Is it a sin to want to be wealthy?

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Agnieszka said:
Wealth is anything other than poverty. (financially speaking of course) You are wealthy when you have adequate shelter, when you have enough to eat, when you can clothe yourself and your family, when you can educate your children by sending them to school and when you can afford medication. Sorry, but i think its as simple as that. Then you have degrees of wealth, but in any event you are wealthy in the eyes of Jesus if you are not poor.
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Jesus and his family were skilled artisans. They built houses and furniture and other products made of wood.

Definitely not poor.

Their friends owned fishing boats and nets and had their own businesses.

When Jesus wanted to feed the multitude, one of his disciples said it would cost a year’s income to feed them. Clearly: someone who knew the meaning of a denarius.
 
Wealth.

What is wealth? Who is rich? Who is middle class?

Wealth is simply assets. Not assets more than a certain amount, but just any asset is wealth. Assets are merely things.

We measure wealth in monetary amounts. In this country, dollars.

So if you own a thousand dollars worth of “stuff”, but owe two thousand dollars in debt, then you have no net assets and, by arithmetic, you have no wealth.

So … who is rich?

Try this stream of thought:

Middle-class might be people who are able to take time off from work. They don’t have to account for every hour. They are responsible for getting results. The company they work for may provide them with tools that seem extravagant to the rest of society … for example, they may get to travel in a Learjet. Have YOU ever travelled in a Learjet? Learjets are cramped. You can’t walk around in them; you sort of have to scuttle around bent over. Some executive jets don’t even have bathrooms. But Learjets are fast. They get the passengers to their destinations quickly. These people do work long hours. They travel a lot. But they don’t get paid by the hour. They may be the factory and corporate managers. So that’s my definition of midde-class.

ANYONE who gets paid by the hour is, by definition, poor. They have to account for their time. If they don’t work (and don’t get their hourly pay), then they have NO INCOME. If they don’t work, they starve. It is possible that they do have a fair amount of money socked away for days when they can’t work. So they may not starve the next day. but the fact remains: no work, no pay. They have to fill out time sheets or time cards.

So, what makes someone rich? The rich travel, not on cramped little Learjets, but rather on converted airliners. They don’t carry suitcases; their clothing is kept for them at various locations, perhaps they have houses or apartments at those places. The rich have staffs of lawyers and accountants … they can actually change the laws to accommodate their needs and wants. The rich don’t have insurance; their assets are held in trusts. Trusts are protected asset classes; if you sue someone, for example, over a car accident, you may find that the only asset in that particular trust is the car. Anyway, the rich privately OWN factories and corporations; they employ the middle-class managers and executives … and the people who do the hands-on work in those factories and offices are the working poor.

So who are those who live in cardboard boxes,may be suffering from acute mental illness, and eat at soup kitchens or worse? Those are the poorest of the poor.
 
So I can buy a Lear jet and still not be considered rich. Cool… How much are those things anyway ???

On second thought maybe I’ll just fly economy class.😛
 
wcknight said:
So I can buy a Lear jet and still not be considered rich. Cool… How much are those things anyway ???

On second thought maybe I’ll just fly economy class.😛
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If YOU buy the Learjet, you’re rich.

BUT, if the company flies you around on the COMPANY jet, then you’re just a highly paid peon.
 
Al_Masetti said:
Wealth.

What is wealth? Who is rich? Who is middle class?

Wealth is simply assets. Not assets more than a certain amount, but just any asset is wealth. Assets are merely things.

We measure wealth in monetary amounts. In this country, dollars.

So if you own a thousand dollars worth of “stuff”, but owe two thousand dollars in debt, then you have no net assets and, by arithmetic, you have no wealth.

So … who is rich?

