Is it a sin to not be a martyr?

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I was reading about the persecution of Christians in India, and read an account of a women who was 7 months pregnant, holding her 1-year-old son when the mob surrounded her and demanded that she convert to Hinduism. She refused and the mob hacked her and her son to pieces.

I have to admit: if it were me, I would say whatever it took to save my child, not to mention my own neck.

Would this be a sin?
 
I was reading about the persecution of Christians in India, and read an account of a women who was 7 months pregnant, holding her 1-year-old son when the mob surrounded her and demanded that she convert to Hinduism. She refused and the mob hacked her and her son to pieces.

I have to admit: if it were me, I would say whatever it took to save my child, not to mention my own neck.

Would this be a sin?
Yes. To deny our faith is a sin.

It’s might not be mortal, given the coercion, but it is certainly sinful.

Here’s an answer to that question from Father Serpa.
May one renounce his faith if threatened with death?
If you were threatened with death (any example) and in order to save your life you had to denounce Christ as Lord, would you be considered in apostasy? I had this debate in bible study class and I said no. My reasoning is that God would understand the situation and his mercy is so great that he forgives those in that predicament. After all you were forced to say it . It wasn’t of your own free will. Also Christ forgave Peter who denied him three times under a less stressful situation than an immediate sentence of death.

Last edited by Fr. Vincent Serpa : Aug 6, '08 at 2:00 pm.
Rup
Re: apostasy
To lie is to loose integrity and the trust of others. It is to deny the truth of who one is. What we say is who we are. According to your train of thought, there was never a reason for any Christians to ever be martyred. But to deny the Lord to save one’s hide is a mortal sin and the worst possible thing one can do. God only forgives those who repent and intend to never do such a thing again. It was only after Peter repented that He was forgiven. Besides, he eventually did give his life for the Lord.
Sacrifice is the measure of love. We know how much we love others by how willing we are to put ourselves out for them. Our Lord said that you can have no greater love than to lay down your life for another.
The young high school girl in Colorado who was asked at gunpoint if she believed in God could have saved herself by saying no. But she said yes and became a martyr. What does it profit one to gain the whole world and suffer the loss of one’s soul?
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=259076
 
He said it was a mortal sin, though. I don’t see how that can be the case, if you’re being coerced into it. Particularly when you add in the bit about your child’s life, as well.
 
I just wondered something else: what if someone held a knife to your throat to rape you… if you don’t fight back, are you consenting to fornication?
 
I just wondered something else: what if someone held a knife to your throat to rape you… if you don’t fight back, are you consenting to fornication?
No, clearly not. In that case you’re being forced to have sex, no consent.

You can’t commit apostacy without consent, though.

A better analogy would be if someone said “rape that woman or I’ll kill you” or “kill that person or I’ll kill you”.

That would be sinful.

God Bless
 
No, the situation I’m describing is the knife is there to keep you from fighting back. If you fight back, you will die, but you won’t be passively consenting to the act.
 
No, the situation I’m describing is the knife is there to keep you from fighting back. If you fight back, you will die, but you won’t be passively consenting to the act.
You can’t really “passively consent”.

If, in one’s judgement, self-defence would be futile, you don’t have to fight. That’s not consent. He’d still be forcing the sex, you wouldn’t be an active partcipant.

Likewise, if silence or inaction would save you in the case of being threatened for being a Christian, you could remain silent.
If the mob was yelling “all Christians come out of their houses” you could stay hidden. You don’t have to volunterily identify yourself as a Christian, if doing so was unsafe.

What you can’t do is actively deny your faith.

God Bless
 
He said it was a mortal sin, though. I don’t see how that can be the case, if you’re being coerced into it.
The people are coercing that person to give an answer. Free will is present, and the answer can be Yes or No. So even though there’s coercing as you said, there’s still free will.

I can not recall which gospel, but Jesus said he who denies me before men, I will deny before my heavenly Father.
 
I was reading about the persecution of Christians in India, and read an account of a women who was 7 months pregnant, holding her 1-year-old son when the mob surrounded her and demanded that she convert to Hinduism. She refused and the mob hacked her and her son to pieces.

I have to admit: if it were me, I would say whatever it took to save my child, not to mention my own neck.

