Is it a sin to pray with Protestants?

[NewsTheMan]

True. And every truth, expressed by humans [leaving divine inspiration out of it], is imperfect.

2+2=4?

no Christian tradition (which is what we are talking about in this thread) is “founded on errors.”

Except for Protestantism. No legitimate Christian tradition is founded on errors. Protestantism is by its nature, founded on errors.

Christianity is founded in the truth of Jesus.

Of course! Amen. But to be fully Christian is to be Catholic. Protestantism rejects much of Christianity.

Whether we should speak of non-Christian religions as “founded on errors” is another issue.

To say anything but the fact that non-Christian religions are founded on errors is heresy and would trample on Christ, His mission on earth and the Trinity.

Sure, if *that’s *all you are interested in.

But aren’t you interested in glorifying God to the maximum extent possible? Aren’t you interested in loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength? If so, why neglect any possible way in which God may be glorified?

Is this a joke? Really? So having heresy and schism and false beliefs “glorifies” God more? You speak as if anybody who is interested in the one true faith is taking away from God’s glory when in fact it is the opposite that is true. God is glorified in many ways, of course, but if the above is meant to be some sort of apologetic response for the ‘good’ of Protestantism it fails miserably.

Did people who belonged to the Catholic Church in 100 have everything they needed?

Yes. To believe otherwise is a Gnostic type of heresy.

If so, why bother defining the Trinity or the limits of the canon? Why bother developing the wonderful liturgical prayers of the Church?

Seperate issue. It’s not as if we define the Trinity to come to have salvation more fully.

Did people in 1000 have everything they needed?

Yes.

The Rosary is not necessary for salvation.

I’m sorry if the above comes off as not so charitable. I am just a little shocked by your post, but maybe with better explanation you could expand on it. Maybe I am missing something here or reading you wrong. I don’t want to misrepresent you.

The Protestant faith can teach Catholicism nothing. It’s important to remember that. However, perhaps individual Protestants may teach Catholics something about piety, morals or that kind of thing in a very broad sense.

 

[Morgan_Hiver]

NewsTheMan,
It is nice to see that someone here actually defends the truth. Why is it that so many act as if to deny protestantism is to not be a good Catholic? As if Christianity is made up of many different denominations and Catholicism is just the oldest one. Accepting protestantism is not going to enrich the church in any way. The Catholic church truly does have everything we need and to venture out into other religions does not show an open minded, secure Christian…rather it shows that there is still so much to learn about the church and we should spend that wasteful time doing so.

As far as sui iuris churches go, they are in full communion with Rome…their rites are not Roman but they have the rights of a Roman. And in regards to the valid Apostolic succession/holy orders of those not in communion with Rome, I’m assuming that you are referring to the Orthodox churches. Honestly, I have not delved far enough into this topic to even comment. I do know that they are the only ones considered valid. We can fulfill Sunday obligation there if in grave danger but we’re not to choose an EO Divine Liturgy over a Catholic mass. They also view protestantism as being invalid.

 

[NewsTheMan]

NewsTheMan,
It is nice to see that someone here actually defends the truth.

Same to you! I try my best.

Why is it that so many act as if to deny protestantism is to not be a good Catholic? As if Christianity is made up of many different denominations and Catholicism is just the oldest one.

False understanding of charity and ecumenism I think, mixed with an unwillingness to say it loud and proud as it were.

Accepting protestantism is not going to enrich the church in any way. The Catholic church truly does have everything we need and to venture out into other religions does not show an open minded, secure Christian…rather it shows that there is still so much to learn about the church and we should spend that wasteful time doing so.

Amen to that. Whatever truth we find in protestantism will inevitably have come from the Catholic faith in the first place. There is no need to look elsewhere. It’s not like we’re gonna wake up suddenly and say “Oh right, yeah, that Southern Baptist preacher has it right man, whatever he says is doctrine!”.

