C
catharina
Guest
I must state that I fully believe that I am in accord with Church teaching on this point. There is no evasion in that. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that perfectly clear in my earlier responses.
Blessed be God.
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Blessed be God.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
I have to agree with Jack Fisher—you are using evasive responses— and by your prior response—are using a flawed understanding to promote what you call “sin of racisim”.
I must state that I fully believe that I am in accord with Church teaching on this point. There is no evasion in that. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that perfectly clear in my earlier responses.
Blessed be God.
If you are—then you should be aware that Church teaching states that gov’ts do have a right to implement legislation to protect its borders. I am positive that the Church knows who this legislation is going to affect. So that does throw you argument of “sin of racism” out of the boat.
J
Jack_Fisher
Guest
evasions noted, again. you have nothing to offer.I am responsible for my conscience before God as you are for yours. Blessed be God. If “the Board” asks for specific statutes from me, I might respond. At this point in relation to you (who has insulted me without benefit of apology) I think it’s safe to say that I recognize your mind is closed, at least on this issue.
In any event, God bless you.
this is very typical of the pro-illegal position. proponents of uncontrolled immigration climb on a high horse and moan about the unfairness of “the law” while demonstrating little, if any, familarity with the path to legal residency, non-immigrant visas, fairness-based restrictions on removal; always employing over the top, unjustifiable analogies and flawed reasoning, invoking Nazis and racism which works sometimes, but collapses when this bluff is called.
a final hallmark of the pro-illegal advocates is that they rarely offer practical solutions for their generalized goal of a perfectly just society.
and in the background looms the deplorable fact that providing an outlet for discontented Mexican workers is a steam dump valve that prepetuates the vast political, social and economic inequities that plague that benighted country and delays a Mexican solution to Mexican problems.
C
catharina
Guest
This thread is filled with quotes from Pope John Paul II, from Church documents and encyclicals, from today’s bishops in the USA. I have no need to re-invent the wheel for anyone who chooses to join the blind who will not see. They who have ears to hear, let them hear. Please re-read this thread.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
This thread is filled with quotes from Pope John Paul II, from Church dpcuments and encyclicals, from today’s bishops in the USA. I have no need to re-invent the wheel for anyone who chooses to join the blind who will not see. They who have ears to hear, let them hear. Please re-read this thread.
Actually—if you are using other information to re-interpret the Catechism to fit your agenda—you are re-inventing the wheel.
The Catechism is clear–on the gov’t right to implement legislation to protect its border and citizens.
C
catharina
Guest
Before God, I am responsible for the development of my conscience as you are for the development of yours.
Actually—if you are using other information to re-interpret the Catechism to fit your agenda—you are re-inventing the wheel.
The Catechism is clear–on the gov’t right to implement legislation to protect its border and citizens.
Case closed.
V
verdigirl
Guest
You know, Jack, the initial question of this thread was whether it was a sin to immigrate illegally. My position and that of others here is that if the law is unjust, then it’s no sin to break it. That also happens to be the position of the Church.this is very typical of the pro-illegal position. proponents of uncontrolled immigration climb on a high horse and moan about the unfairness of “the law” while demonstrating little, if any, familarity with the path to legal residency, non-immigrant visas, fairness-based restrictions on removal; always employing over the top, unjustifiable analogies and flawed reasoning, invoking Nazis and racism which works sometimes, but collapses when this bluff is called.
a final hallmark of the pro-illegal advocates is that they rarely offer practical solutions for their generalized goal of a perfectly just society.
and in the background looms the deplorable fact that providing an outlet for discontented Mexican workers is a steam dump valve that prepetuates the vast political, social and economic inequities that plague that benighted country and delays a Mexican solution to Mexican problems.
The Bishops themselves have already said that even though countries do have a right to restrict immigration and secure borders, the laws as we currently have them are broken and unjust. As a Catholic Christian, this is something you need to be concerned about. It’s the teaching of the Bishops. Are you claiming that their teaching is invalid? Please click on the link in my signature to read what their teaching on this subject actually is.
