Is it a sin to date a "legally married" person who is not in a Church recognized marriage?

[CentralFLJames]

I tried to get this question answered in the main forum but no one has responded yet.

I need to know if it is a sin to date a Catholic woman who married a non-Catholic man outside the church about 3 years ago and they are now seperated pending final divorce?

Her husband literally secretly moved out on her and her new infant child 8 months ago without any warning while she was at work. She was stunned and after he refused to talk to her she filed for divorce. But it will not be final for 2 more months. I do not believe that The Church even recognizes this marriage.

My question - is it immoral or sinful to date while we wait for a secular court to go through the formality of issuing the final paperwork in a marriage that is abusive and bad and not recognized by The Church? This is a wonderful Catholic woman and her “husband” had done this 3 previous times to her in her past life and she can’t live with the constant threat of abandonment - especially with a new child.

James

 

[Joe_5859]

I think it depends on what your definition of “date” is.

Someone who is more familiar with these things can please correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that, even in the case that you described where an annulment would be a slam dunk, the marriage should still be presumed valid until the Church has issued the declaration of nullity (and the Church doesn’t do that until after the civil divorce has been finalized). As such, any romantic relationship prior to that point might be unwise.

Of course, that doesn’t mean you can’t foster a good friendship until such time as that situation changes.

Have you talked to your priest about the situation? Perhaps he would have some good advice for you.

 

[thistle]

I tried to get this question answered in the main forum but no one has responded yet.

I need to know if it is a sin to date a Catholic woman who married a non-Catholic man outside the church about 3 years ago and they are now seperated pending final divorce?

Her husband literally secretly moved out on her and her new infant child 8 months ago without any warning while she was at work. She was stunned and after he refused to talk to her she filed for divorce. But it will not be final for 2 more months. I do not believe that The Church even recognizes this marriage.

My question - is it immoral or sinful to date while we wait for a secular court to go through the formality of issuing the final paperwork in a marriage that is abusive and bad and not recognized by The Church? This is a wonderful Catholic woman and her “husband” had done this 3 previous times to her in her past life and she can’t live with the constant threat of abandonment - especially with a new child.

James

By “dating” it is implied that there is some romantic attachment or that it might lead to that. As such that would not be allowed if one or both parties “dating” are still married. The Church assumes all marriages to be valid (including non-Catholic ones) until proven otherwise through the annulment process.

 

[jmcrae]

James;

In all cases, including (especially) those that seem “obvious”, wait until the Declaration of Nullity has, in fact, been received, before undertaking any romantic overtures.

After all, the Tribunal could find a letter of permission from the Bishop that was given at the last minute by request of a relative, or that a Catholic priest was present in layman’s garb at the wedding, unbeknownst to the couple themselves, and witnessed the proceedings - thus making the marriage to be perfectly valid.

 

[1ke]

It is not very prudent to ‘date’ someone who is not yet legally divorced.

It is also imprudent to ‘date’ someone who has been so recently married, a new mother, betrayed, and abandoned. She has a lot of issues, and she needs to deal with them before she even thinks about dating.

Also, you state she is a Catholic, yet she married outside the church. That’s a mortal sin. She needs to go to Confession, reconcile with the Church, get some counseling, and put some space between her and the divorce. She also needs to do the paperwork for her lack of form marriage before she is actually free to date.

No matter how sorry for her you feel-- this is a BAD idea.

 

[Seatuck]

I wouldn’t do it. Besides even in the secular world most psychologists suggest waiting at least a year after a divorce before dating.

 

[bbentrup]

It is not very prudent to ‘date’ someone who is not yet legally divorced.

It is also imprudent to ‘date’ someone who has been so recently married, a new mother, betrayed, and abandoned. She has a lot of issues, and she needs to deal with them before she even thinks about dating.