 

[Pulsifer]

My wife and I recently converted to Catholicism from the Episcopal Church but still attend their Bible Study and we are the only Catholics. When the Lords Prayer is done is it OK if I say it the way the Episcopal’s do or should I stop at the deliver us from evil?

 

[JReducation]

Thanks Br Jay.

Also, does this mean that SSPX priests may be granted faculties by their own Bishops who have authority?

No. Unfortunately, the SSPX bishops cannot grant faculties because

1. They have no canonical place in the Church.
2. They are suspended. A suspended priest or religious cannot exercise his office.
3. They are not diocesan bishops.
4. They are not consecrated religious superiors.

To have the authority to grant faculties within the Catholic Church they must meet at least 1 and 2. Even an auxiliary bishop cannot grant faculties. You must be either the diocesan bishop or the superior of a male religious community.

This does not apply to the Orthodox, because they are not Catholic.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

My wife and I recently converted to Catholicism from the Episcopal Church but still attend their Bible Study and we are the only Catholics. When the Lords Prayer is done is it OK if I say it the way the Episcopal’s do or should I stop at the deliver us from evil?

It’s fine.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Morgan_Hiver]

BR JR,
Can you please explain, in the most simple way you can, the validity of EO apostolic succession/holy orders? I tried to find info online but it is all very vague; ie EO ARE VALID. Why are they valid?

Thanks!

 

[Roy5]

Of course, Catholics and Protestants should pray together! Any other suggestion strikes me as unChristian and even anti-American. Otherwise, should the Catholic chaplain of the US House lead a Protestant majority in prayer when he prays at the opening of their sessions?

In this community and many others each Thanksgiving there is an ecumenical service at which Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims and others pray together. God bless them all. The more they pray together the more likely to destroy silly prejudices based mainly on a narrow, bigoted tribal arrogance. 

 We also have a Week of Prayer for Christian Unity in January, when Catholics and Protestants (and Orthodox) usually hold a joint service led by clergy of different Christian groups. A wonderful gathering. I try not to be judgmental when I say that Christians who will not pray with other Christians are judgmental themselves. The greater our sense of unity the more Christ must smile upon our efforts to serve him. Interestingly, the ones who are least likely to participate in such ecumenical services are independent evangelical Protestant churches. Like some Catholics, they feel that they alone have possession of the full truth.

 I am old enough to remember when Catholics were told to avoid the YMCA! The Ys in this area attracts thousands of Catholics, including many on their staffs. Is it still a sin to go to the Y? Ridiculous.

Let us make religion a bridge and not a barrier. Otherwise, we may preach Christianity but do we practice it? I don't think so.

 

[passer_by]

Communion in sacris refers to that which is sacred, usually the sacraments. For example, we have full communion with the Orthodox when it comes to sacraments. They are the same sacraments, equally valid and equally licit.

On the other hand, we are not to receive Holy Communion at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy nor are they to receive Holy Communion at a Catholic mass unless expressed permission is given by the proper authority. It must be understood that the Orthodox are not Protestants either.

With the Protestants, the only sacrament that we have in common is Baptism. Because they do not have validly ordained priests, they cannot validly celebrate any of the other sacraments. We don’t as close a communion on matters that are sacred as we do with the Orthodox. However, we do have communion in other areas such as Sacred Scripture, our faith in Jesus Christ and many of our moral laws.

As to praying with Protestants, it’s never a sin to pray with anyone. Prayer is prayer. If the other person is a pagan, you can certainly pray alongside them, but not engage in their prayers or rituals. It’s a little different with Jews and Muslims, since Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God, albeit that Jews and Muslims do not understand the Trinity nor the Incarnation, but it does not make him a different god. It’s an incomplete or imperfect understanding of God. Therefore, you will see the Holy Father pray along with Protestants, Jews and Muslims, as well as other saintly people.

