Is it a true God or our own construct of "god" in the Bible?

[Shakuhachi]

Yes, and then we come to see some very different images of God. Some in the Old Testament are especially disturbing. Nonetheless, I think they all need to be sat with rather than discounted. I think we tend to take Biblical images of God too verbatim. So much of what we think about God comes from faith in the Bible rather than personal experience. That is why I think the Bible is there for our inspiration and reflection to lead us to our own experience.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Anyway you run the risk of going against Jesus since he quoted Moses, Psalms and the Prophets in the NT. Either you accept Jesus knows what he is quoting or you are accusing Jesus of quoting folklore. You can’t avoid the fact that Jesus is quoting his own words, him being God. For example, Mark 7:10. Is that folklore? Yes or no? Cherry picking the Bible get you nowhere.

Jesus often invented parables to make a point. Parables, fables, and stories were and still are common methods so teaching. I can refer to characters as if they were real historical people. “I admire Atticus Finch for they way he searched for truth and justice without prejudice. We should all try to be more like him.”

I also think that we cannot help but to try our best to discriminate between parable and historical fact and re-presentation of an event. The Gospels are not in perfect agreement and yet they do describe what I believe to be events in the life of Jesus. i dont need a lot of detailed accuracy for that. .

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

The Oral Tradition you speak of was very disciplined.
Those who witnessed Christ took this as a joyful solemn
God given duty and corrected one another to ensure
what was handed on was authentic. Bishop Robert Baron
and others speak of this. Some think that The Gospel according
to Mark was written by Peter’s scribe. In any event,
Jesus Christ said that heaven & earth would pass away, but
His Words would not pass away and promised The Holy Spirit
to lead in all Truth. And the Holy Spirit Divinely Inspired
the inclusion of 73 books in the Bible around the year 400.

 

[curious_cath]

I think we tend to take Biblical images of God too verbatim.

God always challenges us to look for a deeper meaning of His words!

Jesus often invented parables to make a point. Parables, fables, and stories were and still are common methods so teaching.

That is why we should not take his parables literally. He is a great teacher using these parables to convey a very high message, that of the Holy Spirit. The same way, we should look at the high message in the Old Testament writings below the bloody wording of its stories so that we can truly hear out the voice of God brought to us by the text of the Bible.

Jesus Christ said that heaven & earth would pass away, but His Words would not pass away and promised The Holy Spirit to lead in all Truth.

The Words of Jesus won’t pass away because we hear them through the words recorded in the Bible. Even if some of the Jesus sayings were edited/ modified by those who collected and wrote them down, there is a message under the textual variants that is 100% His own! This is how we can know the true Jesus!

 

[ericc]

Our Good Lord willed that his sayings would not be written down during his life time. Oral tradition kept them that became part of the folklore.

I think the verses we were discussing previously were OT. Moses was specifically directed to write them down Exodus 34:27. And in Deu 31:24-26, the Law was already written and put into the Ark of the covenant.

The Lord knew his ministry will be remembered and propagated by his apostles. There is no need for him to write down anything with this foreknowledge. The Septuagint was already in existence and he read from it in the synagogues. He obviously knew the NT will be in existence not long after.

Folklore is not necessary a bad thing if we are talking about story telling as a fun activity. But the Word of God is not story telling of fairy tales. The Word of God is not subject to “modifications” for fun story telling purposes.

 

[ericc]

Jesus often invented parables to make a point. Parables, fables, and stories were and still are common methods so teaching.

Of course! However, we know when he is doing a parable and when he is quoting or referring to the OT. We don’t mistake one for the other. Typically he will say “It is written” when quoting from the OT.

 

[Shakuhachi]

And it was written but “It is written” does not mean it is historical fact.

 

[curious_cath]

Moses was specifically directed to write them down Exodus 34:27. And in Deu 31:24-26, the Law was already written and put into the Ark of the covenant.

Moses actually did not write down anything. From his time there are no traces of any kind of literacy or written record of Jewish origin. Moses is a mythic figure who, according to the legend, led his wandering people in the desert for 40 years before they have ever seen the Holy Land or Jerusalem. The Pentateuch is loaded with stories and references to places and events that Moses could not have had any clue of, because he had never seen the Holy Land or knew anything about it. He died before his people entered the Holy Land.