Try this stream of thought:

Middle-class might be people who are able to take time off from work. They don’t have to account for every hour. They are responsible for getting results. The company they work for may provide them with tools that seem extravagant to the rest of society … for example, they may get to travel in a Learjet. Have YOU ever travelled in a Learjet? Learjets are cramped. You can’t walk around in them; you sort of have to scuttle around bent over. Some executive jets don’t even have bathrooms. But Learjets are fast. They get the passengers to their destinations quickly. These people do work long hours. They travel a lot. But they don’t get paid by the hour. They may be the factory and corporate managers. So that’s my definition of midde-class.

ANYONE who gets paid by the hour is, by definition, poor. They have to account for their time. If they don’t work (and don’t get their hourly pay), then they have NO INCOME. If they don’t work, they starve. It is possible that they do have a fair amount of money socked away for days when they can’t work. So they may not starve the next day. but the fact remains: no work, no pay. They have to fill out time sheets or time cards.

So, what makes someone rich? The rich travel, not on cramped little Learjets, but rather on converted airliners. They don’t carry suitcases; their clothing is kept for them at various locations, perhaps they have houses or apartments at those places. The rich have staffs of lawyers and accountants … they can actually change the laws to accommodate their needs and wants. The rich don’t have insurance; their assets are held in trusts. Trusts are protected asset classes; if you sue someone, for example, over a car accident, you may find that the only asset in that particular trust is the car. Anyway, the rich privately OWN factories and corporations; they employ the middle-class managers and executives … and the people who do the hands-on work in those factories and offices are the working poor.

So who are those who live in cardboard boxes,may be suffering from acute mental illness, and eat at soup kitchens or worse? Those are the poorest of the poor.
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Hey, by any chance have you been reading “Rich Dad, Poor Dad”? 😛

I’m almost done reading that book and your post sure does remind me of that book. Interesting stuff…
 
Sr_Sally said:
It sounds like your first step should just be to get your finances in some order. I know that math, budgeting, investing
can be scary and people think it is too hard, but the first step is pretty easy. Simply tracking exactly how you spend your money.

Then once you and hubby have decided on some priorities–ie, homeschool materials over eating out, you can begin to make a budget.

Of course, there are truly poor people in the US. But most financial advisors (Dave Ramsey is a great one) find that families in good health with one parent at a reasonable paying job can do fine.

As others have said, it is a matter of setting priorities and not being swayed by advertisers, friends, etc to spend above your means.

I like Finances for Today’s Catholic Family by Philip Lenahan. It has all the same debt reduction advice but uses language (virtues etc) that we are more familar with.

May you be blessed to be a blessing!
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Thanks for your great advice. I agree that proper planning is the key to success, and lucky for my family we have only about a couple of hundred dollars in credit card debt and I’m only 2 more payments away from paying my car off 🙂 . In the past however, I would always find a way to sabotage my efforts once I started, and I believe it had to do with my belief that I can’t be a good Catholic and have money. I am slowly working to make amends with old negative beliefs about money that I’ve held most of my life and changing them to good ones, partly due to this thread.

I used to be afraid of math,but I understand that all I need is basic adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing to learn the fundamentals of personal finance. Math *is *my friend. 😃
 
queenofmycastle said:
Thanks for your great advice. I agree that proper planning is the key to success, and lucky for my family we have only about a couple of hundred dollars in credit card debt and I’m only 2 more payments away from paying my car off 🙂 . In the past however, I would always find a way to sabotage my efforts once I started, and I believe it had to do with my belief that I can’t be a good Catholic and have money. I am slowly working to make amends with old negative beliefs about money that I’ve held most of my life and changing them to good ones, partly due to this thread.

I used to be afraid of math,but I understand that all I need is basic adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing to learn the fundamentals of personal finance. Math *is *my friend. 😃
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Modify your belief: “… to be a good Catholic, you can’t WASTE money …”.
 
Al_Masetti said:
Jesus and his family were skilled artisans. They built houses and furniture and other products made of wood.

Definitely not poor.

Their friends owned fishing boats and nets and had their own businesses.

When Jesus wanted to feed the multitude, one of his disciples said it would cost a year’s income to feed them. Clearly: someone who knew the meaning of a denarius.
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I dont understand your point here.

