Is it a problem when dalmatics begin to look just like chasubles?

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Is it a problem when deacon’s dalmatics begin to look just like priestly chasubles? In my parish the deacons wear lavish dalamtics (which they personally own) which are extremely difficult to distinguish from chasubles. Sometimes it’s possible when they hoist the Evangeliary or motion for the faithful to stand by raising their arms. Otherwise they are indistinguishable from fancy chasubles. I wonder if this is on purpose?
 
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Dalmatics have sleeves, chasubles do not.

Is your complaint the the Deacon’s dalmatic is more ornate than the Priest’s chasuble?

If it is owned by the Deacon, maybe they were gifts?

I guess,in the grand scheme of things, is this really a big deal?
 
Duesenberg said:
Is it a problem when deacon’s dalmatics begin to look just like priestly chasubles? In my parish the deacons wear lavish chasubles (which they personally own) which are extremely difficult to distinguish from cassocks. Sometimes it’s possible when they hoist the Evangeliary or motion for the faithful to stand by raising their arms. Otherwise they are indistinguishable from fancy chasubles. I wonder if this is on purpose?
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Your terms are confusing. Deacons wear dalmatics, as you said at the beginning; they do not wear chasubles, as you said in your second sentence. It is no problem to distinguish dalmatics - or chasubles for that matter - from cassocks, which are plain, usually black, and quite easy to distinguish from a colored vestment, especially a “lavish” one. If your “on purpose” comment is meant to be taken as a deliberate attempt to blur the priestly vs. diaconal roles, I believe you are mistaken. Especially for major liturgies, there is a feeling that vestment sets should match. The deacons I know had to buy their own dalmatics and typically those are the liturgically correct color but don’t match a parish’s various chasubles. Sometimes a large parish or cathedral parish will have a white / gold vest,ENT set for celebrant and deacon for occasions such as Christmas or Easter.
 
No, I don’t think it is on purpose (other than the matching mentioned by another poster) and I don’t think it is a problem. If a deacon is wearing the appropriate liturgical garment, regardless of its similarity to another liturgical garment, it is fine. If there is confusion, one can always watch what is happening in the Mass to figure out who is the deacon and who is the priest.
 
Proverbs said:
Is your complaint the the Deacon’s dalmatic is more ornate than the Priest’s chasuble?
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Nope. It’s because they are largely indistinguishable. Unless their arms are elevated, any differences cannot be seen.

The are cut very full, with big cowl necks and the sleeves just “blend in” to the body of the dalmatic.
 
This is sort of what I’m talking about:


I would prefer that dalmatics be immediately recognizable as dalmatics:
 
Both of those dalmatics are quite nice and neither one seems lavish.
 
Mi_Rose said:
Both of those dalmatics are quite nice and neither one seems lavish.
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No, neither are lavish, but that’s not what I asked about. The one on the top looks a great deal like a chasuble. The one on the bottom is immediately recognizable as a deacon’s dalmatic.
 
I guess I don’t see a problem. They are both dalmatics, one is just a little more tailored than the other. Maybe you would prefer just an alb
& stole instead?
 
The original post did say lavish so that is where I went. I like them both.My husband has one very similar to the one you like but wore a stole and alb today because it was unseasonably warm.
 
Duesenberg said:
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Mi_Rose:
Both of those dalmatics are quite nice and neither one seems lavish.
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No, neither are lavish, but that’s not what I asked about. The one on the top looks a great deal like a chasuble. The one on the bottom is immediately recognizable as a deacon’s dalmatic.
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Your concern - and prefence - seems to be the “ladder” design which was a characteristic of dalmatics and tunicles used in Solemn High Masses before the Council and today in solemn EF liturgies. I have personally never seen the “ladder” style dalmatic used in the OF, nor do I believe there is anything mandating or preferring that design over ones matching the priestly chasuble set. I’m still unsure of your concern with a dalmatic looking like the priest’s chasuble; what do you see as the problem?
 
It’s rare that I see a dalmatic at all. Most of the deacons I see wear an alb and a stole. The deacons I know have to buy their own dalmatics rather than using something belonging to the parish, so if they have them at all they start with one and then sometime later get one in a different color. It takes time to build up a full collection.
 
