Is It a Sin......?

[Bullfighter]

Is it a sin…?

• To sneak into the US if you are a citizen of a foreign country when you know that what you are doing is wrong?
• To lie to yourself and others that what you are doing is right?
• To use fake IDs to obtain food, services, and other expensive items?
• To claim falsely that you are a US citizen when in fact you are not?
• To bring illegal items such as drugs into the US knowing that they will hurt the people using them?
• To have a child in order to stay in the US?
• To play on people’s sympathy for goods and services?
• To obtain employment in a country in which you are not a citizen knowing that citizens of that country are poor and unemployed?
• To expect the same services from a country where you have payed a limited amount of taxes and not caring that people who have paid taxes for decades will be turned down for these services when the money for those services runs out?
• To take an oath and swear to something in order to receive goods and services when you know you are lying?
  I ask these questions because I would like to know if there are different rules in the Catholic Church for people from different countries?

 

[catharina]

Sin is sin.
Culpability (guilt/innocence) for sin is a variable.
The Church recognizes in every situation that sin is sin.

The Church also knows that some are in coercive situations to the extent that their personal freedom is compromised. In any event, we are told “feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc…” We are not told to be sure those in need are sinless; we are not told to check their paperwork or conscience.

We are told by Jesus Himself that we should judge not, lest we be judged.

 

[Trishie]

I think you know the answer to that!
To lie is to lie, whoever we are.
There are dreadfully disadvantaged people in every country. And in the current economic situation there will be increasing numbers of people desperate for shelter and work and necessities, in the US as elsewhere.
I wonder where there is extreme poverty and oppressive govenment how many of us could actually refrain from some deception if it meant providing for our families?

I think even so that if any of us from any country does anything on your list, we should turn up for Confession for whatever degree of culpability.

Would we hold dreadfully disavantaged people up to the same standard as those who deceive or steal who don’t have economic necessity? This may be the point at which we might become more lenient in judgement whether they are citizens or not, do you think?

 

[pprimeau1976]

To sneak into the US if you are a citizen of a foreign country when you know that what you are doing is wrong?

There is a difference between what is illegal and what is wrong. Read or rent the movie Les Miserables and it will give you some perspective as to the difference.

To lie to yourself and others that what you are doing is right?

Again, you are assuming that everything illegal is wrong and everything legal is right. Not so.

To use fake IDs to obtain food, services, and other expensive items?

I would consider this as sinful. About as sinful as taking someone’s paperclip from their desk.

To claim falsely that you are a US citizen when in fact you are not?

I would consider this as sinful. About as sinful as clicking, “Yes, I have read the terms and conditions.” to a software licensing agreement when you really didn’t.

To bring illegal items such as drugs into the US knowing that they will hurt the people using them?

This is definitely sinful.

To have a child in order to stay in the US?

Wasn’t the first commandment to “multiply and be fruitful?” This isn’t a sin at all. What is a sin is to assume that a child is born for the sole purposes of staying in the U.S., just as it would be to assume that all U.S. mothers give birth in order to gain a tax deduction.

To play on people’s sympathy for goods and services?

Definitely not! If it were, then it would be sinful for those “Christian Children’s Fund” commercials to be shown on T.V. as well. You know…the ones that have you “adopt” a child?

To obtain employment in a country in which you are not a citizen knowing that citizens of that country are poor and unemployed?

“Poor” is a relative term, isn’t it. I know of people in this country who think their poor who still have cable T.V. and access the internet. And I know of poor people in other countries who live in rat infested slums and who have to feed their children dirt patties so that they won’t feel hungry. This really happens, I heard about it from a Food For The Poor priest.

To expect the same services from a country where you have payed a limited amount of taxes and not caring that people who have paid taxes for decades will be turned down for these services when the money for those services runs out?

There is nothing sinful in “expecting” anything, even if the expectation is unreasonable.

To take an oath and swear to something in order to receive goods and services when you know you are lying?

This would be sinful, but how often does this really happen?

 

[vz71]

Is it a sin…?

• To sneak into the US if you are a citizen of a foreign country when you know that what you are doing is wrong?

Yes it is a sin.
Inherit to the question is the knowledge of wrongdoing. I submit the question itself is tainted and is not going to yield any meaningful results.

• To lie to yourself and others that what you are doing is right?

Deception is a sin. Yes.

• To use fake IDs to obtain food, services, and other expensive items?

