Is it a sin to denounce or condemn the Pope?

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Charlotte408

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I was having a conversation with an Atheist…and…he was going off about the Pope allowing for the rape of boys saying that since I was catholic, I had a hand in it because we haven’t denounced the Pope…

Then he said, if I dont approve of the molestation or rape of children, then for me to denounce and condemn the Pope.

I dont approve or allow for the child molestation or rape of kids…but I felt I was in some sort of catch 22- like that mueslim girl who refused to condemn hamas:

youtube.com/watch?v=n91ih3_Yy5Y

Is it a sin, to condemn or denounce the Pope??? I’m not sure where I stand on the whole scandal…There does seem to be a lot of evidence piling up against him, but, on the other hand, there’s two sides of the story and I am not dis-illusioned that the media is totally bias and out to ruin catholicism…so…

Lets just ‘say’ for the sake of arguement that it is true, that these things did happen, would it then be a sin to denounce him?? are there any situations where it would be okay? Not that I would want to…but…how does that work?
 
And no, I didnt do it. I simply stated that I denounced ANYONE who would have a hand in the rape or molestation of a child.
 
I asked if he condemned the public school system that has more instances of child abuse than our church, and:
I highly doubt that statistic charlotte
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Especially since the ACTUAL numbers on the amount of kids that have been molested is coming to light moreso each day.
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However, the fundamental difference is, that when the educational system finds someone raping children, they TURN THAT PERSON INTO THE AUTHORITIES. They don’t move him to a different school to try and protect their image…
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This is what Catholics refuse to address. It’s called institutionalized child rape, and there is documented evidence PROVING that the pope perpetrated the cover-up.
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:confused: This is making me so sad…
 
I assume that you are speaking about Benedict XVI. Where is the lot of evidence piling up against him? I keep people saying that and the news channels making a lot of noise about it, but I am still waiting for hard evidence. The only info that I have is that he has been instrumental to fight it, I am not saying that he has completely solved the problem.
 
Cristiano said:
I assume that you are speaking about Benedict XVI. Where is the lot of evidence piling up against him? I keep people saying that and the news channels making a lot of noise about it, but I am still waiting for hard evidence. The only info that I have is that he has been instrumental to fight it, I am not saying that he has completely solved the problem.
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Well if this info that you have of him being ‘instrumental in fighting it’ is handy I’d like to have a link or something because NO ONE believes me when I say its not proven that he had anything to do with it…People think I’m crazy, in denial, brainwashed you name it. Its like its been PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt and I’m the only one who refuses to ‘see the light’…
 
And just to keep the original OP question in mind, IF this was the case, WOULD the catholic church denounce or condemn him??

Wait- we couldnt ‘condemn’ him correct?? Because only God can ‘condemn’ people…so…would we ‘denounce’ him? Would he be removed as Pope??
 
It is certainly a sin to falsely accuse or denounce anyone, pope or not, without due process. The only ones qualified to submit the Pope to any such process would be the Bishops and Cardinals.

I know nothing about Pope Benedict raping any boys or facilitating the raping of anyone.

Your atheist friend’s bitter and dead soul is just going through the process of preparing itself for eternal torment, hence his venom and bile.
 
Charlotte408 said:
Well if this info that you have of him being ‘instrumental in fighting it’ is handy I’d like to have a link or something because NO ONE believes me when I say its not proven that he had anything to do with it…People think I’m crazy, in denial, brainwashed you name it. Its like its been PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt and I’m the only one who refuses to ‘see the light’…
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This Pope is doing more to stop the abuse, & basically keep it from happening again than John Paul ever did. (& I’m not criticizing Pope John Paul II, but am praising Pope Benedict.) Most people are aware that the sexual abuse crisis was one of Pederasty, …homosexual men abusing pubescent & post pubescent boys. Pope Benedict XVI has issued a document forbidding the ordination of homosexual men. Of course, Pope John XXIII also issued orders of the same nature, but they were “ignored”.

This is not P.C., so no one (except for the boy scouts) will discuss the true nature of our crisis, so if you tell this truth to your friend, he’ll probably call you a homophobe. That is the usual response, however, gays are welcome to be members of our Church…**just NOT priests. **
 
Greetings and peace be with you.