I do understand the current path to citizenship or even just legal residency. I have volunteered to help immigrants fill out their residency and citizenship applications on a few occasions. I like to think that I am somewhat aware of the ropes. Right now, there really is no good way for many undocumented workers to gain even legal residency. This status is linked to the legal status of other family members, and in the case of many of the people I know (and I personally know hundreds!), often their native-born child is a toddler and they would have to wait many years before their child is old enough to sponsor them. And so this is the limbo in which they wait. You know what else? These workers are the furthest thing from being discontented. They praise God for the opportunity to be here, in the deplorable working conditions that some of them face, despite the exploitation from some employers who take advantage of their legal status, and despite all of that, still see their situation as a blessing. For the first time they can actually feed and clothe their families and live in the dignity that all Christians deserve.
No, the discontented ones are people like me, Catholic Christians who are not content to stand by in the face of injustice. And incidentally, they’re coming to save the Church in this country. 74 percent of them are die-hard Roman Catholics who are not afraid to invoke the name of the Virgin in a public setting!
In the meantime, right now there are hundreds of minor, native-born American citizen children who are unsupervised and/or cared for by neighbors, left to their own devices because their parents were rounded up and possibly deported. Did you know that? Here’s an example from the LA Times.
If you are so concerned with the legality of the situation, what will you do to protect the rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for these fellow citizens? What will you do to protect THEIR constitutional rights?
You are absolutely right to bring up the economic problems of Mexico as a contributing factor to this situation. While we won’t argue the finer points of American interference in Latin America, I will pose this question to you. Will you simply sit around and wait for the Mexican government to get a clue, and only THEN work for justice?
You are also right that often those of us that are pro fairness in immigration laws don’t have a solution. But the Bishops do. And I like their solutions. They are:
- Global anti-poverty efforts
- Expanded opportunities to reunite families
- A temporary worker program
- Broad-based legalization of status
- Restoration of due process
Read the Bishops’ entire plan here.
Pax vobiscum, frater. I really do mean it.
S
sprout
Guest
nice speech, Jack. Something you apparently learned well as a campaign manager (70.87.34.114/showpost.php?p=2620504&postcount=99)
Problem is, this topic of discussion is “Is it a sin to immigrate illegally”. Catholics evaluate such through Church teaching, their Bishop’s (Pastoral) guidance, and the writings of the Holy Father since sin is God’s province.
Perhaps you could start your own thread if you want to discuss your political issues; “the path to legal residency, non-immigrant visas, fairness-based restrictions on removal”. I do recall all of these issues already having been thoroughly discussed earlier in this thread posts 65-72 on page 5 to refresh your memory 70.87.34.114/showthread.php?t=174727&page=5
I even recall you doing your own bit of “employing over the top, unjustifiable analogies and flawed reasoning”
Problem is, this topic of discussion is “Is it a sin to immigrate illegally”. Catholics evaluate such through Church teaching, their Bishop’s (Pastoral) guidance, and the writings of the Holy Father since sin is God’s province.
Perhaps you could start your own thread if you want to discuss your political issues; “the path to legal residency, non-immigrant visas, fairness-based restrictions on removal”. I do recall all of these issues already having been thoroughly discussed earlier in this thread posts 65-72 on page 5 to refresh your memory 70.87.34.114/showthread.php?t=174727&page=5
I even recall you doing your own bit of “employing over the top, unjustifiable analogies and flawed reasoning”
Originally Posted by sprout
Amazing how the anti-immigrant, xenophobic, spin doctors have such trouble reading what’s actually written.Originally Posted by Jack Fisher
amazing, the argument pro-illegal immigration advocates make that no one but our browned skinned brothers south of the border can do the Job of picking weeds in the hot sun.
It’s willing to do rather than can do. And he was talking about produce, not weeds!
J
Jack_Fisher
Guest
… or have an opinion, or defend it rationally, or offer concrete solutions.This thread is filled with quotes from Pope John Paul II, from Church documents and encyclicals, from today’s bishops in the USA. I have no need to re-invent the wheel …
I could think of a number of ways to amend the* Immigration and Naturalization Act *or the Code of Federal Regulations to make them more closely conform to Christian morality, its a shame that this dialog never occurs but discussions where this might happen are inevitably swamped by posturing and grandstanding.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Before God, I am responsible for the development of my conscience as you are for the development of yours.
