Is it a sin to immigrate illegally?

[sprout]

Rom 13

Those who immigrate illegally are breaking the laws of two or more governments who have been put into power by God and as such they are then violating God’s law made known throught those government.

so you believe mans laws = God’s laws?

do you make no distinction between the two, so that, to violate any and all laws men make is to sin against God? make no “distinction between serving God and serving the political community.”

do you then believe that St. Peter sinned against God by preaching the name of Christ as forbidden by the law of the Sadduces? Acts 5.29

 

[joab]

How is it you are in an underpaid job competing on an unfair field?
Unless you are picking strawberries for a living, cleaning bathrooms, doing dishes, or mowing lawns I seriously doubt that’s the case. You seem quite astute at the written word and quite able to do much better for yourself.

I see, so you only have trouble with Mexicans who come here. :tsktsk:

I work mainly as a nursing asst. in a nursing home. I would think that this is as “menial” of work as the above and I don’t think that “I can do so much better” for myself. As I stated previousely, there is lots of illegals doing my job between the ages of 18-30, but not older folks with families. Not the teenagers either. They are sending their money back home and those homes are very nice.

My trouble with the Mexicans- before you tsktsk- is that they are here illegally!!!The Somolians are not, in fact, they are starting to deport some of them as the “homeland” has quieted down, and the government tracked them as they FOLLOWED the law. The government can’t find illegal Mexicans. But the illegals find my job and others like mine. At the home I work in, there are 17 Mexicans living in one house. One lady owns it and is a legal citizen. The rest “board” there and send their money home. They brag about how rich they are with money in the bank at home. They are young.

So, if you come here lawfully-like Somolians do- I welcome you. You need help studying to pass the nursing asst. tests, I am there. You need help getting to the test site-I am there. You need help understanding a conversation, customs, etc., I am there. If you need time-off to visit with your husband, I am there donating my vacation time. You want help translating-I am there. You need help understanding paychecks, banking-I am there. You want a friend-I am gratefully here as a person can never have too many friends.

So, if you come here illegally-like the 10-12 million Mexicans have-my door is closed. If you wreck my car(uninsured Mexican), attack my child(illegal mexican immigrant), take my job(two illegal Mexicans), use a taxpayer support system like medical(hospital charges more to me to make up the free care provided to the illegals), dummy down the schools and provide free lunches for illegals(my school costs are up and the level of teaching down), …my door is shut. There have been none of these problems with the legal immigrants I have encountered and I have encountered my fair share being in a more menial job that others.

It is mainly the Mexican immigrant for me, but I have a problem with anyone from anywhere coming here illegally. You are breaking the law which, to me, is up there with lying, cheating or stealing. I do not encourage any of those behaviours and do not ask anyone to help me with those behaviours.

Sprout, we will never probably agree on this issue. I am happy you have replied to my posts even though you quote sources/statistics. My eyes just glaze over. I am sorry for that. Unless someone is in the “trenches”, I usually don’t believe what they say about any subject. As for statistics/numbers, I have yet to see any that can’t be changed to state something totally opposite.

You have empathy-which is a good thing. I will learn alot from you.

 

[sprout]

QUOTE=joab;2689236
I work mainly as a nursing asst. in a nursing home. I would think that this is as “menial” of work as the above and I don’t think that “I can do so much better” for myself. As I stated previousely, there is lots of illegals doing my job between the ages of 18-30, but not older folks with families. Not the teenagers either. They are sending their money back home and those homes are very nice.

I find this highly suspect. I have worked in the medical field and I have several family members who work in the medical field. Medical care facilities are licensed by the state and have strict requirements for those who participate in care. A nursing assistant would have to be licensed by the state in order to hold a position as “Nursing Assistant”. This licensing would require not only a valid SS#, but schooling and certification as well. There is no way an undocumented worker could hold a position as a nursing assistant in a licensed nursing care facility, perhaps as a dish washer or janitorial service worker, but not a nursing assistant. If you have first hand knowledge that the facility in which you are working does hire unlicensed and/or undocumented nursing assistants then you should find other employment as it’s only a matter of time before that place is shut down. You should also notify the authorities of this as it is your duty to the patients in your care to make sure those who are caring for them are properly trained and licensed to do so. I do think it is much more likely that the people you suspect of being here “illegally” are actually here legally and just sending money home to their families.

