Is it a sin to have sex before marriage if you eventually get married?

[SuperSheepStyle]

Also, did your parents not talk to you about this?

Ah, no…unfortunately, my parents are relatively liberal in the faith. My mother actively uses contraception and forced me on it from a young age, despite my resistance, and during the year I was confirmed, I attended probably half of the meetings because my dad just “didn’t want to take me.” I am considerably more religious than both of them combined.

 

[1ke]

Ah, no…unfortunately, my parents are relatively liberal in the faith. My mother actively uses contraception and forced me on it from a young age, despite my resistance, and during the year I was confirmed, I attended probably half of the meetings because my dad just “didn’t want to take me.”

I’m sorry to hear that.

I am considerably more religious than both of them combined.

God bless you for wanting to live a Catholic life.

 

[steve-b]

HomeschoolDad:

We need to get rid of all this “grave” and “serious” business, and just say “mortal sin” or “venial sin”.

We are not in the business of determining when somebody else has committed “mortal sin”. That’s between himself and his confessor. We can tell the person he committed grave sin, but mortal vs. venial is not our call to make for anyone other than perhaps ourselves; even when deciding for ourselves we do not always judge correctly. I’ve gone to very orthodox priests all set to confess my mortal sin and gotten told the sin wasn’t mortal or it wasn’t a sin at all.

A lot of the differentiation has to do with whether we actually meant to commit the mortal sin, and whether we actually knew it was a grave sin when we were doing it. There is a whole heck of a lot of stuff I was confused about when I was younger for various reasons, and it wasn’t a simple matter to go find out the “right” answer especially in the pre-Internet, pre-CCC, pre-Theology of the Body days, when many adults were also very squeamish about discussing sexual behavior with teens.

I have to say that I personally don’t find the “mortal” vs. “venial” sin demarcation to be very helpful to me personally. It seems like that would only really matter to someone who was trying to get out of having to go to confession. If you go to confession regularly, and you avoid anything that seems grave and/or confess it right away when you need to confess it, then you never have to think about whether you committed a mortal or venial sin, except maybe for refraining from Communion if you’re not positive. I don’t sit around classifying my sins. I just try to avoid all sin, period.

Re: the highlighted statement

How then can John teach the following if what you say is true?

1 Jn 5:16-17

AND

How then can one follow John’s warning/teaching

AND

Who taught you that mortal sin was (soooooooooo “o’s” to infinity), difficult to assess if one can’t do it?

Just asking

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Who taught you that mortal sin was (soooooooooo “o’s” to infinity), difficult to assess if one can’t do it?

Two separate priests, one on here and one who’s my personal confessor, have told me that we cannot determine when others are in mortal sin. (In addition to numerous lay posters on here agreeing with that, presumably because they have learned the same from their own priests.)

We can tell other people when a sin of theirs is grave, serious, possibly mortal.
We cannot tell other people when a sin of theirs is definitely mortal.

And, when I try to determine which of my sins are actually mortal, I have made mistakes at least 2-3 times.
It doesn’t matter to me as I confessed the sin anyway, but the confessors in both cases (2 different confessors from the 2 priests I mentioned above) explained to me that my sin was not mortal. One of them also added that there is a tendency for certain lay Catholics to go around telling others they are in mortal sin and “finding new mortal sins” where there isn’t one.

So, if you have problems with what I said, please discuss it with your own priest, and if he wants to say the four priests I have talked to are all wrong, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Have a nice evening, it is time for the evening Rosary against Coronavirus online so I will be taking my leave of this thread.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Who taught you that mortal sin was (soooooooooo “o’s” to infinity), difficult to assess if one can’t do it?

Two separate priests, one on here and one who’s my personal confessor, have told me that we cannot determine when others are in mortal sin.

You completely bypassed what was aid before that.

How can John teach the following if what you say is true?

1 Jn 5:16-17

AND

How then can one follow John’s warning/teaching?

I noticed you didn’t open the link. Ask your priest the same question.

No priest in my parish believes what you posted

 

[drac16]

Tomorrow is not a guarantee for you. You don’t know the date, nor the hour when your death will come. Therefore, it is very possible that you could die before you repent of that sin. It’s like a guy that charges up his credit card and thinks that all the merchandise in his cart was free. Who are you kidding, bro?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Re: the highlighted statement

How then can John teach the following if what you say is true?

1 Jn 5:16-17

We can only see what someone has done, and can know from Catholic moral teaching whether it is something that is objectively mortally sinful (or what more contemporary Catholics like to call “gravely” sinful). None of us has a spotlight into somebody else’s mind, soul, and conscience.

We are not in the business of determining when somebody else has committed “mortal sin”. That’s between himself and his confessor. We can tell the person he committed grave sin, but mortal vs. venial is not our call to make for anyone other than perhaps ourselves; even when deciding for ourselves we do not always judge correctly. I’ve gone to very orthodox priests all set to confess my mortal sin and gotten told the sin wasn’t mortal or it wasn’t a sin at all.