Jesus didnt have anything, he reminds me of Pope John Paul II in one sense, some could look at him as wealthy, but he died with nothing, no possessions to pass on, and he gave up his life to serve the Lord, he didnt know he would end up at the Vatican, priests arent exactly loaded. And, at the end of the day he retires to his cell.

I think the smartest thing that has been said is “to be a good Catholic you cant waste money”. But, is this also relative? What is wasting? Is buying a flashy car wasting money? Or is it ok because youve worked hard and earned it? I know im struggling at the moment. Ive been studying for years and when i finish law i can make so much money (especially because i attend a great and reputable law school) but thats not why i did law to begin with, but what if i did choose a career that makes me alot of money, do i buy better stuff because ive earned it (Ive worked my butt off for 7 years) or is it a sin to buy a nicer car because i dont need it?
 
Agnieszka said:
I dont understand your point here.

Jesus didnt have anything, he reminds me of Pope John Paul II in one sense, some could look at him as wealthy, but he died with nothing, no possessions to pass on, and he gave up his life to serve the Lord, he didnt know he would end up at the Vatican, priests arent exactly loaded. And, at the end of the day he retires to his cell.

I think the smartest thing that has been said is “to be a good Catholic you cant waste money”. But, is this also relative? What is wasting? Is buying a flashy car wasting money? Or is it ok because youve worked hard and earned it? I know im struggling at the moment. Ive been studying for years and when i finish law i can make so much money (especially because i attend a great and reputable law school) but thats not why i did law to begin with, but what if i did choose a career that makes me alot of money, do i buy better stuff because ive earned it (Ive worked my butt off for 7 years) or is it a sin to buy a nicer car because i dont need it?
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LOVE of money…???
 
No, not at all for me. I dont love money, i really actually dont care about it to the point where it irritates people, im probably going to end up working in policy for the department of aged care or youth or wherever i feel is right when i make that decision. I had great big plans for working for the UN until i did my Masters degree in International Relations and found out what a joke it was and how its manipulated by the wealthy and, in many cases, actually exploits the poor. I was speaking mainly about people i know. Say for instance my parents. My father is a carpenter and he works pretty hard, is it a sin for him to have worked his butt off so he can buy himself a new car? Or a better home? After all, he doesnt need it, so is that waste?

BTW people have asked about wealthy saints, yes there were wealthy saints, but they didnt die wealthy, they died as nuns. I think when you have wealth, or when born into privilege (most of the USA) then there is a greater weight on you to ask why you were born into that and why you werent born an African kid in Sierra Leone.
 
vI think it would depend on why one wants to be wealthy. myself Id love to be wealthy for lots of reasons. some for myself some for causes I believe in. if I had millions the national and michigan right to life would be getting lots of help from mem for example. a school for emotionally impaired children that near and dear to my heart would be getting lots of help also. it you want to be wealthy just so you can live a slothful life style then thats a sin.
 
It seems that no matter what standards someone sets, rich folks have a tough time meeting them. I don’t consider myself rich but I have a tough time even meeting my own standards. I make a real effort to set aside a reasonable portion of my income for the Church and the poor. I try not to be extravagant but at times, I give in to my whims and buy stuff that is a bit over the top, especially if I think it is a good bargain.

I try not to overspend on myself. But I know if I really had to I could live in a poorer neighborhood, have a cheaper car, buy less stuff that I don’t really need. I’ve worked for what I have, but I don’t necessarily feel entitled to it. I haven’t obsessed over money and it doesn’t rule my life or my actions.

But part of this is because I have never really had to struggle to make ends meet, never had to worry where my next meal was coming from or whether I would have a place to live. I was only unemployed when I first got out of college and back then I had my parents to support me.

I wasn’t born with a “silver spoon” but I can say we live well. We are not extravagant at least we don’t think we are. We don’t have any Jaguars or Mercedes. We drive low end Hondas or Toyotas but for some folks even those may be considered expensive.