Also, you state she is a Catholic, yet she married outside the church. That’s a mortal sin. She needs to go to Confession, reconcile with the Church, get some counseling, and put some space between her and the divorce. She also needs to do the paperwork for her lack of form marriage before she is actually free to date.

No matter how sorry for her you feel-- this is a BAD idea.

Great post. If she married outside the church without the proper dispensations, then the marriage never took place. Under such circumstances, I THINK it would be licit to date (but I would confirm this with a canon lawyer), but for the excellent reasons stated in this quote it would be a horrible idea. If she married outside the church with the proper dispensation, she is licitly married and she is not available to marry the OP (assuming the spouse is living). A declaration of nullity of marriage would be necessary, but I don’t have the guts to recommend this course of action without knowing the original circumstances and people.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Listen guys, I appreciate the comments. But I don’t want to open this up into a general discussion on if its a good relational idea to date so soon after a break up. Let’s just stick to the single topic of it being licit or not to date a woman in a marriage that is not recognized by the church and the divorce is not finalized yet in terms of administrative paperwork.

If its licit to date in this case then the person will need a friend to help get her situated and time to get to know the other person anyway. My opinion is it takes at least a year to get to know a person anyway (under normal circumstances) before it can advance toward a committed relationship. I just want to know if its sinful to date (or if you prefer platonicly get out together) before the secular courts finalize the divorce.

So far I get conflicting messages and am not sure. My inclination is to wait for finalization of decree of divorce before even contacting the person again. I certainly don’t want to put myself in a reversal situation where they later make 11th hr amends and make me the bad guy for trying to be a friend - which is a common scenario to be careful of I am told.

BTW: She did NOT commit a mortal sin by marrying outside the church since she was clueless that it was wrong. She was just happy to be married at the time and did not know any better.

James

 

[thistle]

Listen guys, I appreciate the comments. But I don’t want to open this up into a general discussion on if its a good relational idea to date so soon after a break up. Let’s just stick to the single topic of it being licit or not to date a woman in a marriage that is not recognized by the church and the divorce is not finalized yet in terms of administrative paperwork.

If its licit to date in this case then the person will need a friend to help get her situated and time to get to know the other person anyway. My opinion is it takes at least a year to get to know a person anyway (under normal circumstances) before it can advance toward a committed relationship. I just want to know if its sinful to date (or if you prefer platonicly get out together) before the secular courts finalize the divorce.

So far I get conflicting messages and am not sure. My inclination is to wait for finalization of decree of divorce before even contacting the person again. I certainly don’t want to put myself in a reversal situation where they later make 11th hr amends and make me the bad guy for trying to be a friend - which is a common scenario to be careful of I am told.

BTW: She did NOT commit a mortal sin by marrying outside the church since she was clueless that it was wrong. She was just happy to be married at the time and did not know any better.

James

Its been answered. A marriage outside the Church is deemed to be vaild until it is proven to be invalid during the annulment process. Therefore you cannot “date” someone who is married.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Its been answered. A marriage outside the Church is deemed to be vaild until it is proven to be invalid during the annulment process. Therefore you cannot “date” someone who is married.

OK, thanks. So are you also telling me that the Church will not prove a marriage is invalid through a declaration of anullment until AFTER the secular courts have granted a decree of divorce on a marriage that The Church would never recognize a priori as valid? I am wondering if this is just a courtesy and convention to secular law and if there is a way to get The Church to declare a marriage anulled before the courts act on it if the catholic person wants it declared invalid without waiting for the courts to rule?

While we are at this, on a seperate question, does anyone know if it is possible for The Church to marry two Catholic couples without filing for a secular marriage license? I have always resented the notion that the state should have to “license” and recognize a church sacrament and mirror it in the secular courts and public records. This is an instance where I am highly in favor of separation of church and state.

James

 

[Joe_5859]

OK, thanks. So are you also telling me that the Church will not prove a marriage is invalid through a declaration of anullment until AFTER the secular courts have granted a decree of divorce on a marriage that The Church would never recognize a priori as valid? I am wondering if this is just a courtesy and convention to secular law and if there is a way to get The Church to declare a marriage anulled before the courts act on it if the catholic person wants it declared invalid without waiting for the courts to rule?