Partiicpating in Protestant rituals is a little tricky. There is nothing wrong with visiting a Protestant community and praying with them. We often do it when we go to a funeral service, a wedding or even a Baptism, if they have a special Rite of Baptism. These are very special occasions and these are rituals that we have in common: marraige, Baptism and funerals. A Catholic does not need to attend a Protestant service on a regular basis, because everything that he will find in such a service + more is already found in the mass. It’s kind of silly to attend mass and regularly attend a Protestant church just to pray with Protestants.

Other opportunities present themselves to pray together. I work in pro-life ministry. We work very closely with many Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Orthodox Jews and Muslims, because all oppose abortion. We pray together outside of abortion clinics. It’s always funny, because the Catholics always pray the Rosary. It never fails that one of the non-Catholics comes over and joins us in the rosary, especially the Protestants. The Jews and Muslims shy away from it, because of the msyteries and because we say “Mother of God”. That’s a stumbling block for them. But they are always very respectful while we pray the rosary in front of these slaughter houses. We’re very respectful as they pray. It’s actually eaiser for us to join them, because there is nothing in their prayers that is a stumbling block for Catholics. They Muslims don’t pray to Mahhamed. The Jews don’t use audible prayers. The Protestants pray to Christ. That’s an example of shared prayer with non-Catholics.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I would like to add to this great reply by Br. JR that I think its not just enough to consider whether the act is intrinsically moral or immoral when it comes to this issue.

One would be right in considering the implications of others observing such participation in massive prayer services etc. This would be merely prudential judgement BUT is nevertheless important to avoid scandal.

So yes, Muslims, Jews, Protestants all believe in the same God. BUT, when it comes to interactions on faith matters, it is wise to also follow prudential judgement in order to avoid scandal.

The point of these events is not to suggest a (Muslim for an example) that his religious view is just as good as Christianity OR to indicate to other Catholics that the religion is an equally valid path to salvation. One must always keep this in mind and act with WISE judgement when deciding on these matters. If you give the wrong impression in the end, you might as well have not participated.

 

[passer_by]

Amen to that. Whatever truth we find in protestantism will inevitably have come from the Catholic faith in the first place. There is no need to look elsewhere. It’s not like we’re gonna wake up suddenly and say “Oh right, yeah, that Southern Baptist preacher has it right man, whatever he says is doctrine!”.

These are my thoughts exactly. I am at times baffled at Catholic Priests and Bishops who pursue ecumenism in order to discover other truths in other faiths and learn something from them.

I read this on a Vatican document once that said the following

“Some Catholics think that ecumenism compromises their faith and is an admission of an insufficiency in the Catholic Church, which they are not ready to accept.”

(the full document can be found here
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20041121_farrell-ecumenismo_en.html)

To me it sounded like the write was actually saying there is insufficiency in the Catholic Church and it is problematic that the faithful aren’t willing to accept that.

 

[JReducation]

I would like to add to this great reply by Br. JR that I think its not just enough to consider whether the act is intrinsically moral or immoral when it comes to this issue.

One would be right in considering the implications of others observing such participation in massive prayer services etc. This would be merely prudential judgement BUT is nevertheless important to avoid scandal.

So yes, Muslims, Jews, Protestants all believe in the same God. BUT, when it comes to interactions on faith matters, it is wise to also follow prudential judgement in order to avoid scandal.

The point of these events is not to suggest a (Muslim for an example) that his religious view is just as good as Christianity OR to indicate to other Catholics that the religion is an equally valid path to salvation. One must always keep this in mind and act with WISE judgement when deciding on these matters. If you give the wrong impression in the end, you might as well have not participated.

I’m assuming here that we’re not talking about a spectacle, but about very ordinary situations. As I said, my family is Jewish. I do attend Pasch, Rosh Hashanah, weddings, funerals, Bar Mitzvahs. There is nothing scandalous about it. If anyone believes that it’s scandalous to attend my nephew’s Bar Mitzvah, he or she has a problem.

I would apply the same rule to anyone who believes that it is a scandal to attend your Baptist brother’s wedding, etc.

Even when the Holy Father prayed at a synagogue, some people thought it was a scandal. The truth is that the Holy Father does not attend temple every Saturday morning.

