Is it a sin when very young children disobey?

[threeangels]

I have a new Baptist neighbor who loves to bring up religion with me. Yesterday her topic of choice was the sinfulness of children. She says it’s sinful when our kids (2 and 4 yrs) disobey us. I say that no, they’re just innocently learning about boundaries. I couldn’t find an answer in the catechism (maybe I didn’t know where to look). Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Chronister4673]

I would think you’d have to address the question through a discussion of our belief of an “age of reason.” This is why we hold off having our children receive Holy Communion until they’ve reached an age to which they can recognize that they’re sinning and make a proper confession of it.

Concupiscience is a fact of human life. Even after Baptism, it remains, making it easier for us to sin. It is the reason why children that age “test their boundaries,” as you put it. The fact is, though, that for an action to be a sin you have to knowingly and willingly commit it. Small children don’t have the capacity to make that decision, so there’s no sin. It’s equivalent to a mentally handicapped person doing the same thing. They don’t have the capacity to tell right from wrong.

The age of reason commonly accepted by the CC is around 2nd grade. Starting around K through 1st, they will begin to develop the awareness necessary for the mental understanding that what they’re doing is wrong and that they shouldn’t be doing it. Until that age, children are mainly creatures of impulse. I say that with love, as the mother of 3, stepmother of 1, and with 1 on the way.

I hope that I’ve been able to articulate an appropriate argument for you.

 

[Biblioassistant]

They haven’t reached the age of reason yet. I think you are right and your neighbor is wrong.

 

[Brenda_V]

I think you need to define “sin”. What she is calling “sin” may indeed not be what we as Catholics understand it to be!

Yes a 2 year old or a 4 year old can purposely do something they know is wrong but, it is not a sin! Or at least not a mortal sin, what they don’t have full understanding of what they are doing, just the impulsive, “mom, dad, doesn’t want me to do xyz but I l love doing it so why not?” Are they needing discipline? Of course and you did not say otherwise. You are right that this is a time of developing a conscience - something we are doing all our lives - but at this age, learning obedience to parents is the first thing, not lying, stealing etc. are also concepts that this age are just barely beginning to understand.

Brenda V.

 

[BamaRider]

Is it a sin when very young children disobey?

Prolly not, but when you deny them being yours 3 times after they cut up in Wally World* is.*

 

[Pastor_Jim]

I have a new Baptist neighbor who loves to bring up religion with me. Yesterday her topic of choice was the sinfulness of children. She says it’s sinful when our kids (2 and 4 yrs) disobey us. I say that no, they’re just innocently learning about boundaries. I couldn’t find an answer in the catechism (maybe I didn’t know where to look). Anyone have any thoughts?

If they sin, then, yes, it’s a sin.

 

[duskyjewel]

They are 2 and 4, Pastor Jim! They are not capable yet of forming the intent required for sin.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

They are 2 and 4, Pastor Jim! They are not capable yet of forming the intent required for sin.

God may hold them to a lesser level of accountability because of their age, but that doesn’t mean that their sin is not sin.

1 John 3:4 tells us that it is the transgression of God’s law that is sin. It does not make a distinction based on age or understanding.

If a child transgresses the law, then it is just as much sin as if an adult did it.

 

[puzzleannie]

If they sin, then, yes, it’s a sin.

no a child under the age of reason may do an action that is objectively sinful, but they cannot incur the guilt of sin until they are capable of the conditions for sin: sinful matter, full knowledge and full consent. By definition, and you will find this in the CCC in the morality section under conscience, and in the sacraments section on age for sacraments, children under about age 7 are not capable of full knowledge and consent, so they cannot sin.

a child may understand naughtiness and as OP says be learning boundaries and rules and obedience, but that is not the same as sin.

 

[whatevergirl]

God may hold them to a lesser level of accountability because of their age, but that doesn’t mean that their sin is not sin.

1 John 3:4 tells us that it is the transgression of God’s law that is sin. It does not make a distinction based on age or understanding.

If a child transgresses the law, then it is just as much sin as if an adult did it.

Do you suppose that John was talking to toddlers and kids under 8, when he was relaying that message? I doubt it–he was speaking to adults–at least children that were probably capable of grasping the message. I also know that one needs to be able to read Scripture, and not many 2/4 year olds know how to read, yet…not to the level of absorbing and understanding the Bible.

Are you Catholic? If so, why doesn’t the Church require toddlers to go to confession? So, you feel that on Judgement Day, if a child say died before the age of reason…God is holding them accountable for a sin he/she didn’t fully understand doing?

Maybe we have a different understanding of God–God is love…He is not an unreasonable Diety, waiting to punish everyone for every little infraction.

 

[duskyjewel]

At that age, how would they know God’s law in order to transgress it? They cannot understand that. They do not know any of God’s laws as God’s laws yet. Sin requires that we a) know what we are doing breaks God’s law and b) that we choose to do so in the full knowledge of that. Children this young are not capable of that.

That is why we have the concept of the age of reason. Children at about 7 or 8 are old enough to understand part of that and to begin to be held accountable. I still don’t think they are capable of MORTAL sin at that age, only venial.

As they progress into adolescence, of course, and gain more ability to understand these things, then of course, they become capable of adult things, including mortal sin.

 

[jwashu]

Pastor Jim and his misinterpretations of the Bible… fun times.

I’ve been where he is and the lack of understanding in what certain parts of the Bible are actually talking about coupled with a Fundamentalist mindset leaves no room logic nor conversation. In fact it can leave little room for God as well. Of course since I don’t know Pastor Jim and because I believe it’s wrong to do so, I’ll make no assumptions in regards to his daily walk with Christ.

