Is it a possibility that we JUMP OUT from Jesus hand and end up in hell? – John 10:28.

[LatinRight]

AskACatholic.com

Quote: “What is Catholic view on predestination?

This is an often confusing and difficult subject to address.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church does teach that the ELECT ARE

PREDESTINED, while concomitantly, free will is respected so that God is not involved

with coercion.

The best way to explain this is that God has foreknowledge of ALL those that would

RESPOND to his gift of self.

While He wills all to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:3), NOT ALL accept Him (also, John 1:11-12).

In addition to this foreknowledge, God also has provided **ALL THE GRACE

NECESSARY **for those to be saved.

In this way, He has DETERMINED their salvation: by INSURING it.

So, in the end, God not only knows who will be saved, He “saw to it” that

they were saved, and respected the free will of those who were not.” End

quote. Emphasize added.

CCC 1994 “…It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a

greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass

away but the salvation and justification of the ELECT . . . will not pass away.” Emphasize added.

I believe the following warning completes the post.

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

God doesn’t want that the reprobates whose names have been taken out from the Book of

life before the foundation of the world to participate in the Eucharist.

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist!

So, in 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND:

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope **YOU WILL FIND OUT **that we have not failed. End quote. Emphasize added.

John 5:24; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS

EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH

to LIFE.” Emphasize added.

1 John 5:13;
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that

you have eternal life.” Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Blessings for everyone,

John 10:28; …

A SUPREMELY IMPORTANT QUESTION

Is it a theological possibility that someone walk away from Jesus and end up in hell

without destroying the omniscience of God and **mess up **the Book of Life?

Continue

chomp…chomp…swallow…gnaw…gulp…

Hey…(chew, chew)…LR…still chewing on that one post of yours… (can’t find a good chewing emo)

Is it possible that those who walk away from Jesus do not destroy the omniscience of God because their names weren’t in the Book of Life in the first place? I mean, He knows who is in there…we don’t.

It’s kindof like the seeds and the sower. The seed on the path, rocky soil, thorny soil all sprouts (well, not on the path)…but only for a time and then gets lost. Only the seed in the good soil lasts. Maybe only the people who are the good soil have their names in the Book of Life in the first place. Maybe the ones who are the path, rocky, or thorny soil…are also those who tragically and freely leave Christ at some point in time. They were with Him for awhile…but they didn’t last. Maybe they never had their names in the Book.

Also, I have a question for you. Why are there several places in the Bible that say someone must “endure until the end to be saved”? Why does anyone who is in the hand of Jesus have to “endure” anything? Why can’t they just coast along, got it made in the shade…nothing…not even death can change their place in Jesus’ hands. So what is the “endure to the end” stuff about? Shouldn’t it just say “relax” you are in Jesus’ hands and that’s all there is to it?

I would appreciate your thoughts on those “endure to the end” verses because the only thing that that sounds like to me is that we have the ability to NOT endure until the end and…I don’t know… at that point…maybe we weren’t the “good soil” that we thought we were.

Thanks.

 

[Nicene]

Why would that effect Gods omniscience?

Rev 3:5 He who conquers shall be clothed like them in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, I will confess his before my Father and before his angels.

Peace and God bless
Nicene

 

[LatinRight]

chomp…chomp…swallow…gnaw…gulp…

Hey…(chew, chew)…LR…still chewing on that one post of yours… (can’t find a good chewing emo)

Is it possible that those who walk away from Jesus do not destroy the omniscience of God because their names weren’t in the Book of Life in the first place? I mean, He knows who is in there…we don’t.

It’s kindof like the seeds and the sower. The seed on the path, rocky soil, thorny soil all sprouts (well, not on the path)…but only for a time and then gets lost. Only the seed in the good soil lasts. Maybe only the people who are the good soil have their names in the Book of Life in the first place. Maybe the ones who are the path, rocky, or thorny soil…are also those who tragically and freely leave Christ at some point in time. They were with Him for awhile…but they didn’t last. Maybe they never had their names in the Book.

Also, I have a question for you. Why are there several places in the Bible that say someone must “endure until the end to be saved”? Why does anyone who is in the hand of Jesus have to “endure” anything? Why can’t they just coast along, got it made in the shade…nothing…not even death can change their place in Jesus’ hands. So what is the “endure to the end” stuff about? Shouldn’t it just say “relax” you are in Jesus’ hands and that’s all there is to it?