Well, for that matter, I’ve never understood how even a priest can tell a penitent whether their sin was mortal or venial. He can point out “if you had sufficient reflection, and if you had full consent of the will, then it would have been a mortal sin”, but how can he go beyond that? I did have one confessor to tell me “I cannot tell you whether you have committed a mortal sin or not”, but he was an extreme “freedom of conscience” advocate and was not faithful to the magisterium, so I wouldn’t put much stock in anything he ever told me.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Re: the highlighted statement

How then can John teach the following if what you say is true?

1 Jn 5:16-17

We can only see what someone has done, and can know from Catholic moral teaching whether it is something that is objectively mortally sinful (or what more contemporary Catholics like to call “gravely” sinful). None of us has a spotlight into somebody else’s mind, soul, and conscience.

Operative words that sheds light on all this

Once someone becomes knowledgeable of the truth … THEN…

We see that heads up from back in the OT

Example:

Let’s say

A = Catholic
B = anyone doing wrong
Life = Heaven
Death = Hell

here’s 4 potential scenarios using Ez 3:17-21
(emphasis and paraphrasing mine)

To begin with, I understand
I’m not anyone’s judge

here’s 4 potential scenarios, from Ezekiel,

1. “If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A & B are both screwed. Both die
2. “But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.” . IOW A gives B warning. B ignores the warning. A lives B is screwed.
3. “if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A is screwed. B is being B and is screwed and ALSO, his good works are not remembered
4. "Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.” . IOW A warns B and B listens and changes, A & B live

putting this as God sees it, As a result of the instruction and consequences mentioned, I would do all I can to be in scenarios 2 & 4 and avoid #s 1 & 3 like the plague. But that’s me.

NT example

Heb 10: 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

That’s why we educate

AND

Ignorance isn’t always an escape. see 1791

 

[HomeschoolDad]

All of this is WAY beyond my job description.

I am content to judge no one’s soul or salvation, and absolutely to cauterize mortally sinful behavior. Two different things entirely.

 

[steve-b]

All of this is WAY beyond my job description.

I am content to judge no one’s soul or salvation, and absolutely to cauterize mortally sinful behavior. Two different things entirely.

The point of those examples, is to show, it is NOT above anyone’s pay grade.

AND

The reason I posted , Ignorance isn’t always an escape. see 1791

was to show we have a responsibility to learn what we are supposed to know. IOW ignorance isn’t necessarily a get outta jail free card… for any one except, for example, the mentally challenged …etc

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

All of this is WAY beyond my job description.

I am content to judge no one’s soul or salvation, and absolutely to cauterize mortally sinful behavior . Two different things entirely.

The point of those examples, is to show, it is NOT above anyone’s pay grade.

AND

The reason I posted , Ignorance isn’t always an escape . see 1791

was to show we have a responsibility to learn what we are supposed to know. IOW ignorance isn’t necessarily a get outta jail free card… for any one except, for example, the mentally challenged …etc

Even appearing to “judge” anyone, even in orthodox Catholic circles, is very poorly received in today’s world. Nothing gets people’s dander up more than coming across as “judging” someone — especially if they’re the ones being “judged”. Does that say more about “today’s world” than it does anything else? I don’t know. I’ve never looked to “the times” to establish my faith or morality. But I am not about to start judging other people as having become damned because they committed Mortal Sin X (or Grave Sin X, if you prefer).

I don’t “mute” threads, but I have no more to say about this subject. Pax tecum.

 

[steve-b]

HomeschoolDad:

HomeschoolDad:

All of this is WAY beyond my job description.

I am content to judge no one’s soul or salvation, and absolutely to cauterize mortally sinful behavior . Two different things entirely.

The point of those examples, is to show, it is NOT above anyone’s pay grade.

AND

The reason I posted , Ignorance isn’t always an escape . see 1791

was to show we have a responsibility to learn what we are supposed to know. IOW ignorance isn’t necessarily a get outta jail free card… for any one except, for example, the mentally challenged …etc

Even appearing to “judge” anyone, even in orthodox Catholic circles, is very poorly received in today’s world. Nothing gets people’s dander up more than coming across as “judging” someone — especially if they’re the ones being “judged”. Does that say more about “today’s world” than it does anything else? I don’t know. I’ve never looked to “the times” to establish my faith or morality. But I am not about to start judging other people as having become damned because they committed Mortal Sin X (or Grave Sin X, if you prefer).

I don’t “mute” threads, but I have no more to say about this subject. Pax tecum.

I was only passing on valid and important info. I’m not the author of any of that.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Even appearing to “judge” anyone, even in orthodox Catholic circles, is very poorly received in today’s world. Nothing gets people’s dander up more than coming across as “judging” someone — especially if they’re the ones being “judged”. Does that say more about “today’s world” than it does anything else? I don’t know. I’ve never looked to “the times” to establish my faith or morality. But I am not about to start judging other people as having become damned because they committed Mortal Sin X (or Grave Sin X, if you prefer).

I don’t “mute” threads, but I have no more to say about this subject. Pax tecum.