At the home I work in, there are 17 Mexicans living in one house. One lady owns it and is a legal citizen. The rest “board” there and send their money home. They brag about how rich they are with money in the bank at home. They are young.

Do you work in a “private home” as a nursing assistant or a nursing home? Are you working in a nursing home that caters mostly to mexicans who are young? I thought nursing homes are for the elderly or disabled who need 24 hour care not young, strong (as you put it) mexicans? How do you know for certain these mexicans are here illegally? I’m confused

 

[sprout]

I fault our government for this as well. I would be willing to discuss what opportunities we should provide for alien workers - but not until we secure the borders. I am real tired of the feds bait and switch actions where they promise both border security and amnesty to get laws passed and then renege on the security part.

I also think you would make more progress with your arguments if you didn’t phrase them as if the rights of aliens overrode the rights of Americans. We have an obligation to do justice but the citizens of other countries have no rights to ignore our laws and take what we have not freely given them. Make it an issue of our justice towards them, not of their rights against ours.

Ender

I don’t think the rights of aliens override the rights of US Citizens. I apologize if I have given you that perception and I’m not sure what I have said exactly that gives that impression. I think all “men” are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and I believe the bill of rights says as much. I do hold the US to these standards as laid out in the Bill of Rights as a patriotic citizen of the US. The preamble to the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights asserts that rights are inalienable:

“recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world.”

I don’t think these particular citizens of other countries we are discussing, Mexican nationals, are taking what we have not freely given, since they are “taking” what has been “offered” – work offered by US employers and citizens alike. I don’t argue this is right or just, it just IS, and I do have difficulty faulting them for accepting work that is offered when they are trying, like anyone else, to provide for their families.

I appreciate the advice and I will try to think of ways to more clearly communicate justice towards all. I fully acknowledge my inability to communicate my thoughts clearly as there seems to be rampant misunderstanding of my intent throughout this thread.

 

[catharina]

To claim it is sin to immigrate illegally would be to claim the intrinsic justice of immigration regulations. I’m not able to do that since I have no reason to believe that the anti-immigration stance of the USA is any more valid than the anti-Life atance of the USA. To say or imply that a law is just by the fact of its mere existence is to act in defiance of both love and logic.

If all immigration policy is just in the USA then one might argue that to defy it is sinful; however even that line of reasoning cannot mean that anyone and everyone who acts against the policy is sinful by in such action. The law of God always overrides the law of the land when the two are in conflict.

It’s Spirit versus letter of the law. One’s conscience must speak to the mercy and justice of God not man.

 

[sprout]

catharina,

awesome response! very well stated, and you’re in good company:

To quote Pope John Paul II from

*Annual Message for World Migration Day 1996 given July 25, 1995 *

His irregular legal status cannot allow the migrant to lose his dignity, since he is endowed with inalienable rights, which can neither be violated nor ignored.

It is necessary to guard against the rise of new forms of racism or xenophobic behavior, which attempt to make these brothers and sisters of ours scapegoats for what may be difficult local situations.

Due to the considerable proportions reached by the illegal migrant phenomenon, legislation in all the countries involved should be brought into harmony, also for a more equitable distribution of the burdens of a balanced solution. It is necessary to avoid recourse to the use of administrative regulations, meant to restrict the criterion of family membership, which result in unjustifiably forcing into an illegal situation people whose right to live with their family cannot be denied by any law.

 

[catharina]

Thank you, sprout. Yes, Church teaching is quite clear regarding just and unjust laws. It takes little time to discern when a law is set up in opposition the good of humankind and the life of any family. Thanks for stating so much so well in this thread.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Yes
breaking the law is a sin

 

[catharina]

Yes
breaking the law is a sin

I wish you well in your discernment.

I’ll guess that along the way someone who is advising you in that process might be able to enlighten you to the difference between laws of God and laws of man, between just laws and unjust laws. Even our national government recognizes the right of civil disobedience in regard to unjust laws. That human right supercedes unjust law.