I would appreciate your thoughts on those “endure to the end” verses because the only thing that that sounds like to me is that we have the ability to NOT endure until the end and…I don’t know… at that point…maybe we weren’t the “good soil” that we thought we were.

Thanks.

Blessings Bestil Andno,

The will of God is that everyone saved, but not everyone wants to be saved and God respects that.

Before the foundation of the world God made His election according to His foreknowledge.

1. THE BOOK OF LIFE

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO

ERASURES.” End quote Emphasize added.

God has completed the Book of Life **before the foundation of the word **by taking out

the names of the reprobates.

When the Book of Life was completed before the foundation of the world,

not even one name left in it from those who will end up in hell.

From the completion of the Book of Life:

“The book of life is a list which contains the names of **ALL THE ELECT **

and admits neither ADDITIONS no ERASURES.”

When the Book of Life was completed, made the future population of the word for two

separate groups:

a. All the elect, predestined to Heaven and they are also the members of the Body of Christ.

b. All the reprobates, their destiny is in hell.

If God would left some names, even one, in the Book of Life, who will end up in hell, that

would be **God’s MISTAKE **and that mistake would destroy God’s omniscience.

To understand the Book of Life, we must clearly understand.

There are two distinct groups of people in the world today:

a. The ELECT of God, their names stands written in the Book of Life.

They are predestined to Heaven. – They make up the Body of Christ and they ALL end up in Heaven.

b. The REPROBATES whose names for their vehement rejection of God and His grace

taken out from the Book of life. – They ALL end up in hell.

Every member of the entire human race is a member one of the two groups. – There is no

exception and there is no middle ground. One or the other.

If someone understand the two above separate groups, understand the election of God,

His predestination to Heaven and understand the Body of Christ.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Our destiny (heaven or hell) is IRREVOCABLY FIXED from the point of the election of God and

His predestination to Heaven, and His completion of the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

The way our election is done is described in:THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number

of the elect, but also the individuals with their names and their entire career on earth,

should be present before the Divine mind from all eternity. End quote Emphasize added.

CCC 600 “To God, ALL MOMENTS of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he

establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free

response to his grace.” End quote Emphasize added.

ENDURE TO THE END:

2 Cor.5:20; “Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us; …”

We have to endure to the end because we do the work of Christ on earth.

When we are new Christians we are like children, so we have to have a lot of prompting

and teaching to grow to be strong Christians and to do the work of Christ.

This promptings our corrections and warnings makes us grow up.

Because we need prompting etc. do not mean we can lose our salvation.

How could we lose our salvation when our name stands written in the Book of Life and we

have been predestined to heaven before the foundation of the world. – I speaking as we

are among the ELECT of God bat we have to do the test individually to find that out. – 2 Cor.13:5-6; for

example: John 5:24; 1 John 5:13.

The key to understand:

The foundation of our economy of salvation is THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

Unless we clearly understand **THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the

elect** we cannot really understand the way God saves us.

We must clearly understand, there are two groups of people in the world:

a. The Elect of God. – Cannot lose their salvation.

b. The reprobates. – Cannot be saved.

If even one ELECT of God would lose his/her salvation that would instantly destroy the omniscience of God.

In other hand:

How could a reprobate saved when his name is not in the Book of Life and not predestined to Heaven.

If a reprobate would die in the state of grace would end up in Heaven and that would

destroy the omniscience of God.

Furthermore, the reason that they are reprobates because of their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Quote: “Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number

of the elect, but also the individuals with their names and their entire career on earth,

should be present before the Divine mind from all eternity. End quote Emphasize added.

I know you are probably getting impatient with me. I’m not really following I don’t think. Predestination is a difficult concept for me that I haven’t really studied.

From the quote above, though, I do not see how God’s omniscience is effected at all if people, while on earth, choose to love Him or choose not to.

And I don’t see how it effects His omniscience to know the ones who will change their minds and have a sortof “death-bed” conversion or a falling away.

And I don’t see how that has to effect the Book of Life because only He knows who is written in that Book…we don’t. So I don’t see how people who have a “death-bed” conversion could not have had their names written in from the foundations of the world…and some who choose to leave Him (or jump out of His hand) maybe never did have their names written in the Book.

