Is it a sin to tell a stalker your seeing someone?

[LilyM]

If you don’t want to end up like St. Maria Goretti, follow what others have said and do whatever you can to protect yourself. I’m sure St. Maria Goretti wouldn’t have wanted to die that way if she had a choice, but her rapist was busy choking and stabbing her. Besides, she became a saint because of the forgiveness she had shown to her rapist, not because she was a victim.

Lying would not be a mortal sin in this case because of the circumstances, but I agree that you need more than that and you should tell your manager and make sure you aren’t alone.

This, coming from someone who has a first-class relic of the saint.

Uhhh … with all respect, the attack on St Maria Goretti hardly happened out of the blue. She and her family well knew for quite some time beforehand that Alessandro was very keen on Maria in a very unhealthy way. It hardly took a genius to figure out the danger there.

As has been pointed out, she could have submitted and saved her skin. But her concern was not just for her own soul, but on resisting for the sake of preventing HIM from committing sin - as she kept telling him.

While I won’t go so far as to say she actively sought martyrdom, she (they?) certainly put kindness to a young man who needed work above personal safety. Which is a fine and noble thing to do - many saints have done the same by working in dangerous city slums, or desperately poor third-world countries.

 

[Arclight]

I would suggest that she could have chosen to submit willingly to her rapist’s sexual demands,…

Submitting to rape a a preferable alternative to lying? Totally, utterly unacceptable.

The timepiece just stuck 13 o’clock for you.

 

[JPUSC]

Uhhh … with all respect, the attack on St Maria Goretti hardly happened out of the blue. She and her family well knew for quite some time beforehand that Alessandro was very keen on Maria in a very unhealthy way. It hardly took a genius to figure out the danger there.

As has been pointed out, she could have submitted and saved her skin. But her concern was not just for her own soul, but on resisting for the sake of preventing HIM from committing sin - as she kept telling him.

While I won’t go so far as to say she actively sought martyrdom, she (they?) certainly put kindness to a young man who needed work above personal safety. Which is a fine and noble thing to do - many saints have done the same by working in dangerous city slums, or desperately poor third-world countries.

Yeah, so you can’t compare this situation to the poster who is trying to avoid contact with a stranger, not someone she is already familiar with. I’m sure Maria tried her best to resist Alessandro for a while, but he just couldn’t help himself that fateful day.

And about preventing him from committing sin, Alessandro still commited a far serious sin by murdering her. The poster lying to her stalker will, in effect, also cause the man not to commit a sin.

Plus, I don’t there there were such things as restraining orders in Maria’s time.

 

[LilyM]

Submitting to rape a a preferable alternative to lying? Totally, utterly unacceptable.

The timepiece just stuck 13 o’clock for you.

You’re really not getting this, are you? Lying wasn’t an option for her, her attacker lived with her family and knew enough about her to know if she tried to lie about having a boyfriend, a dog or whatever.

But she COULD have submitted to the rape instead of resisting and saved her life. Point is she chose not to because there ARE things that are far more important even than mortal life - as Our Lord teaches “Whosoever shall seek to save his life, shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose it, shall preserve it.” (Luke 17:33)

So the attitude of ‘whatever it takes’ is totally unChristian.

 

[Scottgun]

Submitting to rape a a preferable alternative to lying? Totally, utterly unacceptable.

The timepiece just stuck 13 o’clock for you.

Well maybe I’m misunderstanding you. You could ask for clarification instead of the 13 o’clock comment which seems like gratuitous snark. I’m not trying to bust anyone’s chops after all, I just want to be correct. The assertion was made that I have no business at all giving advice about such and such. I submit I do have business reminding people what the Church teaches if someone is speaking wrongly. So I will simply restate what I have already said: The Church teaches that lying is objectively wrong (and referenced the CCC passages). When something is objectively wrong, it means that neither subjective intentions nor relative circumstances can make it right. I never said it was easy to live up to the teachings, but that is what it is and no one has shown anything to the contrary.

 

[LilyM]

Yeah, so you can’t compare this situation to the poster who is trying to avoid contact with a stranger, not someone she is already familiar with. I’m sure Maria tried her best to resist Alessandro for a while, but he just couldn’t help himself that fateful day.

And about preventing him from committing sin, Alessandro still commited a far serious sin by murdering her. The poster lying to her stalker will, in effect, also cause the man not to commit a sin.