Would this be a sin?
Whether something is a sin, and the degree of sinfulness, can only truly be decided by God, who reads our hearts. However, when one dies as a martyr to the faith, one goes straight to heaven - one way ticket… no stop-offs. I can’t think of a better deal.!
He said it was a mortal sin, though. I don’t see how that can be the case, if you’re being coerced into it. Particularly when you add in the bit about your child’s life, as well.
The primary duty of a Catholic parent is to one day present his or her child to God, whether that be at the age of one day (or even pre-natally) in the case of tragic illness leading to the infant’s death, or 100 years (if that child has remained faithful) and the parent in heaven presents that child to God. In dying for her faith, this woman has fulfilled her role of Christian mother because she has presented her two children, unstained by sin, to God.
I just wondered something else: what if someone held a knife to your throat to rape you… if you don’t fight back, are you consenting to fornication?
The first thing that comes to mind is this:

St. Maria Goretti was not yet 12 years old… a daughter of poor sharecroppers, yet she knew right from wrong and resisted her neighbor, 20 year old Alessandro Serenelli, who was trying to rape her. As she was being stabbed (14 times), she kept crying out, “No! It is a sin! God does not want it!”

She suffered for 20 hours before dying, during which time she forgave and prayed for Alessandro.

Alessandro was immediately arrested and at trial was sentenced to only 30 years hard labor since he was still a minor when he committed the crime. Shortly after being imprisoned, a priest came to see him, but Alessandro turned on the priest in rage, howling like a maniac and lunging at him.

After six years of prison, Alessandro was near the brink of despair when one night Maria appeared to him in his cell. She was surrounded by lilies, the flower symbolic of purity, and she smiled at Alessandro. From that moment, peace invaded his heart, and he began to live a constructive life.

After serving his sentence, Alessandro took up residence at a Capuchin monastery, working in the garden as a tertiary. He asked pardon of Maria’s mother and accompanied her to Christmas Mass in the parish church where he spoke before the hushed congregation, acknowledging his sin and asking God’s forgiveness and the pardon of the community.

Forty years later, on June 24, 1950, Maria was canonized at St. Peter’s basilica in Rome, with Alessandro’s heart now firmly converted to the Lord. He attended her canonization.

Alessandro Serenelli died on May 6th, 1970 in the Capuchin monastery of Macerata. He left the following testimony, dated May 5, 1961, as his spiritual legacy:
"I’m nearly 80 years old. I’m about to depart.
"Looking back at my past, I can see that in my early youth, I chose a bad path which led me to ruin myself.
"My behavior was influenced by print, mass-media and bad examples which are followed by the majority of young people without even thinking. And I did the same. I was not worried.
"There were a lot of generous and devoted people who surrounded me, but I paid no attention to them because a violent force blinded me and pushed me toward a wrong way of life.
"When I was 20 years-old, I committed a crime of passion. Now, that memory represents something horrible for me. Maria Goretti, now a Saint, was my good Angel, sent to me through Providence to guide and save me. I still have impressed upon my heart her words of rebuke and of pardon. She prayed for me, she interceded for her murderer. Thirty years of prison followed.
"If I had been of age, I would have spent all my life in prison. I accepted to be condemned because it was my own fault.
"Little Maria was really my light, my protectress; with her help, I behaved well during the 27 years of prison and tried to live honestly when I was again accepted among the members of society. The Brothers of St. Francis, Capuchins from Marche, welcomed me with angelic charity into their monastery as a brother, not as a servant. I’ve been living with their community for 24 years, and now I am serenely waiting to witness the vision of God, to hug my loved ones again, and to be next to my Guardian Angel and her dear mother, Assunta.
“I hope this letter that I wrote can teach others the happy lesson of avoiding evil and of always following the right path, like little children. I feel that religion with its precepts is not something we can live without, but rather it is the real comfort, the real strength in life and the only safe way in every circumstance, even the most painful ones of life.”
Signature, Alessandro Serenelli
So, not fighting back might not be sinful… but fighting back can make you a Saint. I know which one I would choose.
 
I wonder if the situation would change if the woman were to, say, verbally assent to a conversion to Hinduism, gave it lip service but then secretely practiced Christianity i.e. lied about converting.

It seems to me then, that the only sin would be that of not telling the truth. The counter arguement would be that publically denying one’s faith is apostasy, of course, but what if such a forced conversion would all be based on a lie?

Given that situation, I can’t say I’d not lie to save my children’s lives. Alone, that’d be different, methinks, but I can’t imagine the terror of such a situation.
 
So, not fighting back might not be sinful… but fighting back can make you a Saint. I know which one I would choose.
As someone who has been sexually abused/assaulted on four seperate incidents in the past, I can honestly tell you that when the moment happens, it’s very hard to say what you will do. If it happened again, I don’t know what I would do. I say I would fight, but if threatened with a weapon or physically restrained, would I?