I might be wrong but you seem to be assuming that people who accept Jesus Christ must have their names written in the Book. But only God knows who is and isn’t and if they apostatize later in life…maybe they weren’t written in the book. That seems like at least a possibility to me.

ENDURE TO THE END:

2 Cor.5:20; “Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us; …”

We have to endure to the end because we do the work of Christ on earth.

If you would like to comment on “enduring to the end” I would prefer you stayed with original context.

Maybe you could comment on: Matt: 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Mark 13:13 or 2 Tim. 2:12?

I think your interpretation that we have to endure to the end because we work for Christ…well, might be true…but I’m not sure that that is the best interpretation. (Enduring to the end means growing up as a Christian?) 2 Cor. 5:20 doesn’t even say anything about enduring. How about sticking with the passages that do for now at least? Could you comment on those?

And what happens if we do not endure to end? Will we still be saved?

Because we need prompting etc. do not mean we can lose our salvation.

Please comment on a verse that tells us to “endure to the end”. I really don’t see “prompting” in any of them.

How could we lose our salvation when our name stands written in the Book of Life and we

have been predestined to heaven before the foundation of the world. – I speaking as we

are among the ELECT of God bat we have to do the test individually to find that out. – 2 Cor.13:5-6; for

example: John 5:24; 1 John 5:13.

If even one ELECT of God would lose his/her salvation that would instantly destroy the omniscience of God.

Even if I grant you that, only God knows who the ELECT are. Salvation is done on an individual basis. I don’t see how we can say “That ELECT dude lost his salvation.” Maybe he appeared to be part of the ELECT to us…but really never was.

In other hand:

How could a reprobate saved when his name is not in the Book of Life and not predestined to Heaven.

Only God knows whose name is written in the Book. We can only hope that our names are in there…is there somewhere that says we know for certain that our names are there? It could be…I just don’t recall.

If a reprobate would die in the state of grace would end up in Heaven and that would

destroy the omniscience of God.

Again, I don’t see why. God knew that the person we are calling a reprobate really wasn’t a reprobate after all. And He knew it. We didn’t.

Finally, could you explain what Jesus meant in the parable of the seed and the sower?

Thanks and Peace.

BA

 

[Bestil_Andno]

How could we lose our salvation when our name stands written in the Book of Life and we

have been predestined to heaven before the foundation of the world. – I speaking as we

are among the ELECT of God bat we have to do the test individually to find that out. – 2 Cor.13:5-6; for

example: John 5:24; 1 John 5:13.

With all due respect, this looks like “selective scripturing” to me. Yes, we have to believe to obtain eternal life. Yes we can have confidence (“know”) that we are saved, etc.

And we cannot ignore all of the verses that mention things like “being cut off”, the need to endure to the end, forgiving others or else we won’t be forgiven ourselves, etc.

What we don’t know is IF we ourselves will or will not be cut off, will or will not endure to the end, will or will not always forgive others when we are supposed to.

We can be assured of God’s role in our salvation. We cannot be assured of ours.

By the way, this might be the main question for me right now:

How do we know that our name stands written in the Book of Life?

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

How could we lose our salvation when our name stands written in the Book of Life and we

have been predestined to heaven before the foundation of the world. – I speaking as we

are among the ELECT of God bat we have to do the test individually to find that out. – 2 Cor.13:5-6; for

example: John 5:24; 1 John 5:13.

With all due respect, this looks like “selective scripturing” to me. Yes, we have to believe to obtain eternal life. Yes we can have confidence (“know”) that we are saved, etc.

And we cannot ignore all of the verses that mention things like “being cut off”, the need to endure to the end, forgiving others or else we won’t be forgiven ourselves, etc.

What we don’t know is IF we ourselves will or will not be cut off, will or will not endure to the end, will or will not always forgive others when we are supposed to.

We can be assured of God’s role in our salvation. We cannot be assured of ours.

By the way, this might be the main question for me right now:

How do we know that our name stands written in the Book of Life?

WE have to do the test individually to find that out? Ok, that sounds like a really rotten system to me…speaking for myself, I’m not that reliable…I’m not infallible…I could conclude that I am…and then be wrong. Or vice versa.