Plus, I don’t there there were such things as restraining orders in Maria’s time.

There WERE such things as policemen, and there were males in the household who would’ve been strong enough, and probably willing, to defend her if she’d asked.

At any rate, possibly she didn’t know that he would really stab her, and DID think that reminding him that he would sin by raping her would be enough. And that she COULD have saved her life, as arclight is suggesting the OP do, only by submitting instead of lying.

As for ‘he just couldn’t help himself’ - that’s a totally unworthy and untrue thought. I believe he was imprisoned, so it seems even the courts didn’t go as far as to say that.

Point is a good end doesn’t justify sinful means - and lying is always a sin, an offence against Jesus who is truth as much as he is life.

 

[JPUSC]

Well maybe I’m misunderstanding you. You could ask for clarification instead of the 13 o’clock comment which seems like gratuitous snark. I’m not trying to bust anyone’s chops after all, I just want to be correct. The assertion was made that I have no business at all giving advice about such and such. I submit I do have business reminding people what the Church teaches if someone is speaking wrongly. So I will simply restate what I have already said: The Church teaches that lying is objectively wrong (and referenced the CCC passages). When something is objectively wrong, it means that neither subjective intentions nor relative circumstances can make it right. I never said it was easy to live up to the teachings, but that is what it is and no one has shown anything to the contrary.

If killing for the sake of self-defense is not considered a sin by the Catechism, then the sin of lying for the sake of self-defense would be greatly diminished if it’s a sin at all.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

 

[LilyM]

If killing for the sake of self-defense is not considered a sin by the Catechism, then the sin of lying for the sake of self-defense would be greatly diminished if it’s a sin at all.

It’s NEVER OK even to commit the most venial of venial sins, or to teach others to do the same. Killing, unlike lying, is taught NOT to be objectively wrong, as there are numerous circumstances where culpability IS completely removed or even (as in defence of family) where it is a positive duty to defend even to the point of killing another. The same is NOT taught about lying.

 

[JPUSC]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. **By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, **a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

The Catechism says that lying is a sin when it hurts the one who is being lied to and he suffers harm and is led into error. There is no failure in justice and charity for the poster to make up an excuse to avoid the person. That person has no right to that information.

The poster would suffer more than the stalker if she didn’t lie. *The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies. *The intention of the poster is for self-defense, not to cause harm to the person.

 

[Arclight]

You’re really not getting this, are you? Lying wasn’t an option for her, her attacker lived with her family and knew enough about her to know if she tried to lie about having a boyfriend, a dog or whatever.

I’m not talking about your saint.

 

[eddiefernandez2]

I don’t know which is stranger, the behavior of this man, or the comments of some of these posters.

This man assaulted you. He needs to be prosecuted. Get a restraining order and have him arrested the next time he shows his face. Quite possibly, if he has bothered others, they will go find him and arrest him. You must insist on this. Be smart.

Also, do not leave work alone, and don’t make yourself vulnerable. Carry something to defend yourself with. You should not tolerate this man being within 50 feet of you, again. Also, be careful he doesn’t know where you live or follow you home. You must show firmness and resolve. These people are opportunitsts, and will back off if they can’t get away with it. At least I hope he isn’t that aggressive. He sounds very aggressive. Almost reckless. This is to your advantage.

Please post back and tell us what you have done because I am sincerely concerned for you.

 

[Arclight]

Well maybe I’m misunderstanding you. You could ask for clarification instead of the 13 o’clock comment which seems like gratuitous snark. I’m not trying to bust anyone’s chops after all, I just want to be correct. The assertion was made that I have no business at all giving advice about such and such. I submit I do have business reminding people what the Church teaches if someone is speaking wrongly. So I will simply restate what I have already said: The Church teaches that lying is objectively wrong (and referenced the CCC passages). When something is objectively wrong, it means that neither subjective intentions nor relative circumstances can make it right. I never said it was easy to live up to the teachings, but that is what it is and no one has shown anything to the contrary.

Its no more gratuitous than your earlier misrepresentation of my comments. So, quid pro quo.

And, to be clear, if a lie would reduce the risk of a rape, your advice to a women would be to submit to the rape rather than lie to the rapist?

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I don’t know which is stranger, the behavior of this man, or the comments of some of these posters.