I don’t think for a moment that God counts the sin of rape as the victim’s. So I think it’s important for women to know that if they didn’t fight, they didn’t sin or do something wrong. There’s enough guilt that comes with sexual abuse, the last thing one needs to feel is that they failed God! I can’t think of a time when a woman needs God in her life more!

My two cents, of course.
 
I was reading about the persecution of Christians in India, and read an account of a women who was 7 months pregnant, holding her 1-year-old son when the mob surrounded her and demanded that she convert to Hinduism. She refused and the mob hacked her and her son to pieces.

I have to admit: if it were me, I would say whatever it took to save my child, not to mention my own neck.

Would this be a sin?
Martyrdom is a gift from God that should not be grasped at. But, yes to deny your faith to save your life or the life of another is a sin agianst God and your killers. I could not judge you or another for culpability due to the fear. As for myself I pray that I would be given the Grace to do what is right and sacrifice all knowing full well that the One Who gave life will restore it.
 
If the mob was yelling “all Christians come out of their houses” you could stay hidden. You don’t have to voluntarily identify yourself as a Christian, if doing so was unsafe.

What you can’t do is actively deny your faith.

God Bless
By cowering in your house instead of standing straight and proud outside, you are actively denying Jesus.

If all the Christians in your town were murdered that night, and you were still alive, how would you explain that?
 
Dont parents have a responsibility to protect their children?
If some mentally ill individual makes empty threats (saying this magic word will make you a hindu, ect.) are you willing to “prove your love for Jesus” by offering your kids up to basically a Molech?

The mad man has delusions of grandure to think his gunpoint “conversion” is doing anything. I don’t think in this case, refusing to fall for this mad man’s terror is apostacy. Its called common sense. Jesus knows if you have really rejected him or not, and he LOVES the little children and he is not here to protect them from harm so he gave us that job until he comes again.

Unless it was a legit situation, say where muslims took over your country, and demanded you to conform to their rituals and ways of life, I say no way to this idea of “martyr”.
 
Well, the way I see it (opinion) is that IF the ultimate goal in a person’s life was to ‘live’ on earth, and the ultimate goal of a parent was to protect the child’s physical life on earth as long as possible, then a parent should do whatever he/she can to protect that life, including ‘denying’ the faith if that denial ‘preserved physical life’

But as a Christian, while I certainly want to preserve my child’s physical life on earth as long as possible, I don’t think of that as the ultimate GOAL for my child.

As a Christian, my ultimate goal is not only to preserve and protect my child’s physical life, but to foster, preserve and protect my child’s spiritual life as well as my own.

If it came to where I could preserve my child’s physical life **only **by the repudiation of my (and his) **spiritual **life, in essence ‘killing’ the soul to preserve the ‘earthly life’. . .well the gospel is quite clear on this. This would be wrong. It would indeed be mortal sin.

This indeed is a perfect example of how people can take good thing (the protection of a child’s physical life) and make it into , falsely putting it into the position of the ‘ultimate good’ for the child, and thus making the critical error of ignoring the child’s spiritual ‘afterlife’.

The best, or only thing, for humanity is to know, love, and serve God with heart, mind, and soul, in order to be happy with Him in this world and the next.

Do you remember the girl in Columbine? Was she a fool for saying, “Yes I am a Christian” and being killed by two ‘delusional’ teens?
 
By cowering in your house instead of standing straight and proud outside, you are actively denying Jesus.

If all the Christians in your town were murdered that night, and you were still alive, how would you explain that?
No, you’re exercising prudence.

If someone is trying to kill you for your faith, and you run away, or fight back, that is fine.

For example, if a mob showed up at my house trying to get me to renounce my faith or kill me, a lot of them would get shot before they were able to martyr me (if the rest had the guts to keep coming). That would not be sinful. Less admirable than martydom, sure, but not sinful. Likewise, if my wife and I could get in the car and drive away, not sinful.

What is not fine is to deny your faith.

Martydom is admirable, not required. Apostacy is sinful.

God Bless
 
By cowering in your house instead of standing straight and proud outside, you are actively denying Jesus.

If all the Christians in your town were murdered that night, and you were still alive, how would you explain that?
luck. dame fortune.

perhaps you could give us an insight as to what you did when you faced that situation.
 
The foundations of HMC were watered with the blood of martyrs.

I wonder where our Church would be… I wonder *if * our Church would be… without those who preferred death to apostasy?
 
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