And I don’t see that that is what the verses you mentioned above say. Could you clarify what you mean by “we have to test individually to find out” (I’m assuming you mean test ourselves and not other people).

Peace.

 

[LatinRight]

I know you are probably getting impatient with me. I’m not really following I don’t think. Predestination is a difficult concept for me that I haven’t really studied.

From the quote above, though, I do not see how God’s omniscience is effected at all if people, while on earth, choose to love Him or choose not to.

And I don’t see how it effects His omniscience to know the ones who will change their minds and have a sortof “death-bed” conversion or a falling away.

Blessings Bestil Andno,

Oh no I would NEVER be impatient. This is all part of our Christian work.

Later I will answer the rest of the questions as well.
Only I need time to do it and I will answer.

I agree, from the above quote could not see that the omniscience of Good could be effected.

The following quote explains it.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

**MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge **of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits **NEITHER ADDITIONS NO

ERASURES.**

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote

Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[porthos11]

I think many people make this harder than it need be with regard to predestination. Does God know and has he always known? Yes. Does that mean he forces people to accept or not accept him? Nope.

Those are two very different things. One is knowing something, the other is acting upon it. Forcing someone to love or not love you isn’t love, It’s the opposite of love, coercion. God gave us free will to accept, not accept, deny, or jump. Just as Mary’s Fiat. That doesn’t mean he forced us to do any of the above, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t know. He offers salvation to everyone.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Predestination IS hard, one of the most difficult mysteries to grasp,and we ought not to underestimate its difficulty. And yet we must, because predestination is Catholic teaching, and part of the deposit of faith.

The dogma of predestination states that from all eternity, God has ordained certain souls to eternal blessedness.

The key there is ordained. Predestination is not merely foreknowledge; God has actively decreed that the elect will be saved. It is an act of Providence, as as with anything divine, it is an immutable decree. It is therefore more than just mere knowledge. Many Catholic armchair apologists stop at foreknowledge, and their explanation of predestination is therefore incomplete, and potentially heretical.

However, it is also just as much a dogma of faith that man has free will.

It is also further a dogma of faith that God desires the salvation of all. From here, we logically infer the concept of sufficient grace, i.e. we must believe that God gives all men the grace they need to be saved.

How all these are reconciled the Church has not ruled; she only demands that all these be accounted for. Therefore, we cannot deny man’s free will. We also cannot deny the universal desire for salvation, for that would effectively be heretical double predestination. We cannot deny God’s active decree (in addition to foreknowledge) for that denies God’s sovereignty. I personally lean toward the Molinist school of thought on this matter as it provides a reasonable explanation of predestination, reprobation, grace, merit and free will.

 

[porthos11]

Blessings Bestil Andno,

Oh no I would NEVER be impatient. This is all part of our Christian work.

Later I will answer the rest of the questions as well.
Only I need time to do it and I will answer.

I agree, from the above quote could not see that the omniscience of Good could be effected.

The following quote explains it.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

**MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge **of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits **NEITHER ADDITIONS NO

ERASURES.**

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote

Emphasize added.

Blessings

LatinRight

I actually follow the gist of your posts, and generally agree. We often don’t realize that the Catholic theology of salvation does include a certain form of “once saved always saved”, i.e. if you’re of the elect, you are sure to get to heaven, and if you are reprobate, you are most certainly going to hell.

But yes, we must ensure that we are not presumptuous, for the Catholic teaching is that the number of the elect (and the reprobate) are both: (1) immutable; and (2) unknown. And further, the teaching of the Church is that God always respects man’s free will, so we are not free from the “if I’m reprobate I might as well not try to live a good life” because we don’t know that we’re actually reprobate. If one is reprobate, it will be because if his free choices too, even if at the same time, the reprobation is part of God’s eternal decree (unlike heretical double predestination, the Catholic teaching of reprobation is always in light of foreseen demerits/sins, not ante praevisa demerita.)

 

[Bestil_Andno]

I actually follow the gist of your posts, and generally agree. We often don’t realize that the Catholic theology of salvation does include a certain form of “once saved always saved”, i.e. if you’re of the elect, you are sure to get to heaven, and if you are reprobate, you are most certainly going to hell.