The stories about the Ark of the covenant are another area of popular myth. If the Ark would have been kept in the Temple with a copy of the written Pentateuch in it as claimed, then there would have been people during the 700-800 years between Moses and King Josiah who would have known about it! But apparently nobody had known anything about this copy of the Pentateuch kept in the Temple.

The Word of God is not subject to “modifications” for fun story telling purposes.

We do have different collections of Jesus sayings and different versions of what He said. Even his life story is presented with subtle differences among the 4 gospels. These differences are already there in the first 3 gospels, the Synoptic. Then, a fundamentally different view and an abundance of substantially distinct teachings and a new list of life events, including the details of His Passion, is recorded in the 4th gospel.

 

[curious_cath]

“It is written” does not mean it is historical fact.

“It is written” means that something was written down by human hands of a human writer under the influence of divine inspiration through the Holy Spirit. This is what it means and nothing more. So God wanted to communicate His message with us in some form that we have to approach with openness and humility.

It is no doubt that the writings of the Scriptures contain high complexity messages from divine origin. This high complexity requires a complex approach to ‘decode’ or understand what the message is exactly about! Only a high complexity interpretation can truly lead one to grasp the divine intention of the message that is hidden beneath the recorded narratives.

It is a kind of laziness or simple escape from this high complexity when people stick to a very low complexity, linear and literal understanding of these texts. It s much easier for them to read aloud the verses without any kind of intellectual processing or reflection and produce a word-by-word interpretation. Then they try to impose this shallowness as mandatory for all. This would only lead them out of touch with reality, archaeology, recorded history and cultural context.

A truthful interpretation is never shallow. On the contrary, it is necessarily

• of high complexity;
• supported by archaeological findings and artifacts;
• embedded into historical time and events;
• understood in the cultural context prevalent at its time of writing.

 

[curious_cath]

The Oral Tradition you speak of was very disciplined.
Those who witnessed Christ took this as a joyful solemn
God given duty and corrected one another to ensure
what was handed on was authentic

How could it have been authentic when witnesses had to correct each other?

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Over the decades to prevent ‘whisper down the lane,’ as the Writings
were established perspectives in each of The Gospels were kept this way.
I’m sure Jesus Christ’s Promise of The Holy Spirit leading in all Truth
guided these things. One person’s memory could be fallible, but the tradition
of disciplined oral handing down was in place, which would, of course,
correct someone’s errors.
This is different than mere folklore, which could be a good moral
legend but not necessarily true. For example, the Miracles of Christ
are true, not legend.
Bishop Robert Baron and others who have been called
to respond to ‘modernism,’ and other things — and diligently
learned the faith that has been handed down — speak
on these things.

 

[curious_cath]

One person’s memory could be fallible, but the tradition
of disciplined oral handing down was in place, which would, of course,
correct someone’s errors.

How could you apply the same thing for the Pentateuch? Oral tradition over 50-60 years could be pretty much stable. This is the case from hearing Jesus’ teaching to seeing it written down is the gospels. But how would this work over 500-600 years?! The life of Moses can be placed in around the 14-13th century BC, but the written version of the Pentateuch only came out under Ezra and Nehemiah in the 5th century BC!

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

I’m not familiar with the history of when the Old Testament
was written down. I skimmed over some historical and Jewish
sources on the web just now.
While I must claim ignorance on how it was handed down,
and what is the precise history, we do know that
Christ Jesus Himself said that He did not come to abolish
The Law and The Prophets, but to Fulfill them, so while only
God knows the precise history, we do know that what has been
handed down happened and is for our learning. I do believe there
was an Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David,
Elijah, and that the important events are true, though the preciseness
of the history is not recorded, that the general Salvation History with
the detail we are left with is reliable. There are certain problematic passages regarding actions said to have been directed by God or in God’s Name that do not seem to be God’s Nature; — so for those I must rely on Learned Teachers like Trent Horn. The main idea is that many passages are from
a humankind’s point of view from human knowledge of God as opposed to from God’s point of view. Everything in Scripture and Tradition must be devoutly and carefully view through the lens of Christ.