These are my thoughts exactly. I am at times baffled at Catholic Priests and Bishops who pursue ecumenism in order to discover other truths in other faiths and learn something from them.

I read this on a Vatican document once that said the following

“Some Catholics think that ecumenism compromises their faith and is an admission of an insufficiency in the Catholic Church, which they are not ready to accept.”

(the full document can be found here
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20041121_farrell-ecumenismo_en.html)

To me it sounded like the write was actually saying there is insufficiency in the Catholic Church and it is problematic that the faithful aren’t willing to accept that.

I have never heard of anyone pursuing ecumenism to discover the truths in other faiths. If you mean to discover the Truth that we already posses, that’s a whole other story. They’re not looking for some unknown, but for what unites us. Once you find it, you can use it as a starting point.

The article in the document was referring to the insufficiency in the Catholic individual, not the Catholic faith. In other words, we must always be willing to do two things:

a) to accept that Catholic Truth transcends beyond the boundaries of the Catholic Church. Simply because Truth cannot be contained in a vacuum. God makes it available to all people through many means and to many different degrees.

b) to learn from others. We can always learn. Even though the fullness of Truth subsists in the Catholic Church, that does not mean that Catholics are perfect Christians and always know how to do it right.

This is what the document is saying. We don’t have to be afraid of learning something good, just because the teacher is not Catholic. The Truth will always be Catholic, no matter who teaches it. Truth can only come into the world through the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[paul11b]

Why does a Catholic sin against faith by taking part in non-Catholic worship? A Catholic sins against faith by taking part in non-Catholic worship, because he thus professes belief in a religion he knows is false.

1. It is wrong to be present at protestant or Jewish services even when we do not participate in them, because such services are intended to honor God in a manner He does not wish to be honored in. If He instituted a Church of his own, He must wish to be honored in the ways of that Church.

From My Catholic Faith: a Catechism in Pictures (a pre- Vatican II catechism).

I will leave the interpretation to you.

 

[JReducation]

BR JR,
Can you please explain, in the most simple way you can, the validity of EO apostolic succession/holy orders? I tried to find info online but it is all very vague; ie EO ARE VALID. Why are they valid?

Thanks!

The Eastern Orthodox are true Churches. They broke off from the Eastern Catholic Churches. However, when they broke off, they took with them bishops. These bishops ordained other bishops. They can trace their line of succession back to the Apostles without interruption. That makes their sacraments valid. Since they are not part of the Catholic Church, they are not bound by Canon Law. They are bound to their own laws approved by their synods and enforced by their Patriarchs. That makes them licit or lawful.

Why does a Catholic sin against faith by taking part in non-Catholic worship? A Catholic sins against faith by taking part in non-Catholic worship, because he thus professes belief in a religion he knows is false.

1. It is wrong to be present at protestant or Jewish services even when we do not participate in them, because such services are intended to honor God in a manner He does not wish to be honored in. If He instituted a Church of his own, He must wish to be honored in the ways of that Church.

From My Catholic Faith: a Catechism in Pictures (a pre- Vatican II catechism).

I will leave the interpretation to you.

You have to be very careful here. The wording in this catechism refers to worship. It is translated from the Latin, “cultus”. The question on the table is not about cult. Cult implies communion. The question on the table is about praying with.

For example, when the popes from Pius XII up to Benedict XVI have prayed with people of other faiths, they are not praying in communion with them. The event is an expression of fraternity, not of communion.

Communion (not Holy Communion) would be sinful, because it’s dishonest. Dishonesty can never do honor to God. Even saying it is an oxymoron. To worship in communion with a non-Catholic community makes a statement that you share the same faith. That’s not true. You may share many common beliefs, but there are also many differences that are irreconcilable. The CCC tries to clarify this by addressing the issue of imperfect communion. Since our communion is imperfect, we cannot share in one cult. God does not wish to be worshippe in an imperfect manner.

Yes, you can pray with people of other faiths. You cannot worship with people of other faiths, because you are not in full communion with them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Pope Pius XII did say “To be Christian one must be Roman. One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth”.