But yes, we must ensure that we are not presumptuous, for the Catholic teaching is that the number of the elect (and the reprobate) are both: (1) immutable; and (2) unknown. And further, the teaching of the Church is that God always respects man’s free will, so we are not free from the “if I’m reprobate I might as well not try to live a good life” because we don’t know that we’re actually reprobate. If one is reprobate, it will be because if his free choices too, even if at the same time, the reprobation is part of God’s eternal decree (unlike heretical double predestination, the Catholic teaching of reprobation is always in light of foreseen demerits/sins, not ante praevisa demerita.)

Thanks for both of your posts, porthos. I kindof am starting to understand a little bit.
Thanks for your posts too, LR. I’m thinking maybe I’m not ready to study predestination. It’s kindof confusing to me and it kindof makes my head hurt. Think I’ll just watch and listen for awhile.

God bless.

 

[LatinRight]

Why would that effect Gods omniscience?

Rev 3:5 He who conquers shall be clothed like them in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, I will confess his before my Father and before his angels.

Peace and God bless
Nicene

Blessings Nicene,

To know the REASON we have to see it in the **context **of the:

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

and in the **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

**MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge **of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote Emphasize added.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE TEACHING

1. God has completed the Book of Life **before the foundation of the world **by taking out the

names of the reprobates.

1. From this point on the Book of life is a list which contains the names of ALL THE

ELECT and admits neither ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

1. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL

or that one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have

been MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

1. Being in the Body of Christ is a **PERMANENT BOND **which is not lost by reason of **ANY

ACT **or fact of DEFECTION.

We must clearly understand, there are** two groups **of people in the world:

a. The ELECT of God. – Cannot lose their salvation.

If even one ELECT of God would lose his/her salvation that would instantly destroy the omniscience of God.

b. The REPROBATES. – **Cannot **be saved.

How could a reprobate saved when his name is not in the Book of Life and not predestined to Heaven.

If a reprobate would die in the state of grace would end up in Heaven and that would DESTROY the omniscience of God.

Furthermore, the reason that they are reprobates because of their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

Now the key to understand your question Nicene:

Why would that effects the omniscience of God?

When the Scripture speaks about the Book of Life, for our understanding, **it is written in

our chronological order,** like the cancellation from the Book of Life happen now or in the future.

But with the timing of God this is not the case.

God has completed the Book of Life by taking out the names of the reprobates BEFORE

THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

From that point on, the Book of life is a list which contains the names of ALL THE ELECT

and admits neither ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

If even the name of one ELECT would have to taken out from the Book of Life now or in

the future that would mean:

1. God made a mistake in His ELECTION.
2. God made a mistake by left his name in the Book of Life.
3. God made a mistake to predestined him to Heaven.
4. God made a mistake to baptized him into the Body of Christ.

You see Nicene, if God would left even one name of someone in the Book of Life who will end up in hell that would DESTROY His omniscience.

Blessing

LatinRight

 

[porthos11]

Thanks for both of your posts, porthos. I kindof am starting to understand a little bit.
Thanks for your posts too, LR. I’m thinking maybe I’m not ready to study predestination. It’s kindof confusing to me and it kindof makes my head hurt. Think I’ll just watch and listen for awhile.

God bless.

It is challenging, yes. The difficulty (and the heresies surrounding it) has caused some Catholics to water it down or abandon predestination entirely, failing to realize that predestination is a Catholic teaching and must be accepted. “Makes my head hurt” is an apt description for those still starting out.

But remembering that the following are non-negotiables, and accepting them as fact first, despite any surface contradiction (key word=“surface”), it can be an extremely stimulating study. The non-negotiables are these:

1. 
   *]From eternity, God has predestined certain souls to salvation (predestination).
   *]From eternity, in light of foreseen demerits, God has ordained certain souls to damnation (reprobation; predestination to hell without consideration of foreseen demerits is heretical double-predestination and is condemned).
   *]Both predestination and reprobation are decreed, not merely foreknown. God ensures these decrees are secured (denial of this is a denial of divine providence).
   *]The number of the predestined and the reprobate are both unknown and immutable (contrast to evangelical once-saved-always saved; we do not know the state of our being of the elect).
   *]God desires the salvation of all (denial is heretical double-predestination and limited atonement)
   *]God gives sufficient grace to all that they may be saved (contracted to double-predestination)
   *]God has given man free will, i.e. the freedom to respond to or reject this saving grace (contrast with total depavity).
   