This man assaulted you. He needs to be prosecuted. Get a restraining order and have him arrested the next time he shows his face. Quite possibly, if he has bothered others, they will go find him and arrest him. You must insist on this. Be smart.

Also, do not leave work alone, and don’t make yourself vulnerable. Carry something to defend yourself with. You should not tolerate this man being within 50 feet of you, again. Also, be careful he doesn’t know where you live or follow you home. You must show firmness and resolve. These people are opportunitsts, and will back off if they can’t get away with it. At least I hope he isn’t that aggressive. He sounds very aggressive. Almost reckless. This is to your advantage.

Please post back and tell us what you have done because I am sincerely concerned for you.

If you think some of the comments here are strange, check out the threads re. women & modesty…
Atilla The Hun would seem progressive.

 

[Scottgun]

I don’t know which is stranger, the behavior of this man, or the comments of some of these posters.

I’m not sure who you had in mind here, but it helps to divide reponses on a Catholic forum between *pastoral *answers (what practically to do) and what I’ll call for lack of a better word, academic answers. Both are likely to show up on any given thread, so it helps to get used to it. Most of the practical advice, (save the lying) makes sense, and we’ll certainly pray for her.

 

[Scottgun]

Its no more gratuitous than your earlier misrepresentation of my comments. So, quid pro quo.

If there was a misrepresentation, I assure you it wasn’t deliberate.

And, to be clear, if a lie would reduce the risk of a rape, your advice to a women would be to submit to the rape rather than lie to the rapist?

Don’t lie. Don’t submit to rape. That’s it.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Somewhere here the point got lost.

Taking the original comment at face value and not as flame bait…

I have a very close relative who was stalked. The FBI was involved because the person crossed state lines to do it. It was totally unbidden and in circumstances a little similar. He was a former mental patient. He was caught and prosecuted. And recommitted It was terrifying for my family.

The stalked one had a boyfriend. Didn’t matter.

Why would you even lie? So as not to hurt his feelings? Make him feel better about rejecting his advances?

If he brings you flowers, unceremoniously dump them in the trash can in his face and tell him no thank you.

Someone who would grab you and kiss you is assaulting you. That should have been reported to the manager and the police. If the manager views his customer as more important than your safety, look for another job tomorrow.

Whatever paper he gave or signed, or whatever invoice he touched, turn it over to the police. It has his fingerprints. They might want that on file in case you disappear someday. Or your house is broken into while you sleep.

You can’t fight evil with more evil. Lying doesn’t stop evil.

The commandments say “Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not do murder.”

Different word for murder and killing. Different meaning. God never said one couldn’t defend oneself with lethal force if it came to that.

God did say one mustn’t lie.

A real stalker doesn’t care what story you invent. Trust me.

I bet this man has assaulted other people and left a trail of fingerprints elsewhere. By prosecuting him, you may or may not be protecting yourself. But you will be protecting someone in the future who may not be as smart as you.

A stalker is not sane. Follow the advice from one of the other posters and look up online how to protect yourself.

This could be serious stuff. For all you know, he has a room full of cell phone pictures of you and your house and everything about you.

 

[LilyM]

The Catechism says that lying is a sin when it hurts the one who is being lied to and he suffers harm and is led into error. There is no failure in justice and charity for the poster to make up an excuse to avoid the person. That person has no right to that information.

It doesn’t say that at all. It says that by its very nature lying is to be condemned - that means in any and every circumstances. Always a sin. It simply says the GRAVITY of that sin is measured by the factors you mention.

Sure, there is no failure in justice and charity in witholding information when someone has no right to it. There is very much a failure in justice and charity in making up a non-existent boyfriend or dog. Read the catechism again - it’s the very act of leading the neighbour into thinking something is true when it is not that IS in itself the failure in justice and charity.

The poster would suffer more than the stalker if she didn’t lie. *The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies. *The intention of the poster is for self-defense, not to cause harm to the person.

The circumstances of this case are that the poster need not lie at all to protect herself. Report the stalker to the police, get a restraining order, make sure not to walk around alone etc. So it doesn’t logically follow either that she MUST lie to avoid harm, let alone that failing to lie is more harmful.

All of the above circumstances weigh heavily in the scales against lying.