What does that mean in context? Without context, that quote is useless, because it seems to indicate that Protestants are not Christian. Obviously that’s not what Pope Pius XII would have meant, since Protestants are orthodox Nicene Christians, and Church teaching acknowledges Protestant baptisms as valid.

Heck, ripped out of context that quote would also exclude from the Catholic Church every eastern Catholic and indeed every Latin Catholic not part of the Church (Diocese) of Rome.

So please give context so that poor Pope Pius XII doesn’t have to roll over in his grave.

My wife and I recently converted to Catholicism from the Episcopal Church but still attend their Bible Study and we are the only Catholics. When the Lords Prayer is done is it OK if I say it the way the Episcopal’s do or should I stop at the deliver us from evil?

This is just my opinion, but go ahead and say it the way they do. Is there anything theologically wrong with praying to God the Father, “For thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, now and forever”? No, of course not. So it’s fine.

Why is it that so many act as if to deny protestantism is to not be a good Catholic?

Straw man. It’s not denying Protestantism that is problematic - rather, what is incompatible with Catholic Christianity at its best is intellectual sloppiness. And it is sloppy to issue blanket statements condemning Protestant Christianity. As Contarini said, we believe Protestants have some truth and some errors. Protestants are orthodox Nicene Christians, and their tradition, despite its grievous errors, does deserve more respect than some have given it here. (I am referring, of course, to classical Protestantism; fundamentalist types are, in my assessment, another matter…)

As far as sui iuris churches go, they are in full communion with Rome…their rites are not Roman but they have the rights of a Roman.

Why is this matter even being framed in analogies of being Roman? The eastern churches’ autonomy isn’t a “right of a Roman” as if to have autonomy is to be Roman…

As I said above, I don’t consider myself Roman at all. I belong to the Diocese of [my home city], not the Church of Rome. Being Catholic - even being Latin Catholic - does not make one “Roman.” Don’t forget that applying the adjective “Roman” to Catholics as a religious descriptor has its origins in a Protestant pejorative.

I do know that they are the only ones considered valid.

In addition to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Catholic Church also recognizes the validity of the Sacraments of the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the “Old Catholic Church,” and possibly one or two others…

We can fulfill Sunday obligation there if in grave danger but we’re not to choose an EO Divine Liturgy over a Catholic mass.

Technically there is no Sunday obligation if one cannot get to a church that is in communion with the bishop of Rome. But I wholeheartedly agree that if I were in such a situation, I would voluntarily choose to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy anyway because it is valid and beautiful.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

No. Unfortunately, the SSPX bishops cannot grant faculties because

1. They have no canonical place in the Church.
2. They are suspended. A suspended priest or religious cannot exercise his office.
3. They are not diocesan bishops.
4. They are not consecrated religious superiors.

To have the authority to grant faculties within the Catholic Church they must meet at least 1 and 2. Even an auxiliary bishop cannot grant faculties. You must be either the diocesan bishop or the superior of a male religious community.

This does not apply to the Orthodox, because they are not Catholic.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother, I have a question about this, something I can’t wrap my mind around.

Why are the SSPX considered to be Catholic if the Orthodox are not? Aren’t their canonical situations analogous in that both SSPX ministers and Orthodox ministers - while capable of celebrating Sacraments validly - have no canonical status in the Catholic Church?

I’m not implying that the SSPX should be considered capable of granting faculties. What I want is to be able to explain in a way that is logical why Orthodox bishops do indeed have the authority to grant faculties (which I wholeheartedly agree with) while SSPX bishops do not (which I also wholeheartedly agree with you on).

I want to be able to hold both, but I’m not sure how to understand why the SSPX - who are not in communion with Rome - should be regarded as having a different status than the Orthodox.

Perhaps your point 2 and point 3 above are enough? After all, an Orthodox bishop does have an eparchy/diocese, right? And isn’t “suspended” in any sense. Which makes him unlike an SSPX bishop, right?