   How all these mesh, the Church has not defined, allowing multiple and different schools of thought to flourish while remaining acceptable for Catholics to hold.

 

[steve_b]

Blessings for everyone,

John 10:28; …

A SUPREMELY IMPORTANT QUESTION

Is it a theological possibility that someone walk away from Jesus and end up in hell

without destroying the omniscience of God and **mess up **the Book of Life?

1. THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient. End quote. Emphasize added.

1. THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES. End quote. Emphasize added.

1. THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote: “The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasize added.

1. **PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

Quote: **It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote. Emphasize added.

1. THE SRIPTURE INFALLIBLE AFFIRMS

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

Could anyone please explain to me, how can anyone walk away from Jesus and end up in

hell, without destroying the omniscience of God and mess up the Book of life?

God knows in advance for all time, what everyone who ever lives, is going to choose. Our Response to grace given in advance. THAT is what He foreknows,** THAT** is what He predestined.

It’s not like Adam sins or Judas betrays Jesus etc etc and God says oh shoot I wasn’t expecting THAT! :doh2:time for plan B. He knew what they will choose before He created everything.

God didn’t force Adam to sin or Judas to betray Jesus then hang himself. God saw all that in advance, He saw their choices in advance and THAT He predestines. WE don’t know what WE are going to do down to the last second of life, but God knows in advance what WE will do.

Unless told specifically by God, no one knows if they are in the book of life, But God knows before creation who is there…

as an aside, To be predestined for hell regardless of your choices is “double predestination” which is a heresy

A few articles etc
Predestined for Freedom
Predestination
Are You Predestined?
Truth and Consequences

 

[porthos11]

God knows in advance for all time, what everyone who ever lives, is going to choose. Our Response to grace given in advance. THAT is what He foreknows,** THAT** is what He predestined.

It’s more than merely foreknowledge. Predestination is also a decree and God ensures that that decree is fulfilled.

If one goes with the Thomists, God decrees from all eternity that Steve is to be saved. Since God can foresee how Steve will respond to graces, he will bestow on Steve those graces necessary to ensure the divine decree is fulfilled. This is predestination ante praevisa merita, i.e. before/without consideration of foreseen merits. The order of intention (glory-grace) is inverse to the order of execution (grace-glory).

If one goes with the Molinists, God uses his middle knowledge to see how each person will respond to various orders of grace, and from eternity, lays out a fixed, immutable order of grace. Those he foresees as responding to grace, he predestines to glory, and those he foresees as rejecting, he predestines to hell. This is predestination post praevisa merita, i.e. in consideration of foreseen merits, and the order of intention (grace-glory) coincides with the order of execution (grace-glory).

In both cases, God does not merely foreknow; he actively ordains the order of grace to actually secure the salvation of the elect, and in the Thomistic school, foreknowledge isn’t even a factor when God determines that any given soul will be saved (it does factor in in the Molinist school).

I tend towards Molinist thought because it has a sound explanation for the mystery of reprobation. I cannot find a sufficiently good Thomist counterpart to reprobation because it effectively equates Calvinistic double-predestination.

 

[steve_b]

It’s more than merely foreknowledge. Predestination is also a decree and God ensures that that decree is fulfilled.

If one goes with the Thomists, God decrees from all eternity that Steve is to be saved. Since God can foresee how Steve will respond to graces, he will bestow on Steve those graces necessary to ensure the divine decree is fulfilled. This is predestination ante praevisa merita, i.e. before/without consideration of foreseen merits. The order of intention (glory-grace) is inverse to the order of execution (grace-glory).

If one goes with the Molinists, God uses his middle knowledge to see how each person will respond to various orders of grace, and from eternity, lays out a fixed, immutable order of grace. Those he foresees as responding to grace, he predestines to glory, and those he foresees as rejecting, he predestines to hell. This is predestination post praevisa merita, i.e. in consideration of foreseen merits, and the order of intention (grace-glory) coincides with the order of execution (grace-glory).

In both cases, God does not merely foreknow; he actively ordains the order of grace to actually secure the salvation of the elect, and in the Thomistic school, foreknowledge isn’t even a factor when God determines that any given soul will be saved (it does factor in in the Molinist school).

