Is it a true God or our own construct of "god" in the Bible?

[curious_cath]

“How do we know Moses got it all right?” I submit that the only way to answer that question is to value these writings on a spiritual rather than historical level.

Moses lived in about the 13th century BC. Some 600 years later, in the 7th century BC, the king Josiah allegedly finds a fragment of the book of Deuteronomy in the Temple. Is this plausible to assume that a piece of scrolls survived 600 years of turbulent history in the Temple? Then we are told that Ezra read the books of Moses aloud to the people during the time of Nehemiah in the 5th century BC. Is there evidence that the books of Moses as we know them now existed before Nehemiah?

 

[curious_cath]

Lies don’t last 10k+ years.

Thanks for your opinion. A false image of God is not necessarily a lie. It could be a product of a given cultural-historical state of a nation. It could be that just a few things are missing from this image, like grace, love and mercy. We know about these attributes of the living God through Jesus.

To believe in the Incarnation is to believe that the true God is not a human construct but truly came from outside of time and space.

Would that mean we only know this living God through the Incarnation of Jesus Christ? I tend to agree with that! I have the impression that the New Testament is not only a key for the Old Testament but the only possible understanding of the true image of God.

Someone had to reveal first that God has revealed Himself in the Bible, otherwise we would not know it.

To this day many Jews believe that for the Torah, that “someone” is Moses.

The role of Moses in the Bible poses serious historical problems. We don’t know about literacy back at Moses’ time. So he definitely did not write down the books of the Pentateuch. If his books remained to the posterity by oral tradition, then someone else had to write down that oral tradition several hundred years later. How is it possible to write 5 books word by word based solely on oral tradition? Why are these books called Moses’ books rather than that person’s books who wrote them down?

Other problems could be pointed out. All in all, can we call Moses the “First Revelator” unless we have resolved these problems?

 

[ericc]

We hold that God has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. However, we don’t know where is this belief coming from. Someone had to reveal first that God has revealed Himself in the Bible, otherwise we would not know it. But then who revealed that information to this person? You see, everything we know from the Scriptures points toward a First Revelator, who revealed it first! But who was the First Revelator?

For gentiles, this belief came from the Apostles and their successors. Throughout the centuries, God continues to touch people, saints and ordinary people. For those God-touched, no explanation nor proof is necessary. One may read of reports of miracles from ordinary folks, they are not known to be tricksters. Or known to be credible people not prone to hallucinations or gaining in some way. There continue to be saintly folks who have been given the special gifts, such as healing, speaking in tongues and so on. If Christianity is a hoax, realities would set in very fast as skeptical people would soon prove the religion wrong. The NT was written while the early Church was going through persecution/rejection by the Romans or Jews. One sure way to kill off any budding religion is to verify the claims of the early Christians.

The opponents of the early Church just need to prove the events in the Gospels to be false and the Church will come crashing down. The Jewish authorities have the records. Was Jesus born in Bethlehem? Jesus parents were there to register themselves. Were babies slaughtered in Bethlehem by Herod? Was the genealogy of Jesus correct? Is he of King David seed? Did the 3 wise men came and visit Herod? Did Jesus died? Was there an empty tomb? Were the miracles reported fake? Check with the Centurion? Was St Paul an anti-Christian that got converted? Was there an earthquake when Jesus died? Did the veil in the temple got torn in half vertically? Was there darkness on Good Friday? So many claims that Church opponents can just pick up any one of them to prove wrong. There were probably hundreds of thousands of pilgrims on that Good Friday that can verify the events there. Interview residents of Nazareth, Bethany, all the spots that Jesus taught and performed miracles and couldn’t find a fake miracle? That say something about the MAN. That’s why I think it is hard to discredit Christianity because early efforts to do that have already failed at that time when events are still fresh in people’s minds.

 

[ericc]

What we know is that the Bible was written by human hands. How do we know that those human hands wrote down the revelation of God about himself and not the revelation of man about his image of God? If we assume that God himself did not grab a pen to fancy a book about himself, then we have to say that whatever we learn about God in the Sacred Scriptures is coming from human hands. Even if we are talking about the best human beings led by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, those pages were filled by human beings of fallen nature and human frailty. We may say the Bible was written by sinners.

It doesn’t matter. Jesus promised that he will be with us till the end of time and that the Holy Spirit will be there to guide and teach us all the way through his Church. We have a divine promise and knowing what we know about Jesus, we have nothing to fear except our failure to live up to his expectations. If you have faith in Jesus, why doubt his promise?

