Is it a sin if I didn't know?

[ptisme]

**Douay-Rheims: **Hail, full of grace

**Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition: **Hail, full of grace

Msgr. Knox Bible - Hail, full of grace

The original translation was full of grace but the modern translation is less accurate. Do you understand this to be the case?

 

[ptisme]

Well I asked him what he thought of the word “all” as Matthew uses it in the story of John the Baptist and I haven’t heard back… That’s usually how these things go with us it seems

 

[Ad_Orientem]

The original translation was full of grace but the modern translation is less accurate. Do you understand this to be the case?

I’m not a Bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but “Hail, favored one!” (NAB) is a departure from the traditional language of the Church. It rather resembles the translations of our separated brethren, who do not believe in our Lady’s privileges.

 

[spockrates]

yeah, I think I covered that with him. My first point was to prove that there is no verse in the bible that suggest she wasn’t free of sin. He pointed to Romans 3:23 and I gave him examples to that exception. Now what I need is biblical proof that she was free of sin. I think I found that as well with the whole meaning of “full of Grace”.
thanks!

OK. But be aware your Fundamentalist friend might counter with this:

17 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3)

He might ask if you think Paul was asking God to make other Christians full of grace, too.

 

[Della]

OK. But be aware your Fundamentalist friend might counter with this:

17 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3)

He might ask if you think Paul was asking God to make other Christians full of grace, too.

There is a vast difference between the possibility of being filled with grace and actually being full of grace. St. Paul writes that “may be filled” not that they already were “filled with grace.” It’s a prayer that they might attain to fhe fullness of grace, not that they already possessed it.

The Archangel Gabriel addressed Mary, not by her given name, but by the appellation: “full of grace.” He saw that the fullness of God’s grace already had full possession of her: mind, body and soul. No need for Mary to try to attain that which God had already bestowed on her.

 

[spockrates]

There is a vast difference between the possibility of being filled with grace and actually being full of grace. St. Paul writes that “may be filled” not that they already were “filled with grace.” It’s a prayer that they might attain to fhe fullness of grace, not that they already possessed it.

Agreed.

The Archangel Gabriel addressed Mary, not by her given name, but by the appellation: “full of grace.” He saw that the fullness of God’s grace already had full possession of her: mind, body and soul. No need for Mary to try to attain that which God had already bestowed on her.

Also agreed. So Della. Are you thinking no one but Christ and Mary have ever been filled with grace? Or do you think some saints have received such filling?

 

[Della]

Agreed.

Also agreed. So Della. Are you thinking no one but Christ and Mary have ever been filled with grace? Or do you think some saints have received such filling?

Certainly. St. Stephen was at the time of his martyrdom, and so was St. Therese of Lisieux–to give a more recent example. But both attained it by completely surrendering their lives to Christ. Something most of us simply don’t do. However, neither was conceived full of grace as was Our Lord–for obvious reasons, and Mary because she was preserved free from the stain of original sin. St. John the Baptist was born free of sin, as well, but in his case that was conferred on him in the womb by the Infant Christ when Mary visited Elisabeth. As she greeted Mary she was filled with the Holy Spirit. This is why we celebrate only three birthdays in the Church–that of Jesus, Mary and St. John the Baptist.

 

[spockrates]

Certainly. St. Stephen was at the time of his martyrdom, and so was St. Therese of Lisieux–to give a more recent example. But both attained it by completely surrendering their lives to Christ. Something most of us simply don’t do. However, neither was conceived full of grace as was Our Lord–for obvious reasons, and Mary because she was preserved free from the stain of original sin. St. John the Baptist was born free of sin, as well, but in his case that was conferred on him in the womb by the Infant Christ when Mary visited Elisabeth. As she greeted Mary she was filled with the Holy Spirit. This is why we celebrate only three birthdays in the Church–that of Jesus, Mary and St. John the Baptist.

Della:

Thanks. Trying to understand. You see, when I read St. Paul’s words,

17 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3)

I think that “to be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God” is the same as being “full of grace”. You see, grace seems to me to be what the fullness of God is. But please explain why I am mistaken.

 

[Della]

Della:

Thanks. Trying to understand. You see, when I read St. Paul’s words,

17 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3)

I think that “to be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God” is the same as being “full of grace”. You see, grace seems to me to be what the fullness of God is. But please explain why I am mistaken.