You could check with your diocesan marriage tribunal, but I believe that, in most cases, the civil divorce must come first before they even look at granting an annulment. It is quite possible that exceptions can be made in this regard, but if the civil divorce is only two months from being finalized, I would bet that the marriage tribunal would wait. Or perhaps, all that is necessary for the marriage tribunal is that the divorce proceedings be underway, even if not finalized. Either way, it’s worth a call to the diocesan office.

And, again, even if it seems like an open-and-shut case that the marriage is invalid, it still has to go through the process before the Church will grant the declaration of nullity. And that process, in most cases, does not begin until after the civil divorce.

As for why this is the case, I’m not sure. I don’t think it’s necessary that the civil divorce comes first, but it probably makes things a lot less complicated. Imagine a couple saying they are getting a divorce, going through the annulment process, and then later changing their mind. Their marriage is now declared to be null, yet they are still legally married. This is just my guess, but a civil divorce lets the Church know that these people are serious about separating. For a more complete answer, talking to someone from the diocesan marriage tribunal might be helpful.

While we are at this, on a seperate question, does anyone know if it is possible for The Church to marry two Catholic couples without filing for a secular marriage license? I have always resented the notion that the state should have to “license” and recognize a church sacrament and mirror it in the secular courts and public records. This is an instance where I am highly in favor of separation of church and state.

Possible, yes, because the Sacraments are not dependent upon the state. Would it happen? Not unless there was a good reason (such as something potentially life-threatening to the couple). Yes, the Church and state are separate, but the Church does not want to operate counter to or against the State if She can help it.

 

[thistle]

OK, thanks. So are you also telling me that the Church will not prove a marriage is invalid through a declaration of anullment until AFTER the secular courts have granted a decree of divorce on a marriage that The Church would never recognize a priori as valid? I am wondering if this is just a courtesy and convention to secular law and if there is a way to get The Church to declare a marriage anulled before the courts act on it if the catholic person wants it declared invalid without waiting for the courts to rule?

While we are at this, on a seperate question, does anyone know if it is possible for The Church to marry two Catholic couples without filing for a secular marriage license? I have always resented the notion that the state should have to “license” and recognize a church sacrament and mirror it in the secular courts and public records. This is an instance where I am highly in favor of separation of church and state.

James

The Church will not begin the annulment process until after a legal divorce has taken place.

 

[jmcrae]

OK, thanks. So are you also telling me that the Church will not prove a marriage is invalid through a declaration of anullment until AFTER the secular courts have granted a decree of divorce on a marriage that The Church would never recognize a priori as valid?

This is a “no man’s land” where two Church laws overlap - she is neither married, nor eligible to get married, because on the one hand, her marriage is not considered valid (her choices are to divorce and seek a Declaration of Nullity, or to have her marriage made valid in the Church - the second is the easier and less expensive of the two), but on the other hand, she does not have in her hands a Decree of Nullity showing that it is, in fact, invalid - meaning that she can’t date, yet.

I am wondering if this is just a courtesy and convention to secular law and if there is a way to get The Church to declare a marriage anulled before the courts act on it if the catholic person wants it declared invalid without waiting for the courts to rule?

No - she has to follow procedure.

While we are at this, on a seperate question, does anyone know if it is possible for The Church to marry two Catholic couples without filing for a secular marriage license?

Jesus said, “Give to God what is God’s, and give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.” We have to live in both worlds at the same time, and we have obligations to each of them.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is a “no man’s land” where two Church laws overlap - she is neither married, nor eligible to get married, because on the one hand, her marriage is not considered valid (her choices are to divorce and seek a Declaration of Nullity, or to have her marriage made valid in the Church - the second is the easier and less expensive of the two), but on the other hand, she does not have in her hands a Decree of Nullity showing that it is, in fact, invalid - meaning that she can’t date, yet.