 

[urban-hermit]

I don’t think these particular citizens of other countries we are discussing, Mexican nationals, are taking what we have not freely given, since they are “taking” what has been “offered” – work offered by US employers and citizens alike. I don’t argue this is right or just, it just IS, and I do have difficulty faulting them for accepting work that is offered when they are trying, like anyone else, to provide for their families.

Let’s pretend, purely hypothetically, that a Mexican national comes to the US illegally and presents a phony social security card in order to get a job. Neither he nor his family is in dire need in his home country. He simply wants to be paid what amounts, after being exchanged from dollars to pesos, to a lot more money to the folks back home in Mexico.

Would that be a sin on his part?

Yes, he cares for his family, and that’s good. Yes, he simply wants a better life (in terms of money), and that’s understandable. But the basic question remains:

Would obtaining a job under false pretenses (that he is legally allowed to work in this country), even though neither he nor his family is in dire need in Mexico, which is the most prosperous of all the latin american countries …

Would doing this be a sin?

I think when you answer this question objectively, without the desperate need to paint anybody who favors stronger immigration policy enforcement as a mean-spirited ignoramus, you will see why you are casting your civil disobedience net a bit too widely. And why there are so many good, well-informed people who will continue to disagree with you on this issue.

 

[RitaM]

Rom 13

Those who immigrate illegally are breaking the laws of two or more governments who have been put into power by God and as such they are then violating God’s law made known throught those government.

So Chinese people who won’t get abortions are also violating God’s laws? It is against the law for them to have more than one child.

 

[catharina]

Would obtaining a job under false pretenses (that he is legally allowed to work in this country), even though neither he nor his family is in dire need in Mexico, which is the most prosperous of all the latin american countries …

Would doing this be a sin?

I think when you answer this question objectively, without the desperate need to paint anybody who favors stronger immigration policy enforcement as a mean-spirited ignoramus, you will see why you are casting your civil disobedience net a bit too widely. And why there are so many good, well-informed people who will continue to disagree with you on this issue.

Abortion, assisting in abortion, is always a sin. Yet acc to the government it’s definitely not a crime in most circumstances. This nation long ago lost its power as “for the good of the people” in sponsorship of its laws. It’s clear that we are left to decide many issues with the guidance of Church leaders and with little regard for the regulations of the national law. We have left the day when supporting the law of the land is an exercise of moral certainty or can be trusted to lead to moral certainty.

 

[catharina]

So Chinese people who won’t get abortions are also violating God’s laws? It is against the law for them to have more than one child.

Great analogy. Leaders and law-makers are not flawless.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

To claim it is sin to immigrate illegally would be to claim the intrinsic justice of immigration regulations. I’m not able to do that since I have no reason to believe that the anti-immigration stance of the USA is any more valid than the anti-Life atance of the USA. To say or imply that a law is just by the fact of its mere existence is to act in defiance of both love and logic.

This solution is too general, & is a recipe for chaos, as well as being contrary to Catholic moral teaching.​

The question is not, are all laws enacted by authorities in the US & regulating immigration, just - but, does that specific law which forbids illegal immigration, have such a character that it is a sin to break it ?

Short answer: Yes. It is a sin to break that law. It is quite true that the enacting & existence of a law does not of itself guarantee that it is just - but the presumption is, that is just. The question is not about “all immigration policy” - it is about whether illegal immigration be sinful, or not. And it is.

There is a great difference between

• a law that allows a practice that is perceived, wrongly or rightly, to be unjust (such as abortion)
• a law that requires injustice to be done (such as the Nuremberg Laws discriminating against the Jews)
• a law that lays down an obligation that may be inconvenient: such as laws setting speed limits
• & so on…
  To compare laws forbidding certain sorts or conditions of immigration with laws allowing abortion, does not work: there is no obligation to have an abortion, but there is an obligation to observe immigration laws. And where there is a legal obligation, there may well be a moral obligation too. There is such a double obligation here - because there is no inherent injustice in the enacting of laws by a sovereign state for the protection of its borders: far from it; states are fully entitled to make such laws, for the preservation of their own integrity & security, & for that of their subjects. Indeed, they have a moral obligation to make such laws.

This is especially true in modern times, when lack of proper border controls can be prudently foreseen to allow grave evils to society to pass easily from one country to another; evils such as narcotics, terrorist groups, & the like. The only people who gain from Catholic impatience with laws for the preservation of the USA, are undesirables & criminals.