I was only passing on valid and important info. I’m not the author of any of that.

I know I said that I was done with this, but I will just add this:

I read your “A-B-Heaven-Hell” scenario more closely, and I don’t think you and I disagree, I think we are just talking past each other, and I will take the blame for that. I find “blame-assigning” and “fault-ascribing” to be more in the province of Grade 3 students quarreling in the schoolyard, but anyway:

As I said, I do not judge people, but I do call out behavior as mortally sinful. If I say to someone, “you will surely die”, or to put it another way “that thing X you did is mortally sinful”, I have not judged the person, I have just judged his behavior, the outward act. What is going on in his head, soul, and conscience, that I cannot know. If he asks for elaboration, I can explain that if you know X is a mortal sin, and you fully want to do X, then it seems that you have, indeed, committed a mortal sin, but I cannot see inside his soul, to know how all this fits together. Only God can do that.

Yet your garden-variety modern will scream bloody murder if you point out that the X he did is mortally sinful. His first words? “You’re judging me! Stop!”. I like to think I know just a little bit about human nature, and if I had to guess, I’d say that I’ve hit a nerve with that guy. Deep, deep down, he knows. He might not be able to articulate it, but it breaks out like this: His conscience is pricked. He’s long ago dismissed the idea that X is sinful. He doesn’t like being reminded. It hurts. For that brief moment, he is called upon to choose God or choose Sin X — he can’t have both. Yet all I did was basically read him the catechism. In reality, he is judging himself, but because he can’t admit that, he accuses me of having judged him.

 

[steve-b]

HomeschoolDad:

HomeschoolDad:

Even appearing to “judge” anyone, even in orthodox Catholic circles, is very poorly received in today’s world. Nothing gets people’s dander up more than coming across as “judging” someone — especially if they’re the ones being “judged”. Does that say more about “today’s world” than it does anything else? I don’t know. I’ve never looked to “the times” to establish my faith or morality. But I am not about to start judging other people as having become damned because they committed Mortal Sin X (or Grave Sin X, if you prefer).

I don’t “mute” threads, but I have no more to say about this subject. Pax tecum.

I was only passing on valid and important info. I’m not the author of any of that.

I know I said that I was done with this, but I will just add this:

I read your “A-B-Heaven-Hell” scenario more closely, and I don’t think you and I disagree, I think we are just talking past each other, and I will take the blame for that. I find “blame-assigning” and “fault-ascribing” to be more in the province of Grade 3 students quarreling in the schoolyard, but anyway:

As I said, I do not judge people, but I do call out behavior as mortally sinful. If I say to someone, “you will surely die”, or to put it another way “that thing X you did is mortally sinful”, I have not judged the person, I have just judged his behavior, the outward act. What is going on in his head, soul, and conscience, that I cannot know. If he asks for elaboration, I can explain that if you know X is a mortal sin, and you fully want to do X, then it seems that you have, indeed, committed a mortal sin, but I cannot see inside his soul, to know how all this fits together. Only God can do that.

Yet your garden-variety modern will scream bloody murder if you point out that the X he did is mortally sinful. His first words? “You’re judging me! Stop!”. I like to think I know just a little bit about human nature, and if I had to guess, I’d say that I’ve hit a nerve with that guy. Deep, deep down, he knows. He might not be able to articulate it, but it breaks out like this: His conscience is pricked. He’s long ago dismissed the idea that X is sinful. He doesn’t like being reminded. It hurts. For that brief moment, he is called upon to choose God or choose Sin X — he can’t have both. Yet all I did was basically read him the catechism. In reality, he is judging himself,

You describe who “B” is , in #'s 1& 3, paraphrased. HERE

SO

[A] isn’t judging . [A] is warning . God says there is consequences for both if both don’t respond properly to the proper instruction. [A] is NOT responsible for successfully changing . All [A] has to do is give correction/warning etc to . OTOH, if [A] remains quiet, and won’t alert/ warn then [A] is also screwed along with

 

[AdamP88]

I was always taught that premarital sex itself wasn’t the sin, but it became the sin of adultery if you broke up with the person and had sex with someone else.

That is incorrect. Whoever told you this should not have been in charge of catechesis.

but now I’m finding out that that’s not necessarily true from the RCIA teacher

It’s not only not necessarily true. It’s simply false.

The Church teaches that sex is specially reserved for marriage as marriage is the only setting in which sex can be truly meaningful. Because it is a total self gift, you give the other person your body and all that comes with that, including the possibility of new life, It can only be fully meaningful in marriage. This is because in marriage, the couple are bound to each other sacramentally and physically and the sexual expression reinforces that each time it occurs.

 

[TheLittleLady]

God designed that a man and woman come before family, friends and God himself

There is no requirement to have family or friends at a wedding. The man, woman, 2 witnesses (do not have to be Catholic) and the officiant.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I’d say that I’ve hit a nerve with that guy . Deep, deep down, he knows .

That’s probably because he finds it annoying not because of his conscience.