This is the mindset though that teaches 4 year olds that they are going to burn in hell as are their friends if they don’t “save” them. Yet at that age they can’t truly not understand what it means, it’s only fear tactics.

A child is born into Original sin but that sin is washed away at Baptism. At the time the Child is washed in the water and the spirit through the faith of their parents until they are able to understand and profess that faith on their own. As others have said that is about second grade or so.

While they may do things that are wrong there is no possibility of a mortal sin that would separate them from God because they do not understand the consequences. Christ told his disciples to bring the children to Him. He also told us to have Faith like that of a child. A faith that is innocent and unquestioning of the Fathers will. If that understanding, if that Faith wasn’t different, wasn’t something unique that most adults would have to strive for, Christ wouldn’t have asked us to do it nor have pointed out that children were somehow different.

It’s truly Glorious when you think about it. Almost 2000 years later our Psychologists and Neurologist have started to learn how the body is different, how children reason differently and aren’t just mini adults. Yet our Lord told us this 2000 years ago if would have just had ears to hear.

Joe

 

[Litcrit]

Puzzleannie is completely right.

 

[AnnieS]

hmmm… I’ll have to follow this thread - and look at our Catechism - OP - I’m now Catholic, but was raised in a very faithful evangelical Protestant (probably similar to Baptist?) family. I always had the understanding that, yes, young children disobeying is sin. My understanding was that God wanted me to obey my parents, so when I didn’t, that was sinful. I’m pretty sure I understood that before age 7, and I wasn’t that bright of a kid

I guess my definition of sin was anything that was wrong, and I knew it was wrong to disobey. My oldest is 10 mos, so I don’t think we’re at that point yet, but I definitely think little kids get that…

sorry for rambling - just want to follow this thread and think this through more.

 

[Litcrit]

To clarify: children can do things that are objectively wrong and they might be somewhat aware of that, but they do not have a moral conscience. The wrongs they might commit stem from the fallen state of our world, but they are not their personal sins. They can’t even confess when that young = they can’t personally sin.

 

[jwashu]

hmmm… I’ll have to follow this thread - and look at our Catechism - OP - I’m now Catholic, but was raised in a very faithful evangelical Protestant (probably similar to Baptist?) family. I always had the understanding that, yes, young children disobeying is sin. My understanding was that God wanted me to obey my parents, so when I didn’t, that was sinful. I’m pretty sure I understood that before age 7, and I wasn’t that bright of a kid

I guess my definition of sin was anything that was wrong, and I knew it was wrong to disobey. My oldest is 10 mos, so I don’t think we’re at that point yet, but I definitely think little kids get that…

sorry for rambling - just want to follow this thread and think this through more.

I was too, but after working with abused children and years of Bible study I believe that to be incorrect.

As one of the above posters said, they can do things which are sinful but they lack the dept of understanding for that to be consider a sin that separates them from God.

Mainline Protestants, like Presbyterians, Methodist, Anglicans and Lutherans have a similar understanding to ours.

It’s the Fundamentalists / Evangelicals who would interpret it differently. (I was raised Baptist so I was taught as you were initially)

Joe

 

[AnnieS]

they can do things which are sinful but they lack the dept of understanding for that to be consider a sin that separates them from God. Joe

I think I get that concept - is that the same as not having a moral conscience? (I think Litcrit said it that way?)

How does understanding that something’s wrong and even feeling guilty transform into a moral conscience? This is confusing for me.

 

[anon52328184]

i don’t mean to sound sarcastic, but i would find another neighbor to hang out with. i had a neighbor like this once, and she got on my nerves and all of the other neighbors on the street by bringing up religion all the time. she just wanted to argue or make you feel like you weren’t quite good enough and she was always finding fault with something. believe me, if it is not your kids,
she will find something else about you or your lifestyle she finds sinful. catholics and baptists view sin differently i think. don’t allow her to make you feel guilty because your children are innocent and acting like normal children. i am sure you discipline your children properly.

 

[redrosetea]

I would nicely tell her to mind her own business. Those children aren’t even old enough to know what sin is…she is a fanatic from the sounds of it

 

[Belle10]

They haven’t reached the age of reason yet. I think you are right and your neighbor is wrong.

I think you need to define “sin”. What she is calling “sin” may indeed not be what we as Catholics understand it to be!

Yes a 2 year old or a 4 year old can purposely do something they know is wrong but, it is not a sin! Or at least not a mortal sin, what they don’t have full understanding of what they are doing, just the impulsive, “mom, dad, doesn’t want me to do xyz but I l love doing it so why not?” Are they needing discipline? Of course and you did not say otherwise. You are right that this is a time of developing a conscience - something we are doing all our lives - but at this age, learning obedience to parents is the first thing, not lying, stealing etc. are also concepts that this age are just barely beginning to understand.

Brenda V.

At that age, how would they know God’s law in order to transgress it? They cannot understand that. They do not know any of God’s laws as God’s laws yet. Sin requires that we a) know what we are doing breaks God’s law and b) that we choose to do so in the full knowledge of that. Children this young are not capable of that.

That is why we have the concept of the age of reason. Children at about 7 or 8 are old enough to understand part of that and to begin to be held accountable. I still don’t think they are capable of MORTAL sin at that age, only venial.

As they progress into adolescence, of course, and gain more ability to understand these things, then of course, they become capable of adult things, including mortal sin.

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