 

[curious_cath]

There are certain problematic passages regarding actions said to have been directed by God or in God’s Name that do not seem to be God’s Nature

Yes! Is it not amazing that we are able to discern the true nature of God and we can even apply our knowledge to separate the sheep from the goat in the Scripture? Sheep from the goat: separate those parts of the writings that match God’s nature from those that do not.

many passages are from
a humankind’s point of view from human knowledge of God as opposed to from God’s point of view. Everything in Scripture and Tradition must be devoutly and carefully view through the lens of Christ.

I truly believe that the teachings, passion, death and resurrection of our Lord are the center of everything in our faith! Jesus would lovingly lead us through the jungle of words in the Scripture and Tradition, thus lending us His compassionate lens so that we might have true understanding of who He is.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Yes! Is it not amazing that we are able to discern the true nature of God and we can even apply our knowledge to separate the sheep from the goat in the Scripture? Sheep from the goat: separate those parts of the writings that match God’s nature from those that do not.

However, Christ set up a Church which is ‘the pillar and foundation of the truth.’ (ref. 1 Tim 3:15) The Scriptures are inerrant and properly interpreted show God’s Nature. “He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.” - 2 Peter 3:16 “For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” - 2 Peter 1:20
One of the main representations of The Holy Bible is that The Old Testament and The New Testament show two different Gods. Only the unlearned, no matter how intelligent misinterpret, take out of context, and/or do not take into account the different literary forms.
God is Merciful but also protects for all Eternity after this life those who trust in His Ways from those by freewill chose to oppose God and His Ways for all Eternity. Some of the harsher texts and actions in The Old Testament can only be interpreted as the people of God’s interpretation of God’s Will to eradicate evil. And even since Christ’s time some well-meaning people have
done aggressive & harsh things as opposed to compassionately firmly assertive things. I can understand how difficult these things can be for some well-meaning people. One of the saddest things is that there are some ‘tares’ that are diametrically opposed to God and His Ways that use hypocrisy to play at heartstrings that confuse well-meaning people.
It brings hope and joy that only God sees the heart and that only
the Merits of Christ bring people to Heaven. In Thessalonians, it says that
God will allow a ‘strong delusion,’ to see who will choose Him. It seems to
me that with communications making the world ‘smaller,’ that this deception
has increasingly gained ground over the last several decades. I hope to God
that we see ‘the Sign of The Son of Man,’ (ref. Matthew 24:30), soon. It will
bring all of humankind (those who have not chosen to be tares) into repentance.

 

[Midge]

Both Judaism and Catholicism share the same understanding of God as penned in the Bible. While Catholicism ended up with God’s revelation to humanity in the Incarnation as the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the reason for this is the same conclusion Judaism has come to in the years since the Bible was written so many millennia ago. Remember that the Scriptures, especially the Hebrew texts, were written by the ancient Jewish culture that had very primitive views on deities and the world and the universe in general. It was extremely limited. I’m Jewish myself, so I ought to know my own people’s history.

My people used to speak of God in language that made God sound like God had a body and arms and eyes and ears and legs, and as if God sat on a throne above a metallic dome that kept an ocean of water from drowning the people of earth but allowed rain to seep through as needed. God was like a Person in this type of language, but these were all metaphors. God did not possess any of these features.

In fact, as time went on in Judaism, God began to lose all these human metaphorical terms, and God became Transcendent. While God could still be personal, God was far above being what humans could understand as being a Person.

Yet in all of this, Scripture was not as important as you think it was. Surprised?

You see, in Judaism the Bible was not the first or final word in the religion of the Jews. The Bible was the product of Judaism. Judaism is the religious expression of the Jewish people, and the Bible is just one of the products of this religious expression. It was never the authority itself. So it was fluid through all this time. Additions were made to it and parts taken away from it. The reason? It was considered a Liturgical work, not a historical one. It was developed primarily during the Babylonian exile to preserve the Jewish culture to ensure the survival of the Jewish people and culture until they could return to their land and the Temple could be rebuilt. The Jewish Scriptures would not be standardized until the 6th-10th centuries A.D. (C.E.) during the time of the Masoretes. For Jews, the final product is the authorized version, not the “first drafts.”