Granted, there may be exceptional circumstances which allow the breaking of (in the present case) laws forbidding illegal immigration - but no circumstances should readily be presumed to be exceptional. If there is any doubt on the matter, it is a safe rule-of-thumb that the case which prompts the doubt is not exceptional.

If all immigration policy is just in the USA then one might argue that to defy it is sinful; however even that line of reasoning cannot mean that anyone and everyone who acts against the policy is sinful by in such action. The law of God always overrides the law of the land when the two are in conflict.

The rights of states are derived from the Eternal Law of God - one cannot fulfil that God-given Law, by breaking it. People are apt to forget that states, no less than the Church, are founded on that Law.​

It’s Spirit versus letter of the law. One’s conscience must speak to the mercy and justice of God not man.

Where the law of the land (which in the US includes any of its competent organs, from the Supreme Court to State Capitols to county courts downwards) sets forth an obligation, it is an evasion to seek to escape from the obligation by appealing to the “spirit” of the law which expresses the obligation. No state or family could last ten minutes if such disregard for the expressed intentions of the law-giver were ignored in such a manner.​

There is something more - “One’s conscience must speak to the mercy and justice of God” is a game we can all play; that is why the idea is so destructive of society. With laws, we can know what we are to do, when, why, to whom, in what circumstances: but anyone can make anything, however foul, debasing or evil, sound good by appeals to “the spirit of the law”, or of this or that; it can mean anything. 250 million people playing that game of “ignore-the-law, appeal-to-the-spirit” does not build up a society - it rots it, because people are selfish & deeply unpleasant; it is only law that saves society from degenerating into a jungle filled with ravening beasts. Laws are our protection against the Hell in each of us - so it is irresponsible in the extreme to throw them aside.

 

[catharina]

It’s clear that we can agree to disagree. Never have I heard anyone suggest that allowing the Spirit of God to lead one’s formation of conscience is “a game” that people play - until you so suggested just now.

Because others have already quoted the documents of Vatican II and because most are quite familiar with the Holy Father’s John Paul II’s teachings on the intinsic value of every soul, including those who are named “illegal workers” by various govenments, let me say again, we clearly disagree. There do exist unjust laws, regulations that flow from entrenched racism and dictates that are against the growth of life. We in the most privileged country on the earth, the only nation that allows for the full protection of freedom of religion, might listen to the call to our conscience that would allow us to welcome others - or at the least to refrain from judging a behavior as sinful when it might not be so.

 

[verdigirl]

Well, since many of us that subscribe to these fora are orthodox, which means we accept the teaching of the Bishops, here is what they say on the entire matter:

The Church believes that current immigration laws and policies have often led to the undermining of immigrants’ human dignity and have kept families apart. The existing immigration system has resulted in a growing number of persons in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows as they toil in jobs that would otherwise go unfilled. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents must wait years for a visa to be reunited. And, our nation’s border enforcement strategies have been ineffective and have led to the death of thousands of migrants.

From the Justice for Immigrants campaign website at justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html

The Bishops also content that illegal entry into the US is not a criminal act, so in my mind, this is akin to a parking ticket.

Jesus used to poke at the Pharisees quite a bit, and would tell them often that they were more interested in the law and not interested in love or compassion. That’s really the issue here. Yeah, we’ve got laws, but they’re not just, and as Catholic Christians, we need to be concerned with finding a balanced solution that covers the needs of all, including our own workers. This is about justice.

Did you enjoy the clean public bathroom you may have used recently? How about the clean floors at Walmart? Or the landscaping job you may have admired recently?

If we work together, we can find a solution that benefits ALL.

 

[catharina]

Well, since many of us that subscribe to these fora are orthodox, which means we accept the teaching of the Bishops, here is what they say on the entire matter:

The Church believes that current immigration laws and policies have often led to the undermining of immigrants’ human dignity and have kept families apart. The existing immigration system has resulted in a growing number of persons in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows as they toil in jobs that would otherwise go unfilled. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents must wait years for a visa to be reunited. And, our nation’s border enforcement strategies have been ineffective and have led to the death of thousands of migrants.

From the Justice for Immigrants campaign website at justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html

The Bishops also content that illegal entry into the US is not a criminal act, so in my mind, this is akin to a parking ticket.