I think most folks in America have similar paths. We tend to lead sheltered lives. We don’t really see how folks really have to struggle in 3rd world countries. My guess is that the poor here have it much better off than the poor else where. And the working class here must appear to be very wealthy compared to the average worker there.

I’ve never really heard any sermons against wealth. Most warn against placing money or seeking money above God. One sermon by our pastor even said he understood that incomes in our area were very high but that was necessary because expenses and mortgages here were also very high.

Folks in our parish tend to be good donors for various causes. It is both an indication of the generousity of folks and of the income.

It is interesting to note that one of Christ’s best friends, Lazarus, was very weathy. I wonder if he would have ever considered buying a Lear jet or Jaguar ???
 
I guess one thing is very clear though, Jesus made clear to us that those who are rich have a greater responsibility to give more alms to the poor. Remember when that old woman went past a synagogue and gave some money but the rich person gave more and Jesus said that she has given so much more because she has so little. I think that is true of the rich. They may give more but give much less by comparison to a poor person who cant afford to throw in a penny but does so anyway.

How much does the church recommend giving to the poor? is it 10% of your salary?
 
Agnieszka said:
I guess one thing is very clear though, Jesus made clear to us that those who are rich have a greater responsibility to give more alms to the poor. Remember when that old woman went past a synagogue and gave some money but the rich person gave more and Jesus said that she has given so much more because she has so little. I think that is true of the rich. They may give more but give much less by comparison to a poor person who cant afford to throw in a penny but does so anyway.

How much does the church recommend giving to the poor? is it 10% of your salary?
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Great question. How much should a person figure out how much to give to the poor? Can this be to the poor, or can it be for for any non-profit organization like Habitat for Humanity, Red Cross, etc…?
 
Christians in general and Catholics in particular have historically had a fairly dismal record of giving, percentage wise. There has been a recent movement (Stewardship groups) in the Church to give more (I think their target is 5%), but I don’t think it has made that much of an impact.

In the past Christians overall gave close to 3% of their income, Catholics gave around 2.4 %. Mormons gave the most at around 13% or slightly more. Also within each group the percentage varied from higher income groups giving less to the lower income follks giving more -(always seems to be that way).

The Bible used to imply 10% (tithing) but no group but the Mormons adheres to that. IF there were some minimum level of giving to get to Heaven, I think a lot of Catholics would be in trouble or “left behind”. I don’t know what the official teaching is, but I think the Church would benefit greatly if someone let everyone know what it is.
 
wcknight said:
Christians in general and Catholics in particular have historically had a fairly dismal record of giving, percentage wise. There has been a recent movement (Stewardship groups) in the Church to give more (I think their target is 5%), but I don’t think it has made that much of an impact.

In the past Christians overall gave close to 3% of their income, Catholics gave around 2.4 %. Mormons gave the most at around 13% or slightly more. Also within each group the percentage varied from higher income groups giving less to the lower income follks giving more -(always seems to be that way).

The Bible used to imply 10% (tithing) but no group but the Mormons adheres to that. IF there were some minimum level of giving to get to Heaven, I think a lot of Catholics would be in trouble or “left behind”. I don’t know what the official teaching is, but I think the Church would benefit greatly if someone let everyone know what it is.
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I think it is ten percent, i remember my priest saying it was ten percent, or maybe i read it somewhere in a Catholic brochure. It would be good to know, this is something i plan on adhering to.
 
I asked a priest about this today, he said that we should do what we can, ten percent is ok but he mentioned the parable of the widow who gave from what she needed versus the person who gave from his excess. I guess thats important too, sacrificing something you may need to give to the needy, or giving anything you can when times are tough, thats more important in the eyes of God.
 
My question would be how many Catholics actually donate 10% ?

IF our average is less than 3% my guess is that very, very few even come close. No wonder why Mary tells us very very few go directly to Heaven.

There was a protestant minister interviewed recenly and he had a very interesting practice. Every year he and his wife had been increasing their donations to his church. He started at 10% and each year he increased it by 1% He is up to donating 31% of his income. That is pretty impressive !
 
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