Genesis 44:29
If you take this also, and any thing befall him in the way you will bring down my gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.
4 Genesis 44:31
And he shall see that he is not with us, he will die, and thy servants shall bring down his gray hairs with sorrow unto hell.
5 Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
6 Numbers 16:33
And they went down alive into hell the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.
7 Deuteronomy 32:22
A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains.
8 1 Kings 2:6
The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.
9 2 Kings 22:6
The cords of hell compassed me: the snares of death prevented me.
10 3 Kings 2:6
Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoary head go down to hell in peace.
11 3 Kings 2:9
Do not thou hold him guiltless. But thou art a wise man, and knowest what to do with him, and thou shalt bring down his grey hairs with blood to hell.
12 Tobias 6:15
Now I am afraid, lest the same thing should happen to me also: and whereas I am the only child of my parents, I should bring down their old age with sorrow to hell.
13 Tobias 13:2
For thou scourgest, and thou savest: thou leadest down to hell, and bringest up again: and there is none that can escape thy hand.
14 Esther 13:7
That these wicked men going down to hell in one day, may restore to our empire the peace which they had disturbed.
15 Job 7:9
As a cloud is consumed, and passeth away: so he that shall go down to hell shall not come up.
16 Job 11:8
He is higher than heaven, and what wilt thou do? he is deeper than hell, and how wilt thou know?
17 Job 14:13
Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?
18 Job 17:13
If I wait hell is my house, and I have made my bed in darkness.
19 Job 21:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment they go down to hell.
**
20 Job 24:19**
Let him pass from the snow waters to excessive heat, and his sin even to hell.
21 Job 26:6
Hell is naked before him, and there is no covering for destruction.
22 Psalms 6:6
For there is no one in death, that is mindful of thee: and who shall confess to thee in hell?
23 Psalms 9:18
The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.
24 Psalms 15:10
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt then give thy holy one to see corruption.
25 Psalms 17:6
The sorrows of hell encompassed me: and the snares of death prevented me.
26 Psalms 29:4
Thou hast brought forth, O Lord, my soul from hell: thou hast saved me from them that go down into the pit.
27 Psalms 30:18
Let me not be confounded, O Lord, for I have called upon thee. Let the wicked be ashamed, and be brought down to hell.
28 Psalms 48:15
They are laid in hell like sheep: death shall feed upon them. And the just shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their help shall decay in hell from their glory.
. . . all for Jesus+
J
Jesus_123
Guest
+(continuation of previous post)
*29 Psalms 48:16
But God will redeem my soul from the hand of hell, when he shall receive me.
30 Psalms 54:16
Let death come upon them, and let them go down alive into hell. For there is wickedness in their dwellings: in the midst of them.
31 Psalms 85:13
For thy mercy is great towards me: and thou hast delivered my soul out of the lower hell.
32 Psalms 87:4
For my soul is filled with evils: and my life hath drawn nigh to hell.
33 Psalms 88:49
Who is the man that shall live, and not see death: that shall deliver his soul from the hand of hell?
34 Psalms 93:17
Unless the Lord had been my helper, my soul had almost dwelt in hell.
35 Psalms 113:25
The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell.
36 Psalms 114:3
The sorrows of death have encompassed me: and the perils of hell have found me. I met with trouble and sorrow:
37 Psalms 138:8
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.
38 Psalms 140:7
As when the thickness of the earth is broken up upon the ground: Our bones are scattered by the side of hell.
39 Proverbs 1:12
Let us swallow him up alive like hell, and whole as one that goeth down into the pit.
40 Proverbs 2:18
And hath forgotten the covenant of her God: for her house inclineth unto death, and her paths to hell.
41 Proverbs 5:5
Her feet go down into death, and her steps go in as far as hell.
42 Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, reaching even to the inner chambers of death.
43 Proverbs 9:18
And he did not know that giants are there, and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
44 Proverbs 15:11
Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more the hearts of the children of men?
45 Proverbs 15:24
The path of life is above for the wise, that he may decline from the lowest hell.
46 Proverbs 23:14
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.
47 Proverbs 27:20
Hell and destruction are never filled: so the eyes of men are never satisfied.
48 Proverbs 30:16
Hell, and the mouth of the womb, and the earth which is not satisfied with water: and the fire never saith: It is enough.
49 Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell.
50 Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.
But God will redeem my soul from the hand of hell, when he shall receive me.
30 Psalms 54:16
Let death come upon them, and let them go down alive into hell. For there is wickedness in their dwellings: in the midst of them.
31 Psalms 85:13
For thy mercy is great towards me: and thou hast delivered my soul out of the lower hell.
32 Psalms 87:4
For my soul is filled with evils: and my life hath drawn nigh to hell.
33 Psalms 88:49
Who is the man that shall live, and not see death: that shall deliver his soul from the hand of hell?
34 Psalms 93:17
Unless the Lord had been my helper, my soul had almost dwelt in hell.
35 Psalms 113:25
The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell.
36 Psalms 114:3
The sorrows of death have encompassed me: and the perils of hell have found me. I met with trouble and sorrow:
37 Psalms 138:8
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.
38 Psalms 140:7
As when the thickness of the earth is broken up upon the ground: Our bones are scattered by the side of hell.
39 Proverbs 1:12
Let us swallow him up alive like hell, and whole as one that goeth down into the pit.
40 Proverbs 2:18
And hath forgotten the covenant of her God: for her house inclineth unto death, and her paths to hell.
41 Proverbs 5:5
Her feet go down into death, and her steps go in as far as hell.
42 Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, reaching even to the inner chambers of death.
43 Proverbs 9:18
And he did not know that giants are there, and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
44 Proverbs 15:11
Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more the hearts of the children of men?
45 Proverbs 15:24
The path of life is above for the wise, that he may decline from the lowest hell.
46 Proverbs 23:14
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.
47 Proverbs 27:20
Hell and destruction are never filled: so the eyes of men are never satisfied.
48 Proverbs 30:16
Hell, and the mouth of the womb, and the earth which is not satisfied with water: and the fire never saith: It is enough.
49 Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell.
50 Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.
. . . all for Jesus+
*
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes of of course he did not speak English…but he still taught what he taught.
As to what we do know we look to the Sacred Scriptures …Sacred Tradition …to what Church Teaches. We can know various things.
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
I know. But exactly what Jesus meant, why He chose what images He chose, how He expected His audience to understand, these things we cannot know perfectly. I’m only saying that we don’t know much about this except that we do not want to be there.
J
Jesus_123
Guest
. . . all for Jesus+
L
Luigi_Daniele
Guest
If Hell doesn’t exist, the very term mortal sin would have no meaning.
T
thistle
Guest
Are you publicly stating here that the Church teaching about Hell is wrong?
B
Bookcat
Guest
We know plenty. As Jesus and the Church Teaches. And yes we certainly know we do not want to choose that!
B
Bookcat
Guest
- Status