Jesus used to poke at the Pharisees quite a bit, and would tell them often that they were more interested in the law and not interested in love or compassion. That’s really the issue here. Yeah, we’ve got laws, but they’re not just, and as Catholic Christians, we need to be concerned with finding a balanced solution that covers the needs of all, including our own workers. This is about justice.

Did you enjoy the clean public bathroom you may have used recently? How about the clean floors at Walmart? Or the landscaping job you may have admired recently?

If we work together, we can find a solution that benefits ALL.

Relevant for all, do we enjoy the fresh produce that so many of us take for granted? Even friends and neighbors from western European countries declare themselves astonished when they are treated to a typically American meal or when they first enter an American grocery store. Our very food-supply is brought to us by workers who are, in many instances, here illegally.

 

[sprout]

QUOTE=urban-hermit;2731902…obtaining a job under false pretenses (that he is legally allowed to work in this country), even though neither he nor his family is in dire need in **Mexico, which is the most prosperous of all the latin american countries **…

:whacky:
Yes, and now with CAFTA it will grow even more so as you compare it to countries whose poverty is rapidly increasing.

I think when you answer this question objectively, without the desperate need to paint anybody who favors stronger immigration policy enforcement as a mean-spirited ignoramus, you will see why you are casting your civil disobedience net a bit too widely. And why there are so many good, well-informed people who will continue to disagree with you on this issue.

where have I desperately stated that those who favor stronger immigration enforcement are “mean-spirited ignoramuses”? besides I thought the question at hand was “Is it a sin to immigrate illegally?”

Objective to you means stronger immigration controls. Objective to me means recognizing our nations culpability in the displacement of jobs in Mexico and that we should be increasing hundredfold legal avenues for unskilled worker to come here as well as increaseing legal avenues for family reunification.

the word objective means:

expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

I have been “expressing or dealing with facts or conditions” much more so than many of the posters here including yourself. I am willing to look “outside” my personal feelings and prejudices as a US Citizen (subjective) and try and view the perspective from outside the US and the immigrants side(objective); I am willing to look at and have posted extensive objective data i.e. labor statisitics and projections, the effects of NAFTA, CAFTA, IMF, and SA’s. I am a registered Republican (subjective), but am willing to set aside my party politics (objective) and look first to what my Church/God teaches me:

1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:21

*A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.22 *

So as long as our nation rips families apart the way it has been doing; by deporting a mother, father, leaving children abandoned with no one to care for them then the “character” of the law is **unjust **according to God and the teachings of the Church and should not only be disobeyed but exposed and fought against.

So long as our nation intentionally keeps it’s legal quota for unskilled workers at 5000/yr with full knowledge that our labor needs demand 10x that amount of unskilled workers just so that they can keep these people in an “irregular” status then the quota is unjust as it does not serve the common good, and only serves man’s greed.

I personally, think of God as a loving and merciful God. I do not give man’s laws equal status with God’s laws and neither does the Church I belong to.

It is beholden upon me to leave the judgment of whether my neighbor is sinning up to God as I am commanded to do.

22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but hath given all judgment to the Son. 23 That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.

 

[catharina]

Well, since many of us that subscribe to these fora are orthodox, which means we accept the teaching of the Bishops, here is what they say on the entire matter:

The Church believes that current immigration laws and policies have often led to the undermining of immigrants’ human dignity and have kept families apart. The existing immigration system has resulted in a growing number of persons in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows as they toil in jobs that would otherwise go unfilled. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents must wait years for a visa to be reunited. And, our nation’s border enforcement strategies have been ineffective and have led to the death of thousands of migrants.

From the Justice for Immigrants campaign website at justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html

verdigirl,
thank you for taking the time and trouble to quote the bishops.

 

[Trader]

There may be circumstances that require a person to leave his homeland, but there are legal structures in the US for genuine refugees.

Maybe you should also ask if it is a sin to use forged documents to avoid just taxes, and to gain an employment advantage over a person who has obeyed the law.

Maybe you should ask if it is a sin to drive without a license and insurance, which unfairly puts the lives, health, and property of others at risk.

Very rarely is immigration itself the only criminal act involved with illegal immigration.