Even the hands of sinners can still write truth.

 

[ericc]

How should we read the Bible if we want to see God behind the image that was drawn about Him by the writers of the Sacred Scriptures? Can we take off the wrapping of futile words of times, culture and history in order to get the bare truth about God? How would Jesus help us to see behind the image and get a grasp of the true thing?

The Church. This is the institution that he set up built on Peter charging him to feed/lead his sheep.

 

[curious_cath]

The NT was written while the early Church was going through persecution/rejection by the Romans or Jews.

Dear ericc, this is absolutely true. My problem was about the First Revelator. Who could have been the person who revealed the very first time that what is written in Scriptures is the Word of God? This probably happened much earlier than the time of the early Church.

We need a first authority who reveals the truth about what is revealed. Otherwise we can only say, the Bible is the Word of God because it is. Or the true nature of God is exhibited in the Bible because it is the true nature of God. These statements are called tautologies, explaining themselves by themselves. Tautologies carry no information, that is why we need to break the cycle of tautologies to arrive to the First Revelator.

 

[ericc]

Dear ericc, this is absolutely true. My problem was about the First Revelator. Who could have been the person who revealed the very first time that what is written in Scriptures is the Word of God? This probably happened much earlier than the time of the early Church.

We need a first authority who reveals the truth about what is revealed. Otherwise we can only say, the Bible is the Word of God because it is. Or the true nature of God is exhibited in the Bible because it is the true nature of God. These statements are called tautologies, explaining themselves by themselves. Tautologies carry no information, that is why we need to break the cycle of tautologies to arrive to the First Revelator.

That would be the Church. Remember there were other false gnostics writings circulating then. There was no Bible for almost 400 years as any student of history will point out. Read early Christian history, Church Fathers to see the struggle, growth of the early Church. No institution can survive such horrors without the Holy Spirit in those men and women to bravely weathered those trials.

 

[curious_cath]

Jesus promised that he will be with us till the end of time and that the Holy Spirit will be there to guide and teach us all the way through his Church.

This means to me that only those parts of the Bible are viable that have been validated by Jesus. The Church interprets the Bible in the light of Jesus’ revelation, in His Spirit, therefore overrides a false image of God that was a product of ancient times.

If it is so, the Jesus could be the First Revelator! But then anything that had been written before Him was not truly about God, only about an image of God. This image stands before us, the readers of the Scriptures as a product of human history, intention, culture and imagination. This image resembles to some kind of god and paves the way toward an understanding of God himself. But it is not yet the true image.

The true image was first revealed by Jesus.

 

[curious_cath]

That would be the Church.

The Church would carry over the revelation of the First Revelator who is Jesus. That is why we are the Church of Jesus Christ. Then we have accept all those things that were overridden by Him.

 

[ericc]

Moses lived in about the 13th century BC. Some 600 years later, in the 7th century BC, the king Josiah allegedly finds a fragment of the book of Deuteronomy in the Temple. Is this plausible to assume that a piece of scrolls survived 600 years of turbulent history in the Temple? Then we are told that Ezra read the books of Moses aloud to the people during the time of Nehemiah in the 5th century BC. Is there evidence that the books of Moses as we know them now existed before Nehemiah?

This may interest you: Ketef Hinnom Silver amulets.

Ketef Hinnom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2010/01/06/The-Blessing-of-the-Silver-Scrolls.aspx

We have archaeological evidence of pre-exilic 7 to 6th century BC rendition of verses from the Book of Numbers, Exodus, Deuteronomy etc. While that itself may not be sufficient to prove that the whole books exist at that time, we cannot deny that these are known subsets of those books, before the Israelites were exiled to Babylon. It is pre-exilic because the script was identified to be from the pre-exile era.

I don’t know the criteria for how much evidence must be shown before acknowledging that such books exist other than having complete books. But history normally doesn’t require 100% evidence to show existence. For example, if one page is missing, does it mean the whole book doesn’t exist? Increase the number of missing pages , at which point does a book stop being a book? What if we have the first and last page of the book? For me, evidence of existence is sufficient. This is not myth.

 

[curious_cath]

We have archaeological evidence of pre-exilic 7 to 6th century BC rendition of verses from the Book of Numbers, Exodus, Deuteronomy etc.

This could mean parts of the texts written down as the Books of Moses came into existence around that time. For example this could have been part of the folklore:

“May Yahweh bless you and keep you;
May Yahweh cause his face to
Shine upon you and grant you
Peace” (Coogan 1995: 45).