I have explained, and you wrote that you agreed, that we hope /stirve to be" filled with the measure of all the fullness of God" not that we have it merely because we have been baptized and practice our faith. We always sin and hold back on fully giving ourselves to Christ. Is that being “full of grace?” No, it isn’t. Mary, otoh, was full of grace from the instant of her conception–because God created her to be the Second Eve, who conceived and gave birth to the Second Adam–the new head of the human race taking the place of Adam and Eve who fell through disobedience.

 

[spockrates]

I have explained, and you wrote that you agreed, that we hope /stirve to be" filled with the measure of all the fullness of God" not that we have it merely because we have been baptized and practice our faith. We always sin and hold back on fully giving ourselves to Christ. Is that being “full of grace?” No, it isn’t. Mary, otoh, was full of grace from the instant of her conception–because God created her to be the Second Eve, who conceived and gave birth to the Second Adam–the new head of the human race taking the place of Adam and Eve who fell through disobedience.

Della:

Sorry for my being clear as mud.

While I do agree that we have not been filled to the full measure with the grace of God, I do not agree–at least I’m not yet convinced–that one cannot become so. Catholic Thomists tell me one can indeed become so filled with grace that one does indeed reach a state of sinlessness this side of eternity. Several of the saints reached such a sinless state before death, they reason. While I’m sure I will never in this mortal life do so, I cannot rule out the possibility for some others.

But do you think such impossible?

 

[Della]

Della:

Sorry for my being clear as mud.

While I do agree that we have not been filled to the full measure with the grace of God, I do not agree–at least I’m not yet convinced–that one cannot become so. Catholic Thomists tell me one can indeed become so filled with grace that one does indeed reach a state of sinlessness this side of eternity. Several of the saints reached such a sinless state before death, they reason. While I’m sure I will never in this mortal life do so, I cannot rule out the possibility for some others.

But do you think such impossible?

But I addressed that too, and agreed that indeed we can become holy in this life. I gave examples of this

 

[spockrates]

But I addressed that too, and agreed that indeed we can become holy in this life. I gave examples of this

LOL! My apologies. I thought you said only Mary and Christ were full of grace and sinless. So then, let me see if I finally get what you are saying: Only Mary and Christ were born full of grace and sinless, but Paul was praying that we all become like them in this life. Indeed, with God’s help, you and (as hard as this is for me to believe) even I myself may become sinless like her before we die.

Am I finally understanding?

 

[Della]

LOL! My apologies. I thought you said only Mary and Christ were full of grace and sinless.

No problem.

So then, Let me see if I finally get what you are saying: Only Mary and Christ were born full of grace and sinless, but Paul was praying that we all become like them in this life. Indeed, with God’s help, you and (as hard as this is for me to believe) even I myself may become sinless like her before we die.

Am I finally understanding?

That is possible, yes. I would only say that it is certain that some people have attained the fullness of grace, such as St. Therese of Lisieux, but she would not have put it like that since she would have hurried to say that only God is the final judge of our sins. Still, she knew that she had never committed a mortal sin in her life–something to which she gave God all the credit. In any case, we are to strive for holiness by cooperating with God’s grace as best as we can. I’m not sanguine about my hopes to die full of grace, either, but I do try to keep myself in God’s grace in spite of all my faults and besetting sins.

 

[spockrates]

No problem.

Thanks for your patience.

That is possible, yes. I would only say that it is certain that some people have attained the fullness of grace, such as St. Therese of Lisieux, but she would not have put it like that since she would have hurried to say that only God is the final judge of our sins. Still, she knew that she had never committed a mortal sin in her life–something to which she gave God all the credit. In any case, we are to strive for holiness by cooperating with God’s grace as best as we can. I’m not sanguine about my hopes to die full of grace, either, but I do try to keep myself in God’s grace in spite of all my faults and besetting sins.

I imagine, then we might ask St. Theresa, “Holy Theresa, full of grace, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour if our death.” Do you imagine the same?

 

[Della]

Thanks for your patience.

:tiphat:

I imagine, then we might ask St. Theresa, “Holy Theresa, full of grace, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour if our death.” Do you imagine the same?