No - she has to follow procedure.

Jesus said, “Give to God what is God’s, and give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.” We have to live in both worlds at the same time, and we have obligations to each of them.

Thanks jmcrae - that was a good, objective and apparently accurate answer. It seems reasonable.

James

 

[BlaineTog]

OK, thanks. So are you also telling me that the Church will not prove a marriage is invalid through a declaration of anullment until AFTER the secular courts have granted a decree of divorce on a marriage that The Church would never recognize a priori as valid?

The Church recognizes secular marriages as valid, just not sacramental. Two people married at a courthouse are married, just not in the same way that two people married through the Church are married.

 

[1ke]

OK, thanks. So are you also telling me that the Church will not prove a marriage is invalid through a declaration of anullment until AFTER the secular courts have granted a decree of divorce on a marriage that The Church would never recognize a priori as valid? I am wondering if this is just a courtesy and convention to secular law and if there is a way to get The Church to declare a marriage anulled before the courts act on it if the catholic person wants it declared invalid without waiting for the courts to rule?

That is correct. A divorce must be completed before a nullity investigation begins.

While we are at this, on a seperate question, does anyone know if it is possible for The Church to marry two Catholic couples without filing for a secular marriage license?

No, not currently in the US.

 

[1ke]

The Church recognizes secular marriages as valid, just not sacramental. Two people married at a courthouse are married, just not in the same way that two people married through the Church are married.

As has already been discussed numerous times-- this is NOT correct.

 

[jmcrae]

The Church recognizes secular marriages as valid, just not sacramental. Two people married at a courthouse are married, just not in the same way that two people married through the Church are married.

This is far too over-simplified.

How it goes is this:

Two Catholics (baptized and confirmed) receive the Sacrament of Marriage validly by making their marriage vows before a priest in a Catholic Church. This is both valid and Sacramental.

A Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic seek permission to marry either in the Catholic Church with a Catholic priest, or else with a priest as witness in an alternate location. Having received permission, this marriage is both valid and Sacramental.

Two baptized non-Catholics get married according to whatever tradition they recognize as being a marriage (including before a Justice of the Peace), and this, too, is both valid and Sacramental.

A Catholic and an unbaptized non-Catholic seek permission to marry either in the Catholic Church with a Catholic priest, or else with a priest as witness in an alternate location. Having received permission, this marriage is valid, but not Sacramental.

A baptized non-Catholic and an unbaptized non-Catholic get married according to whatever tradition they recognize as being a marriage (including before a Justice of the Peace), and this, too, is valid, but not Sacramental.

Two unbaptized non-Catholics get married according to whatever tradition they recognize as being a marriage (including before a Justice of the Peace), and again, it is valid, but not Sacramental.

The only way a marriage can be considered not valid while the marriage is still going on (ie: before the divorce) is this (the following are all examples of invalid marriages):

Two Catholics attempt to marry in a location other than in a Catholic Church without receiving permission to do so. (ie: a beach wedding.)

A Catholic marries a non-Catholic in a location other than in a Catholic Church, without receiving permission to do so, and with no dispensation for marrying outside the faith.

A divorced person who has not received a Declaration of Nullity attempts marriage to a second partner.

A married person attempts marriage with a second person, without bothering either with the divorce or the Declaration of Nullity.

A person attempts to marry someone of the same sex.

A person attempts to marry someone who is not competent to be married (such as a child, a mentally disabled person, or an insane person).

 

[BlaineTog]

This is far too over-simplified.

True. Your post was more-or-less what I was going for,

 

[catharina]

True. Your post was more-or-less what I was going for,

The simplest answer: this woman is not free to date anyone who is a practicing Catholic because she is already married. The Church will never give comment or pronounce on annulment until a legal civil divorce has taken place.

It’s a rule that does NOT change.