As a Catholic, you must have faith that the Pope is called of God. You must also have faith that if the Pope ever goes astray that God will strike him down. As such, to denounce the authority of the Pope is to denounce the Catholic faith.

There’s no a-la carte religion - that’s a religion of man not of God. Therefore, when you are faced with these conflicts of conscience, you need to adjust your perspective to see what is truth.

Is the truth that Pope Benedict is “hiding” crime to protect the “Catholic image”? Is the truth that Pope Benedict is condoning child abuse? I highly doubt it - and I’m LDS! As a Catholic, you know better.

Okay, let me give you a perfect analogy for this.

My uncle is a lawyer. He has been known to defend guilty criminals. Does this mean that he is condoning the crime? No. Not so. My uncle defends guilty criminals to guarantee that the criminal receives justice.

Now, think of this and think of the Catholic Church. A priest held vows and made special commandments to uphold the priesthood. This does not have any meaning outside of the church. It has no meaning in the court of law. Therefore, justice for the Priest is more full within the disciplinary confines of the Catholic church.

I am not saying they don’t need to be tried in a court of law. I am saying that I can understand the Catholic Church performing their investigations and disciplinary measures before engaging the rule of the law of the land.

This is but a test of your faith in Christ. Cling to Him and seek understanding through diligent prayer.
 
giuseppeTO said:
Your atheist friend’s bitter and dead soul is just going through the process of preparing itself for eternal torment, hence his venom and bile.
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Is this how Traditionalists in general speak about those we Christians are called to seek out and save?
 
Charlotte408 said:
Well if this info that you have of him being ‘instrumental in fighting it’ is handy I’d like to have a link or something because NO ONE believes me when I say its not proven that he had anything to do with it…People think I’m crazy, in denial, brainwashed you name it. Its like its been PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt and I’m the only one who refuses to ‘see the light’…
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Let them think what they want. They have hatred in their hearts. From a pure philosophical argument, they have the responsibility of proving their statements with facts and their conclusions without logic fallacies. It is a very common intellectual fallacy to shift the burden of proof on you, do not fall for it. Just because they are atheist that does not mean that they are capable of thinking straight, they might just claim so.
 
Cristiano said:
Let them think what they want. They have hatred in their hearts. From a pure philosophical argument, they have the responsibility of proving their statements with facts and their conclusions without logic fallacies. It is a very common intellectual fallacy to shift the burden of proof on you, do not fall for it. Just because they are atheist that does not mean that they are capable of thinking straight, they might just claim so.
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It’s funny how Catholics who cry “hatred” often have more hatred in their hearts than many of the atheists and others they denounce.
 
If the Pope is behaving improperly you have the duty to acknowledge it and do what you can to ensure that he reforms. However, this must be done in charity, as generally, most Popes are older, wiser men who know a lot more than you.

Opposing the Pope on his behavior (i.e., not condemning Monothelitism as a heresy) is okay, opposing the Pope when he has spoken for the church concerning faith and morals (not accepting Leo’s definition on the hypostatic union) is not okay at all.
 
Michael_Saint said:
Is this how Traditionalists in general speak about those we Christians are called to seek out and save?
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Oh please, Mike, you are more likely to get a no-nonsense reality check from a Traditional Catholic than the usual sugar-coat and cotton candy that the modern church gives.

The man has one and a half feet in hell and as St. John Bosco (a Traditional Catholic you may have heard of) said, is only separated from eternal punishment by the very sheerest and fragile of veneers known as life.

If you are afraid of telling him in the starkest terms, the state of his soul, my friend, you will not convert this guy by kissing and fondling him.

To be clear, I certainly don’t purport to speak for Traditionalists in general but sure others will chime in, one way or the other. Over the last 40 years, we have not sweet talked many folks into the faith … in fact many more have left than converted. Of the majority of those that converted, it was due to studying the hard facts and understanding the faith first.
 