The referred article says: "Commented the late archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon:

This is now the earliest occurrence of a Biblical text in an extra-Biblical document, significantly predating the earliest of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is also the oldest extra-Biblical reference to YHWH, the God of Israel (1987: 124; cf. King and Stager 2001: 306)."

Kathleen Kenyon is famous about proving through archaeology that the fall of Jericho cannot be historical. At the time of the Exodus (plus or minus 100 years) the city of Jericho was unpopulated and already laid in ruins.

 

[ericc]

This means to me that only those parts of the Bible are viable that have been validated by Jesus. The Church interprets the Bible in the light of Jesus’ revelation, in His Spirit, therefore overrides a false image of God that was a product of ancient times.

Not true and not possible. Jesus ministry lasted only about 3 years. His primary message is that of salvation in the Kingdom of God. In Mat 5:17 he told us “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” He even legitimized the High Priest that sat on Moses Chair.

There were many OT books that Jesus never commented on. That does not invalidate them. All the OT prophets are prophets of God. You hear “Thus says the Lord” or the “Lord said to me” frequently. There is no cherry picking. Whether in the OT or NT, God speaks to us. But in the NT gentiles are invited to the feast formerly reserved for Jews only.

The Catholic Church teach what has been handed down from the Apostles. That is what we call Sacred Tradition among other things.

 

[ericc]

This could mean parts of the texts written down as the Books of Moses came into existence around that time.

You couldn’t expect whole books in a tiny tiny amulet. And these are selected phrases from various books of Moses.

For example this could have been part of the folklore:

“May Yahweh bless you and keep you;

May Yahweh cause his face to

Shine upon you and grant you

Peace” (Coogan 1995: 45).

There was no evidence of folklore offered. But we know that phrase was from book of Numbers 6:24-25. But if someone were to say that phrase came from a particular folklore that is known and able to show it, perhaps that would give the folklore angle a greater bite. The problem with the folklore explanation is none has been able to show which folklore was that. Some atheists furnish the folklore objection automatically but which one to date has provided a source for the supposedly folklore? Even folklore has a history of story telling. But not this.

Kathleen Kenyon is famous about proving through archaeology that the fall of Jericho cannot be historical. At the time of the Exodus (plus or minus 100 years) the city of Jericho was unpopulated and already laid in ruins.

There are other archaeologists who disagree. This is a rather good summary. Jericho chronology dispute - Conservapedia

Conclusions get updated from time to time with better data, or from different angles of analysis. Even the silver amulets got a helping hand from better technology to arrive at better legibility. Read both sides of the argument and see for yourself which explanation has a better holistic support for it. Kenyon’s problem is that her data was not made available for peers to critique until after her death and her high standing does make it difficult for lesser known peers to challenge her conclusions I’d imagine. Not every famous person get it right all the time. Even Einstein.

 

[goout]

Is it a true God or our own construct of “god” in the Bible?

You bring up a pressing issue that causes a lot of confusion in our evangelization.
It’s the concept of both/and.

The word “or” in your question presents a false dichotomy. Christianity is incarnational, and all of it’s questions must keep this in mind because it informs our thinking with a radical departure from that of “the world”. The thinking of “this world” insists on oppositions, in Christ we move toward unity.

Christ is not divine or human, he is both human and divine. Likewise scripture: it is a partnership, if you will allow the language, between God and mankind.
The human element contributes much human contradiction. God speaks only one and final Word, Jesus Christ, and all of scripture points to Him and must be read through him.
Christ does not contradict scripture, he fulfills it, gives it it’s full meaning and life.

How can God work his saving inspiration through the messiness of scripture?
Love does such things.

 

[guanophore]

We hold that God has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. However, we don’t know where is this belief coming from.

The Scriptures testify this about themselves, but then we are left with the question of how do we know what purports to be scripture is actually a revelation from God? Did people make a mistake when they decided which books were actually “God-breathed” (theopneustos)?

Someone had to reveal first that God has revealed Himself in the Bible, otherwise we would not know it. But then who revealed that information to this person? You see, everything we know from the Scriptures points toward a First Revelator, who revealed it first! But who was the First Revelator?

This is an excellent question. Naturally we believe that God revealed Himself to mankind from the day humans were created, but from Adam and Eve until Moses, there was no written record, or no concise one as he created. So, what revelation was present for those millenia?