Mi_Rose said:
The original post did say lavish so that is where I went. I like them both.My husband has one very similar to the one you like but wore a stole and alb today because it was unseasonably warm.
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The title of this thread is: "Is it a problem when dalmatics begin to look just like chasubles?"

Following is what I posted (verbatim):
Duesenberg said:
Is it a problem when deacon’s dalmatics begin to look just like priestly chasubles? In my parish the deacons wear lavish dalamtics (which they personally own) which are extremely difficult to distinguish from chasubles. Sometimes it’s possible when they hoist the Evangeliary or motion for the faithful to stand by raising their arms. Otherwise they are indistinguishable from fancy chasubles. I wonder if this is on purpose?
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Mattapoisett64 said:
Your concern - and prefence - seems to be the “ladder” design which was a characteristic of dalmatics and tunicles used in Solemn High Masses before the Council and today in solemn EF liturgies. I have personally never seen the “ladder” style dalmatic used in the OF, nor do I believe there is anything mandating or preferring that design over ones matching the priestly chasuble set. I’m still unsure of your concern with a dalmatic looking like the priest’s chasuble; what do you see as the problem?
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The Church does not define what sort of pattern or decoration or embroidery can or cannot be on a dalmatic (other than to say that it must be Christian and not secular symbols). Only the overall shape is defined (sort of).

And come to think of it, I’m not sure if even the shape is actually defined in any authoritative document of the universal Church. We might have some clarifications from Bishop Conferences.

The liturgical laws simply call for a dalmatic and the understanding is “when we say dalmatic, we mean what we have always meant.”
 
Duesenberg said:
Is it a problem when deacon’s dalmatics begin to look just like priestly chasubles? In my parish the deacons wear lavish dalamtics (which they personally own) which are extremely difficult to distinguish from chasubles. Sometimes it’s possible when they hoist the Evangeliary or motion for the faithful to stand by raising their arms. Otherwise they are indistinguishable from fancy chasubles. I wonder if this is on purpose?
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Quite frankly, my response as a priest is to ask “so what?”

It doesn’t matter if the deacon is wearing a dalmatic that might look like a chasuble from a distance or from certain angles.

The priest performs his ministry at Mass. The deacon performs his ministry at Mass. So long as this is done, there’s no possibility of confusing the two orders.

Sacred vestments really should match each other. If, for example, the priest and deacon are wearing two different shades of green, or 2 different shades of violet, this looks awkward. The more they resemble each other, the more they match and look like they belong together—so long as each one is indeed wearing the proper shape vestment.

I just don’t see how what you’re describing is, in any way, a problem. I don’t see it.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
It’s rare that I see a dalmatic at all. Most of the deacons I see wear an alb and a stole. The deacons I know have to buy their own dalmatics rather than using something belonging to the parish, so if they have them at all they start with one and then sometime later get one in a different color. It takes time to build up a full collection.
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They just don’t know where to shop.

Seriously.

U.S. vestment suppliers charge outrageous prices for vestments, whether for priests or deacons.

Suppliers in Poland and India make very nice vestments indeed; and charge about 1/10 the price as the US stores for comparable designs.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
It’s rare that I see a dalmatic at all. Most of the deacons I see wear an alb and a stole. The deacons I know have to buy their own dalmatics rather than using something belonging to the parish, so if they have them at all they start with one and then sometime later get one in a different color. It takes time to build up a full collection.
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www.ebay.com fairly high quality gear for not much money.
 
I think my parish has two sets of matching chasubles and dalmatics: white and green. Since they are Gothic chasubles it IS very difficult to tell the difference.

But as others have suggested, it doesn’t seem like it really matters. Those of us who belong to the parish know who our priests and deacons are. If an occasional visitor is confused, so what? Our deacons are not going to pretend to hear confessions or give the last rites.
 
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I just do not understand how anyone could be confused about who is the priest and who is the deacon at Mass.

The priest is the one who begins the Mass with “In the Name of the Father…”

From that moment onward, everyone knows which one is the priest.

The priest is the one saying and doing the priest parts of the Mass.

The deacon is the one saying and doing the deacon parts of the Mass.

How, for Pete’s sake, can anyone not know the difference?
 
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