Case closed.
Yes —we are responsible for the developement of our conscience–yet who is it that we turn to in order to form our conscience. Do we rely on our own interpretation of scripture and/or how certain people with an agenda interpret it-----or do we rely on the Church’s interpretation.
Some protestant denominations are ordaining women, are proponents of gay marriage etc.–yet all claim to interpret scripture.
The Church has interpreted what God has reveled to us—and She has spoken on the gov’ts rights.
V
verdigirl
Guest
Walking, you and I are lock-step on other fronts, but please don’t allow yourself to be short-sighted here. The US Bishops have already stated that nations have the right to restrict borders and limit immigration, and also:
Yes —we are responsible for the developement of our conscience–yet who is it that we turn to in order to form our conscience. Do we rely on our own interpretation of scripture and/or how certain people with an agenda interpret it-----or do we rely on the Church’s interpretation.
Some protestant denominations are ordaining women, are proponents of gay marriage etc.–yet all claim to interpret scripture.
The Church has interpreted what God has reveled to us—and She has spoken on the gov’ts rights.
The Catholic Bishops do not condone unlawful entry or circumventions of our nation’s immigration laws. The bishops believe that reforms are necessary in order for our nation’s immigration system to respond to the realities of separated families and labor demands that compel people to immigrate to the United States, whether in an authorized or unauthorized fashion.
Our nation’s economy demands foreign labor, yet there are insufficient visas to meet this demand. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents face interminable separations, sometimes of twenty years or longer, due to backlogs of available visas. U.S. immigration laws and policies need to be updated to reflect these realties.
(justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html))
My brother, this is the point we’re trying to make. It’s not enough to just say that we have the right to control the borders. As Catholic Christians we have to go one step further, and this is where the development of conscience comes in. We are choosing to abide by the teachings of the Church, who urge us to not stop just at controlling the borders. The Bishops and the Catechism are specifically telling us to look further than just the simple human-made law.
As Catarina has been saying, “Whoever has ears ought to hear.”
At the end of the day, we’ve already been given our guidelines when it’s time for our particular judgment. They are:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
(Matthew 25:41-43)
V
verdigirl
Guest
Walking, you and I are lock-step on other fronts, but please don’t allow yourself to be short-sighted here. The US Bishops have already stated that nations have the right to restrict borders and limit immigration, and also:
Yes —we are responsible for the developement of our conscience–yet who is it that we turn to in order to form our conscience. Do we rely on our own interpretation of scripture and/or how certain people with an agenda interpret it-----or do we rely on the Church’s interpretation.
Some protestant denominations are ordaining women, are proponents of gay marriage etc.–yet all claim to interpret scripture.
The Church has interpreted what God has reveled to us—and She has spoken on the gov’ts rights.
The Catholic Bishops do not condone unlawful entry or circumventions of our nation’s immigration laws. The bishops believe that reforms are necessary in order for our nation’s immigration system to respond to the realities of separated families and labor demands that compel people to immigrate to the United States, whether in an authorized or unauthorized fashion.
Our nation’s economy demands foreign labor, yet there are insufficient visas to meet this demand. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents face interminable separations, sometimes of twenty years or longer, due to backlogs of available visas. U.S. immigration laws and policies need to be updated to reflect these realties.
(justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html))
My brother, this is the point we’re trying to make. It’s not enough to just say that we have the right to control the borders. As Catholic Christians we have to go one step further, and this is where the development of conscience comes in. We are choosing to abide by the teachings of the Church, who urge us to not stop just at controlling the borders. The Bishops and the Catechism are specifically telling us to look further than just the simple human-made law.
As Catarina has been saying, “Whoever has ears ought to hear.”
At the end of the day, we’ve already been given our guidelines when it’s time for our particular judgment. They are:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
(Matthew 25:41-43)
It’s just so crystal clear to me.