 

[Ceil-1]

I had a young man try to “hook up” with me in college. He was with his friend who was an acquaintance of friends in my group. He began while we were in the nightclub. The people I was with just allowed him to bother me, and showed no signs of helping me out of the situation. In fact, they thought it was rather funny.

I left alone, hoping to make it back to my dorm. He followed me, and caught up with me almost at my door. Just outside the door was a car that turned out to be his car, and he shoved me into it, and began to drive away to a secluded place.

To make a long story short, I talked him into taking me back. He was obviously a desperate guy who wanted to show his friends what he was capable of. I felt sorry for the poor guy. The next day, he sought me out and apologized to me. It was all very bizzare, but, what really shocked me was how easily he could have caused harm to me, if he had been so inclined. I learned a lesson, and never came that close to harm again.

We must avoid putting ourselves into harm’s way like this. Something in your mannerism made him feel comfortable and powerful enough to get away with this. Pray to your guardian angel, and you will be protected, and also be given some wisdom to deal with this disturbed individual. You may also pray for him as he obviously has issues.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Ceil, I hope you also changed your college “friends” after that.

They weren’t friends.

 

[Highwayhound]

Okay, I am a little bit late on this, but I read mention of St. Maria Goretti and would add my comments. Please forgive me if any of my facts are slightly off as my book is at the church in my classroom. My class and I are reading about St. Maria Goretti.

St. Maria Goretti was an 11 year old (nearing 12) girl who had recently received her First Communion. Because of her father Luigi’s death due to malaria her mother Assunta had to work in the fields. Maria took over care of the house, cooking, younger siblings, etc. at the age of 9. She had no formal schooling and learned her prayers by memorizing them.

The Goretti family had moved to the area of Nettuno in search of a better life. Financial hard times caused Luigi to enter into a partnership with Giovanni Serenelli, whose 18 year old son Alessandro, was with him. The two family shared the 2nd story of Count Mazzoleni’s old cheese factory. Each family had separate sleeping rooms and shared a kitchen/living room.

Prior to the date of the murder Alessandro had harassed the young Maria many times with lewd remarks and there was at least one other incident. This other incident caused Maria to run scared and hide underneath the hay in a barn. Let me also state that Alessandro had posted around his sleeping area several photos which are described as being smutty or pornographic (according to the standards of the times).

Now the elder Sereneli was 60 years old and by the reports I have read no match physically for his son. Alessandro mother attempted to drown the boy in a well when he was young. This is all I know of his mother. So the boy had no guidance and his family had some dark secrets.

Now as to the events of the murder. Maria was busy mending clothes and watching her infant sibling. Alessandro, who was busy on controling the horse cart (which was being run over the beans(?) for lack of a thresher) gave the reins to Assunta and headed to the house. He found Maria at the top of the stairs with the infant (his father was napping underneath the stairs). He went inside to get his weapon (a file ground down to something resembling an ice pick) and the returned to the stairs, pulled her into the kitchen and threatened her.

Maria knew she was in trouble. She told her attacker, “NO, Alessandro, God does not want this. It is a SIN!!” For this the little girl received 11 puncture wounds (none of them fatal). Alessandro went to his room after this. Maria tried to get out, but was heard. Alessandro returned and stabber Maria 3 more times. These 3 wounds were the fatal wounds.

Several hours later a 7 mile horse drawn ambulance ride ensued and Maria was taken to a hospital (in Nettuno?). Due to the types of wounds she had she was denied water ( I forget the exact reason as to why). The preist told her that Jesus did not have water when he was crucified. This comforted her as she dearly loved Jesus. How do we know this? At the First Communion when asked what they wanted several girls stated they wanted good husbands or some such thing. Maria when asked by the priest said she wanted to receive Jesus again. This the preist allowed (apparently at the time not even nuns received the eucharist every week).

While in her hospital bed Maria was asked about Alessandro. She told everyone that she forgave Alessandro and wanted him to be with her in Heaven. 30 years later after Alessandro was let out of prison (he was too young for the Italian death penalty) Maria’s mother Assunta forgave him too.

While in prison Alessandro saw Maria one night. She carried with her 14 lilies. She gave these to Alessandro one at a time and each turned to a light. It was after this that he recanted his false story about Maria and he became a Christian.

At the moment of truth this young girl chose purity and she chose forgiveness. Now God forgive me if I am wrong, but I would think Saint Maria would chose the virtue of truth as well.

God bless