I think it is wrong to ban homosexual men from the priesthood .they are not the only predators and no more or less than heterosexuals to abuse kids. when I grew up all the kids in the street knew who the predators were and they three of them were heterosexual.Of course we didn,t talk to adults about it because, first ,sex was a forbidden topic . Second they were VERY RESPECTED MEN and we would have had our mouths washed with soap for talking dirty .Three .we had overheard overt conversations that implied to make an a accusation of that kind could ruin an innocent man for life .So the older kids watched out for the younger kids and this was in a very respectable literate town in the west of Scotland .the dung hit the fan when a fourteen year old girl was rescued by the Salvation Army pregnant by her own father we were teenagers by that time , early sixties and not so shy to talk unfortunately one of these men is 74 years old now and still an usher in the parish ,because his parents were such nice people no one spoke up so God only knows what he got away with because of sex wasn,t supposed to be talked about I often wonder how he feels when he sees all those kids as adults now in church on Sunday mornings
 
Regarding the original question -

First of all our Pope had nothing to do with abuse. He has been our Pope since 2005.
He has been “cleaning house” as quickly as possible. Pope Benedict called the abuse “filth, and enemies from within the Church”.
Don’t believe everything you read in the NY Times who rarely admits that most of the cases are 15 to 40 years old, and that the perpetrators are dead or in jail where they belong. The NY Times (who sells stories to other papers) also rarely discusses the culpability of Parents of those abused, or Police who had been contacted.

Forces outside the Church want to shake your Faith - on purpose. *Yes, some of them are very evil. *

The Pope is the foundation of our Catholic Unity.
Read your CCC, 2nd Ed., pages 233 & 234 & 235.

Further the CCC, 2nd Ed - - will teach you the REAL teachings of the Church.
 
jamanne said:
I think it is wrong to ban homosexual men from the priesthood .they are not the only predators and no more or less than heterosexuals to abuse kids. when I grew up all the kids in the street knew who the predators were and they three of them were heterosexual.Of course we didn,t talk to adults about it because, first ,sex was a forbidden topic . Second they were VERY RESPECTED MEN and we would have had our mouths washed with soap for talking dirty .Three .we had overheard overt conversations that implied to make an a accusation of that kind could ruin an innocent man for life .So the older kids watched out for the younger kids and this was in a very respectable literate town in the west of Scotland .the dung hit the fan when a fourteen year old girl was rescued by the Salvation Army pregnant by her own father we were teenagers by that time , early sixties and not so shy to talk unfortunately one of these men is 74 years old now and still an usher in the parish ,because his parents were such nice people no one spoke up so God only knows what he got away with because of sex wasn,t supposed to be talked about I often wonder how he feels when he sees all those kids as adults now in church on Sunday mornings
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So you are against the Pope?
 
Michael_Saint said:
It’s funny how Catholics who cry “hatred” often have more hatred in their hearts than many of the atheists and others they denounce.
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Can you please explain your point considering that you are quoting my post.

Do you think that hatred is fun?

Are you saying that I have more hatred in my heart than those people that accuse the Pope of vile crimes without evidence but just because it is a popular thing to do?

Can you please show that Catholics often have more hatred that those that they denounce?
 
Michael_Saint said:
Is this how Traditionalists in general speak about those we Christians are called to seek out and save?
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I do not consider myself a Traditionalist but I try to be orthodox and this is really how sin works. It is an avalanche effect! The language might be harsh but fear of God is a fundamental teaching and we should not sugar coat it given the possible outcome. I would not use this language to address a specific person, but when used in a generality is quite effective to deliver the message without an ad hominen attack.
 
Honestly I can’t help but admire him. He has taken on the issue of pediphile and placed himself directly at blame only because he is the Pope, thus he is the Catholic Church and thus the Catholic Faith. He has addressed the issue at every point when confronted with it.

His discussion in May on the third secret and his open admissions are again admirable.

I’ve yet to be disappointed in any words he has spoken and have in turn gained a great deal of respect for the Holy Father.

What in specific are we talking about?

google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.voanews.com%2Fenglish%2Fnews%2FPope-Benedict-Promises-to-Bring-Pedophile-Priests-to-Justice-91387519.html&ei=B1YRTMvuDISglAeDgc2FCA&usg=AFQjCNEqv8GQtc2MrSJc6sgH2H-F8l3u9A
 
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