Yes, you can pray with people of other faiths. You cannot worship with people of other faiths, because you are not in full communion with them.

I appreciate the distinction, but is full communion absolutely necessary? To be more specific:

Is it wrong to say that a Catholic Christian could worship with an Orthodox Christian?

What about one of the eastern Catholic churches that has an intercommunion agreement with its corresponding Orthodox church? I think the Ukrainian Catholics and the Ukrainian Orthodox might have something like this… or maybe it was the Coptic Catholics and the Coptic Orthodox, I’m not sure. In any case, I remember one such example where these eastern churches worked out an arrangement by which their adherents were allowed without further canonical boundaries to regularly receive each other’s Sacraments. In such a situation are the eastern Christians really not worshiping with each other?

Sorry for the nitpicky question; just wanting some clarification!

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

This does not apply to the Orthodox, because they are not Catholic.

Or to simplify my question:

If the SSPX get to “count” as Catholics despite their lack of communion with Rome, why don’t the Orthodox get to count as Catholics?

As I hope you can see, I’m not trying to find a way to impose Roman canon law on the Orthodox; on the contrary, I’m wrestling with an implication that seems unfair to me: that the SSPX despite their schism somehow get to “count” as Catholics in a way that the Orthodox don’t…

Sorry for the terminological imprecision of my question; it’s due to my ignorance of canonical matters…

 

[TrueLight]

Yes, you can pray with people of other faiths. You cannot worship with people of other faiths, because you are not in full communion with them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother, can you help me see the difference between praying and worshipping with non-Catholics? I cannot see it.

A Protestant worship service also contains a time of prayer, as well as singing songs of worship and reading scripture. Although of course, the sermon can be full of error. Is that the difference?

In the same way, a Protestant praying out loud with a group can also pray in a way that contradicts some Catholic teaching. Prayer services usually include worship songs, which may or may not contradict teaching, and may also include a short “word” that may contradict Catholic teaching.

So what is the difference?

 

[hazcompat]

PRAYER BEGINS IN HEAVEN!

peace

 

[SecretGarden]

When it comes to thinking about Protestants regardless of denomination what denomination they are from, it is important to remember that they are also Christians and therefore your other brothers and sisters in Christ. Being a former protestant, I still love my old denomination which means I love praying with them. They are amazing people, many full of the light of Christ. I think as Catholics we should pray with them. We should also attend their services every now and then. God doesn’t only live inside the Catholic church, he lives in all Christian churches and beyond. There are some doctrinal differences but that shouldn’t prevent us from coming together in fellowship, in prayer and worship. If one was to look at all Christian services including our own, all have these components. It’s what helps to unite us to Christ.

Talking in tongues is biblical and it isn’t inclusive to the Protestant churches in general either. It happens inside the Catholic Church. I once knew a nun who had that gift. I know several Catholics who do have it and it comes out when the spirit flows.

I think some of us need to stop hating the Protestants and start loving them because if we want them to love us, someone needs to start somewhere and it minus as well be us.

 

[VivienneJ]

Each time I read the title of this thread I’m reminded of something that happened in the town I lived in about 10 years ago. I’ve typed and deleted many responses, maybe this will help to differentiate between “pray with” and “worship with”.

It was at the time of general elections and there was the expectation of violence surrounding these particular elections. People had been praying beforehand for peaceful elections, and indeed, miraculously, we had that.

In my hometown the priest/pastors/leaders of all the Christian churches used to meet monthly, and they organised, in the week following the elections, prayers of thanksgiving which were hosted by a different church each day for the whole week.

It was a time of giving thanks together and an uplifting time as well. Of course each service had the particular “flavour” of that groups typical approach to prayer. I personally found the Pentecostal-type church’s service to be far too busy and noisy for me and found a quiet spot where I could pray in the way I was familiar with; by the same token some of the members of that church very noisily walked out of the Anglican service as they found it too contemplative for them. But we all prayed together, giving thanks with each other during that week.