The Church has applied the appellation “full of grace” to Mary alone–not to other saints because we cannot know if, at the hour of their deaths, they were full of grace. I used St. Thesese as an example because I believe she did attain to fullness of grace, as I believe others did. But I believe it would be confusing to use “full of grace” as a title/in prayer for any of the saints except Mary. We’re getting in deeper waters here that I care to splash around in. You might want to consult a reliable theologian on this one.

 

[zz912]

Then I stumbled upon Leviticus 5:17: “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lords commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible”. Someone please square me away on this parsing… Thanks.

Lev 5:14 The Lord said to Moses, 15 “If any one commits a breach of faith and sins unwittingly in any of the holy things of the Lord, he shall bring, as his guilt offering to the Lord, a ram without blemish out of the flock, valued by you in shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary; it is a guilt offering. 16 He shall also make restitution for what he has done amiss in the holy thing, and shall add a fifth to it and give it to the priest; and the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering, and he shall be forgiven.

17 “If any one sins, doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity. 18 He shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish out of the flock, valued by you at the price for a guilt offering, and the priest shall make atonement for him for the error which he committed unwittingly, and he shall be forgiven. 19 It is a guilt offering; he is guilty before the Lord.”

In this context, it is about unintentional sinning. There are two avenues for understanding this as I can see, both equally valid. The first is someone who commits a sinful action that they didn’t know was sinful, but should have known. They didn’t take appropriate care to learn God’s commands. The second is if they accidently commit sinful actions of misusing something consecrated to God. Holy things/objects were not to be used for regular use. If someone accidently did this, they have committed sinful behavior, but the requirement is less than for intentional sin.

That’s my understanding on it

 

[spockrates]

Thanks for your patience.

I imagine, then we might ask St. Theresa, “Holy Theresa, full of grace, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour if our death.” Do you imagine the same?

Yes, it seems that on the surface scripture is shallow enough for any kid to have fun splashing around in. Yet to the serious swimmer, it can become quite deep. But it’s not as though we should fear we might drown. We don’t have to be afraid of losing our lives. The only thing we might lose is our ignorance!

My thought is that if we pause before saying any saint other than Mary is full of grace, then we should also pause before saying any saint is “filled to the measure with the fullness of God.” If I had to guess, I would say, “Yes, that might be true.” How about you?

 

[Della]

Yes, it seems that on the surface scripture is shallow enough for any kid to have fun splashing around in. Yet to the serious swimmer, it can become quite deep. But it’s not as though we should fear we might drown. We don’t have to be afraid of losing our lives. The only thing we might lose is our ignorance!

My thought is that if we pause before saying any saint other than Mary is full of grace, then we should also pause before saying any saint is “filled to the measure with the fullness of God.” If I had to guess, I would say, “Yes, that might be true.” How about you?

I’m afraid I only meant that assigning titles to saints, as per your prayer example, is beyond my paygrade–that’s up to the Magisterium. I fully believe that we can be filled with God’s grace and don’t have any problems theologically with it.

 

[spockrates]

I’m afraid I only meant that assigning titles to saints, as per your prayer example, is beyond my paygrade–that’s up to the Magisterium. I fully believe that we can be filled with God’s grace and don’t have any problems theologically with it.

I was thinking the statement, “full of grace,” was a description rather than a title.

But that aside, I believe Mary’s being filled with grace was indeed different from the way other saints were so filled. As you said, she was from birth so filled. Yet other saints did not become filled until much longer after their births. Reminds me of something I once heard a pastor say: “We are all leaky vessels.” While saints can become filled, their sin creates a kind of leaking so that when they sin they are no longer filled–at least not fully.

So one might say to Mary, “Hail Mary, who always was filled, is filled now and ever will be filled, The Lord is with thee.” Or if we do not say such words, perhaps this understanding of them will come to mind when we do.

 

[Della]

I was thinking the statement, “full of grace,” was a description rather than a title.

But that aside, I believe Mary’s being filled with grace was indeed different from the way other saints were so filled. As you said, she was from birth so filled. Yet other saints did not become filled until much longer after their births. Reminds me of something I once heard a pastor say: “We are all leaky vessels.” While saints can become filled, their sin creates a kind of leaking so that when they sin they are no longer filled–at least not fully.

So one might say to Mary, “Hail Mary, who always was filled, is filled now and ever will be filled, The Lord is with thee.” Or if we do not say such words, perhaps this understanding of them will come to mind when we do.

As Spock would say, “Indeed.”