As for did the product really come from God? Well, Jews and Catholics see things in the same way sort of. Whether it directly was spoken from God and penned word-for-word or had editors assemble the work from writers who were moved by godliness, God is in us all to do good. That is what “inspiration” is all about. It is not about hearing voices from the heavens, but about doing what God wants, sometimes without even knowing we are the instrument of God at the time we do it. This is likely what happened when people wrote or assembled the texts of the Scriptures, Old and New Testament.

To be continued…

 

[Midge]

And finally back to the original part of whether this is the message of the true God or not. For Jews, yes it is. We encounter God in its pages, its words, its psalms (which make up the majority of our prayers to this day–as it does for Catholics), and we find we encounter God personally by doing God’s will and living godly lives. We may view God on a personal level too, so we never feel separated by the fact that God is Transcendent.

For Catholics, because God is a Personal God but not a Person like you or me, God sent his Only-Begotten Son in order that humanity might understand God and witness God’s love for them directly. In a way, it’s the Christian way of encountering God but though Jesus.

For Jews, the Word of God is Torah, and for Christians the Word of God is Jesus, but for both the Word of God is the Bible and even more. The Bible teaches us the truth about God, but does not “contain” God. Remember, God is Transcendent in both our Traditions. God would not have sent Moses up Mt. Sinai to get the Torah or send Jesus to humanity if this were not the case. God is not immediately accessible to mortals. So you can’t expect God to be confined to a Book, even the Bible.

Yes, the words of the Bible have God in words of our own construct at times because it is very ancient. But it was written at a time when my people the Jews thought that the sun and the moon were attached to a metallic dome that revolved around the earth which was a platform supported by pillars. We weren’t very experienced about a lot of things. We still had a lot to learn, even about God. Excuse our limited language. What we did get right, the truths about God, still ring true, and they can apply to all peoples, Jewish and Christian and anyone.

 

[curious_cath]

The Scriptures are inerrant and properly interpreted show God’s Nature.

Exactly! Inerrancy means that whatever is written down in Scriptures that is in conflict with the true nature of God, is not an error. It must be something else that we need to discern. But it is not an error. It is in the Bible to teach us, how to discern texts and separate the sheep from the goat in terms of separating what is expressing or distorting the true nature of God.

One of the main representations of The Holy Bible is that The Old Testament and The New Testament show two different Gods.

Only one of those is the true God. The other one is not God, it is an image of God as was visioned by the ancient believer.

It brings hope and joy that only God sees the heart and that only
the Merits of Christ bring people to Heaven.

That is why the merits of Christ override everything that was contrary to these merits before.

 

[Trickypixie]

The question puts the cart before the horse. The true essence of the Bible cannot be experienced unless Christ is found first. A non-believer can read it and see it’s words but the underlying Unity only comes from the Holy Spirit. In order to grasp the Bible’s historic context, I recommend listening to Catholic radio. The history of Christianity and the Bible is a frequent topic on Catholic answers and other programs. In order to grasp the spiritual message of the Bible, you must first ask Christ for help in reading it, as without him, it is just words.

 

[curious_cath]

Judaism is the religious expression of the Jewish people, and the Bible is just one of the products of this religious expression. It was never the authority itself.

Thank you for your account. It adds important details to our understanding. For sure, we see why the text itself should never be worshipped in place of God.

The Bible (…) was developed primarily during the Babylonian exile to preserve the Jewish culture to ensure the survival of the Jewish people and culture until they could return to their land and the Temple could be rebuilt.

What I read about this period of time is that there was a religious boom among Jewish spiritual leaders who were exiled in Babyon. They could spend their time to develop Judaism in a way unseen previously. It may even be called some kind of “babylonian project” that resulted in a revival of faith after the return to Jerusalem.

For Jews, the final product is the authorized version, not the “first drafts.”

This absolutely makes sense to me!

Yes, the words of the Bible have God in words of our own construct at times because it is very ancient.

What amazes me is that from that messy language and symbolism, the true nature of God began to shine through. Of course, with the understanding that we need Jesus’ revelation to decipher to ancient ‘code’ of salvation.