I tend towards Molinist thought because it has a sound explanation for the mystery of reprobation. I cannot find a sufficiently good Thomist counterpart to reprobation because it effectively equates Calvinistic double-predestination.

As my 1st link noted

(all emphasis mine)

"To be sure: there is a certain mystery involved in God’s predestined plan. We could ask many unanswerable questions. For example, why does God give more grace to some than others (see Rom 12:6, 1 Pt 4:10)? Why does God allow someone to be born and live **knowing **they will eventually choose to reject him and go to hell (see Rom 9:22)? This is precisely what Paul is talking about when he refers to “vessels of wrath made for destruction” (Rom 9:22).
We could go on. Why doesn’t God give the one rejecting him more grace? It may be true that if God had given more grace to someone in hell, he would have made it to heaven. The only response to questions like these truly is: “But who are you, a man, to answer back to God?” However, he errs who takes this to the point of turning God into an unjust God. Even if some are given more grace than others, everyone is given sufficient grace to be saved. That is clear in Scripture, as Titus 2:11 tells us: “the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men " If God did not give a man sufficient grace to be saved, then God would truly be unjust in condemning him. There is no mystery there at all.” Predestined for Freedom

Yet people go to hell. It looks like more go there than to heaven Mt 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few

 

[LatinRight]

I think the very existence of the NT epistles is a testament that we can indeed “jump out” of His Hands.
Read Hb 6:4-6. Paul writes of “partakers of the Holy Spirit” who have tasted of God’s Power, only to “have fallen away”. He doesn’t make any indication here that they weren’t “true” believers, rather they were believers who “tasted the heavenly gift” [they were saved] and now are not saved. Paul shows us again in Galatians 5:4 that in seeking to be justified by the law, the Christians he is writing to can be “severed from Christ” and those Galatians have “fallen from grace”. These were Christians who received the Word and the Spirit (Gal 3:1; 4:4-9)) and were “running well the race” (Gal 5:7) and THEN were tempted away from truth and toward going back to circumcision. They were Christians on the Vine of Christ, and then “severed” themselves from the Vine that they were truly attached to.

“19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” (Rom 11:19-23)

Blessings Ahs,

I have to admit in the past I did believe, the ELECT of God can lose their salvation.

I even used the same Bible verses and even more for attempt to prove the ELECT can lose their salvation.

At that time I didn’t know, that “cat off,” (taken out the names of the reprobates) from the

Book of Life has happened before the creation of the world and from that point on the

Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

When I read first time THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect at that time I realized:

a. The Book of Life completed before the foundation of the world.

b. According to THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect, the teaching of the Once Saved Always Saved is correct.

Thanks to the Catholic Church teaching on the economy of salvation, now I know the truth.

You may have further understanding on salvation, if you read the following Church

teaching and the Scripture on the salvation of the ELECT.

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Quote; “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

**MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge **of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

“God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.” End quote Emphasize added.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote Emphasize added.

THE SRIPTURE INFALLIBLE AFFIRMS

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS

ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA**

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006

Paragraph 7.

**It remains CLEAR, in ANY EVENT, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the

Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an

ONTOLOGICAL and PERMANENT BOND which is not lost by reason of ANY ACT or fact

of DEFECTION**. End quote Emphasize added.

THE SRIPTURE INFALLIBLE AFFIRMS

Rom.8:29-30; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For those whom He foreknew He also PREDESTINED … And those whom He predestined He also CALLED;

Eph.2:8;
“For by grace you have been saved … it is the GIFT of God.”

Rom.11:29;
“For the GIFTS and the CALL of God are IRREVOCABLE.”

Blessings

LatinRight

As an aside,

What isn’t said in that document

on this side of eternity, unless God informs one personally, who specifically is and who is not in the book of life (the elect), then that information in that book is a mystery for us.

If one DID know that information upfront, one wouldn’t need faith etc etc. That’s why even Paul said he works out his salvation in fear and trembling.

Re: Baptism, the document confirms what we all know, that it is a permanent sacrament. It can’t be lost, it can’t be repeated. That doesn’t mean however, one who is baptized can’t on their own, separate themselves from the Catholic Church. And the document doesn’t go into what happens for that person.