J
Jack_Fisher
Guest
I learned argumentation from harder taskmasters than those in the political arena.nice speech, Jack. Something you apparently learned well as a campaign manager (70.87.34.114/showpost.php?p=2620504&postcount=99)
then there should be a single authoritative answer to that question with no room for debate or discussion of any kind, in which case this thread should have ended long ago, probably after one response. but in fact, its gone on and on as the thread examines a vexing social and moral problem.Problem is, this topic of discussion is “Is it a sin to immigrate illegally”. Catholics evaluate such through Church teaching, their Bishop’s (Pastoral) guidance, and the writings of the Holy Father since sin is God’s province.
cease obeying immoral law. what a fantasically counterproductive notion that is. but you can’t all be rosa parks, and saying that US immigration law is sinful is easier than actually proposing and debating the real world reforms that are demanded.
as for any of the pearls of wisdom I offered in my earlier postings, I suggest you learn from them. and I’m always flattered to be the subject of a Board research project. it makes me know I’m beloved by my fellow man.Perhaps you could start your own thread if you want to discuss your political issues; “the path to legal residency, non-immigrant visas, fairness-based restrictions on removal”. I do recall all of these issues already having been thoroughly discussed earlier in this thread posts 65-72 on page 5 to refresh your memory 70.87.34.114/showthread.php?t=174727&page=5
I adopt my tactics to the particular forum I’m in. this forum freely uses bloviating so I’m happy to conform to usage.I even recall you doing your own bit of “employing over the top, unjustifiable analogies and flawed reasoning”
V
verdigirl
Guest
Oops, sorry for the double post, folks. I got enter key happy.
V
verdigirl
Guest
So, Jack, let me pose one question to you. Are you choosing to ignore the Bishops’ teaching on this subject?then there should be a single authoritative answer to that question with no room for debate or discussion of any kind, in which case this thread should have ended long ago, probably after one response. but in fact, its gone on and on as the thread examines a vexing social and moral problem.
I adopt my tactics to the particular forum I’m in. this forum freely uses bloviating so I’m happy to conform to usage.
J
Jack_Fisher
Guest
I read it and am reading it again, V, and a detailed reply would be premature now. however, non-immigrant work visas combined with worker-rights reform and punitive measures towards non-complying employers are major, major parts of the solution.
whether those non-immigrant visas are on the path to legal permanent residency is different question.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Walking, you and I are lock-step on other fronts, but please don’t allow yourself to be short-sighted here. The US Bishops have already stated that nations have the right to restrict borders and limit immigration, and also:
The Catholic Bishops do not condone unlawful entry or circumventions of our nation’s immigration laws. The bishops believe that reforms are necessary in order for our nation’s immigration system to respond to the realities of separated families and labor demands that compel people to immigrate to the United States, whether in an authorized or unauthorized fashion.
Our nation’s economy demands foreign labor, yet there are insufficient visas to meet this demand. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents face interminable separations, sometimes of twenty years or longer, due to backlogs of available visas. U.S. immigration laws and policies need to be updated to reflect these realties.
(justiceforimmigrants.org/faq_cath_position.html))
My brother, this is the point we’re trying to make. It’s not enough to just say that we have the right to control the borders. As Catholic Christians we have to go one step further, and this is where the development of conscience comes in. We are choosing to abide by the teachings of the Church, who urge us to not stop just at controlling the borders. The Bishops and the Catechism are specifically telling us to look further than just the simple human-made law.
As Catarina has been saying, “Whoever has ears ought to hear.”
At the end of the day, we’ve already been given our guidelines when it’s time for our particular judgment. They are:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
(Matthew 25:41-43)
It’s just so crystal clear to me.
What I stated does not detract from the above. When I encounter someone in need – it does not matter what skin color–nationality, ect—I do what I can.
J
Jack_Fisher
Guest
no, see prior response.So, Jack, let me pose one question to you. Are you choosing to ignore the Bishops’ teaching on this subject?
V
verdigirl
Guest
Jack, thank you for taking the time to read the information. I feel blessed that you chose to!no, see prior response.
V
verdigirl
Guest
Understood. Will you urge your legislative representatives for fair resolution of this matter, based on the teachings of the Bishops?
What I stated does not detract from the above. When I encounter someone in need – it does not matter what skin color–nationality, ect—I do what I can.
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