Scripture also states that God is revealed in His Creation, and even those who do not accept the Bible as theopneustos will attest to this.

If we assume that God himself did not grab a pen to fancy a book about himself, then we have to say that whatever we learn about God in the Sacred Scriptures is coming from human hands.

I don’t think we need to conclude this. Such a position excludes that God can move humans to participate in His plan to reveal Himself. It also precludes the gift of infalliblity, where God prevents humans from making an error so as to preserve the revelation of Himself.

If we see a humanly devised image of God in the stories of the Scriptures then what is the exact relation of that image to the one living God?

Actually I think this is another area of epistemology all together. This has more to with how humans PERCEIVE what is written. We read through the lens of our own human experiences and education (or lack of it).

How should we read the Bible if we want to see God behind the image that was drawn about Him by the writers of the Sacred Scriptures? Can we take off the wrapping of futile words of times, culture and history in order to get the bare truth about God?

I don’t think this is necessary, or even recommended. God revealed Himself to us within historical, cultural, and linguistic context. We will not be able to understand what is written without that context. If Jesus thought culture and history were “futile” He would not have been born into a human family, part of a human culture, part of our history.

 

[guanophore]

How would Jesus help us to see behind the image and get a grasp of the true thing?

Jesus has left us with two divine strands to help us grasp the truth. One is the Holy Spirit, who He promised will guide the Church into “all Truth” and reveal what He wants us to know. The second is the Church, which is also God Breathed, and that he has protected from error with the same gift of infallibility given to the writers of Scripture.

 

[ericc]

The role of Moses in the Bible poses serious historical problems. We don’t know about literacy back at Moses’ time. So he definitely did not write down the books of the Pentateuch.

Recently there is a claim for Hebrew being the world’s oldest alphabet by Douglas Petrovich, an archaeologist, epigrapher and professor of ancient Egyptian studies at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Canada.

https://patternsofevidence.com/2017/01/06/new-discoveries-indicate-hebrew-was-worlds-oldest-alphabet/

In Exodus 24:4 Moses was commanded to write down the words of the Lord. If he couldn’t write, then God couldn’t have asked him to do that.

In Acts 7:22 it is clear that he was literate in the Egyptian world. The theory was that Moses being brought up in the palace of the Pharaoh, was educated in Egyptian hieroglyphics rather than Hebrew. I don’t think he is illiterate, just not in the Hebrew language. He ran away to escape to Midian when he was 40 and started Exodus when he was 80. 40 years of palace education is a lot in those days. God didn’t say in which language Moses was to write it all down. So I guess whatever he is competent in.

I will be traveling. So I may be late in responding.

 

[curious_cath]

There were many OT books that Jesus never commented on.

He did not have to comment on all books. He simply overrode it all, by his teaching and his self-sacrificing love. Here are 5 famous strikes He meted out on the teaching of the Pentateuch:

1. “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment."
2. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
3. “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
4. “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King."
5. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

(Matt 5)

 

[curious_cath]

“May Yahweh bless you and keep you;
May Yahweh cause his face to
Shine upon you and grant you
Peace” (Coogan 1995: 45)."

There was no evidence of folklore offered.

Do you that kind of folk art you have on your kitchen wall as a cover? These covers usually have similar blessings embroidered on them that are being shared by everyday folks in their everyday lives.

https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/441423200960003745/

Kenyon’s problem is that her data was not made available for peers to critique until after her death and her high standing does make it difficult for lesser known peers to challenge her conclusions

All new discoveries are being challenged. The Catholic church rightly became very cautious after Galileo. Internal authority in the church cannot supersede the laws of the outside world. One has to acknowledge that the Earth is a round shape planet rotating around the star called Sun.

Recently there is a claim for Hebrew being the world’s oldest alphabet

That would be certainly interesting to know. However, teleological (I mean purpose driven, not to be read as ‘theological’) speculations too often miss reality. Even with good intention researchers sometimes trap themselves into speculations that are hardly contain any hard evidence.

I will be traveling. So I may be late in responding.

Thanks for letting us know. Enjoy your trip!

 

[curious_cath]

God speaks only one and final Word, Jesus Christ, and all of scripture points to Him and must be read through him.

Wow, this is a very powerful claim! Does it mean that everything in the Bible makes sense only through Jesus? I could certainly go along with that. I tried to say something similar by calling Jesus the First Revelator.

Christ does not contradict scripture, he fulfills it, gives it it’s full meaning and life.

This looks the same to me as overriding a false image of God in our minds and hearts.