Again, deception is a sin. So this would be wrong.

• To claim falsely that you are a US citizen when in fact you are not?

Again, this would be a deception and a sin.

• To bring illegal items such as drugs into the US knowing that they will hurt the people using them?

Yes, this is a sin.

• To have a child in order to stay in the US?

It would be wrong to have a child for any other purpose then to fulfill God’s wishes.
I am sure God would know, but I question any others that would claim this knowledge.

• To play on people’s sympathy for goods and services?

It is not a sin to play on people’s sympathy.

• To obtain employment in a country in which you are not a citizen knowing that citizens of that country are poor and unemployed?

This depends upon the laws of the country.
If it is against the law, then yes it is sinful.
Else no.

• To expect the same services from a country where you have payed a limited amount of taxes and not caring that people who have paid taxes for decades will be turned down for these services when the money for those services runs out?

It is not a sin to expect anything.

• To take an oath and swear to something in order to receive goods and services when you know you are lying?

Deception is a sin.

I ask these questions because I would like to know if there are different rules in the Catholic Church for people from different countries?

Are you sure that is the only reason?

 

[Bullfighter]

]

There is a difference between what is illegal and what is wrong. Read or rent the movie Les Miserables and it will give you some perspective as to the difference.

I prefer “Key Largo”!

“When your head tells you one thing but your whole life tells you something else, your head always loses!”

Again, you are assuming that everything illegal is wrong and everything legal is right. Not so

What about moral and immoral.

.

I would consider this as sinful. About as sinful as taking someone’s paperclip from their desk

Really? We just had a case here in Chicago where a hispanic alderman’s father was caught making fake photo IDs for the various illegal immigrants and probably gang members. He was doing it for years so the amount of illegal money gotten by his clientele was probably in the hundreds of millions.

Here’s the original indictment from the Department of Justice:
** usdoj.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2007/pr0529_01.pdf **

.I would consider this as sinful. About as sinful as clicking, “Yes, I have read the terms and conditions.” to a software licensing agreement when you really didn’t.

I see you have a very liberal attitude about other peoples money.

This is definitely sinful.

NO! Really?

Wasn’t the first commandment to “multiply and be fruitful?” This isn’t a sin at all. What is a sin is to assume that a child is born for the sole purposes of staying in the U.S., just as it would be to assume that all U.S. mothers give birth in order to gain a tax deduction.

So you are saying the sin is questioning the motives of the mother! By the way, “be fruitful and multiply” was the advice given when the world didn’t have much of a population. Today the world is overpopulated.

Definitely not! If it were, then it would be sinful for those “Christian Children’s Fund” commercials to be shown on T.V. as well. You know…the ones that have you “adopt” a child?

There is legitamate poor and there is panhandling. I once saw a perfectly healthy Mexican walk up to a handicapped man in a wheelchair in front of Church and ask him for money because the handicapped man had a small bucket for donations in front of him. Talk about nerve.

“Poor” is a relative term, isn’t it.

Yes. Just try getting money from your relative if they know your poor.

I know of people in this country who think their poor who still have cable T.V. and access the internet. And I know of poor people in other countries who live in rat infested slums and who have to feed their children dirt patties so that they won’t feel hungry. This really happens, I heard about it from a Food For The Poor priest

Wouldn’t you say those people should be fed before illegal aliens?

There is nothing sinful in “expecting” anything, even if the expectation is unreasonable.

We will see!

This would be sinful, but how often does this really happen?

Every time a person signs his name for public assistance.

 

[pprimeau1976]

]

I prefer “Key Largo”!

Les Miserables is far better. It shows what happens when society focuses on “justice” and forgets mercy. Both are good qualities, but without each other they are vices.

What about moral and immoral.

How are these different from right or wrong? If we supposed everything that was legal was moral then abortions would be moral. Not so.

Really? We just had a case here in Chicago where a hispanic alderman’s father was caught making fake photo IDs for the various illegal immigrants and probably gang members. He was doing it for years so the amount of illegal money gotten by his clientele was probably in the hundreds of millions.

Here’s the original indictment from the Department of Justice:
** usdoj.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2007/pr0529_01.pdf**

This is a far cry different than the simple case you set before me. Using a fake ID is not always sinful and even CREATING fake ID’s are not always sinful. There were many Jews who were smuggled out of European countries in WWII thanks to fake ID’s.

I’ll relpy to the rest of your response later.