Is it acceptable to disagree with the Church?

[Bookcat]

Truth with Charity…

“Charity in truth, to which Jesus Christ bore witness by his earthly life and especially by his death and resurrection, is the principal driving force behind the authentic development of every person and of all humanity. Love — caritas — is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. It is a force that has its origin in God, Eternal Love and Absolute Truth. Each person finds his good by adherence to God’s plan for him, in order to realize it fully: in this plan, he finds his truth, and through adherence to this truth he becomes free (cf. Jn 8:32). To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity. Charity, in fact, “rejoices in the truth” (1 Cor 13:6). All people feel the interior impulse to love authentically: love and truth never abandon them completely, because these are the vocation planted by God in the heart and mind of every human person. The search for love and truth is purified and liberated by Jesus Christ from the impoverishment that our humanity brings to it, and he reveals to us in all its fullness the initiative of love and the plan for true life that God has prepared for us. In Christ, charity in truth becomes the Face of his Person, a vocation for us to love our brothers and sisters in the truth of his plan. Indeed, he himself is the Truth (cf. Jn 14:6).” …

Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived. Truth is the light that gives meaning and value to charity. That light is both the light of reason and the light of faith, through which the intellect attains to the natural and supernatural truth of charity: it grasps its meaning as gift, acceptance, and communion. Without truth, charity degenerates into sentimentality. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled in an arbitrary way. In a culture without truth, this is the fatal risk facing love. It falls prey to contingent subjective emotions and opinions, the word “love” is abused and distorted, to the point where it comes to mean the opposite. Truth frees charity from the constraints of an emotionalism that deprives it of relational and social content, and of a fideism that deprives it of human and universal breathing-space. In the truth, charity reflects the personal yet public dimension of faith in the God of the Bible, who is both Agápe and Lógos: Charity and Truth, Love and Word. Pope Benedict XVI CARITAS IN VERITATE 1 and 3

 

[Bookcat]

“Because it is filled with truth, charity can be understood in the abundance of its values, it can be shared and communicated. Truth, in fact, is lógos which creates diá-logos, and hence communication and communion. Truth, by enabling men and women to let go of their subjective opinions and impressions, allows them to move beyond cultural and historical limitations and to come together in the assessment of the value and substance of things. Truth opens and unites our minds in the lógos of love: this is the Christian proclamation and testimony of charity. In the present social and cultural context, where there is a widespread tendency to relativize truth, practising charity in truth helps people to understand that adhering to the values of Christianity is not merely useful but essential for building a good society and for true integral human development. A Christianity of charity without truth would be more or less interchangeable with a pool of good sentiments, helpful for social cohesion, but of little relevance. In other words, there would no longer be any real place for God in the world. Without truth, charity is confined to a narrow field devoid of relations. It is excluded from the plans and processes of promoting human development of universal range, in dialogue between knowledge and praxis.” Pope Benedict XVI CARITAS IN VERITATE 4

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

 

[CMatt25]

This **** about the Church having all this weath in the form of art/buildings and it should sell it off to help the poor really gets old.
Why is this only thrown in the face of Catholics?

Maybe because the Catholic Church lays claim to be the one and only true Church of Christ, a humble carpenter of Nazareth, Who was all about helping the poor. Whereas Protestant churches have a different definition of Christ’s Church. To them it is often the entire body of believers among various churches. The Catholic Church however interprets Herself to be in a loftier position. So more is expected. Just giving a possibility as to why this is “thrown in the face”. A priest at one of my local parishes earlier this yr said in a homily his answer to the poor is to get a job while he was defending the parish asking for contributions for spending on church decor vs giving more to the poor. I know enough of Scripture to know that was not Christ’s only answer. So I must admit his homily troubled me on that day. So I guess I can actually understand why this is brought up and why it doesn’t get as old for me as it does for you. God bless you. Peace.

 

[Rascalking]

Maybe because the Catholic Church lays claim to be the one and only true Church of Christ, a humble carpenter of Nazareth, Who was all about helping the poor.

 

[edwest2]

Well, there it is. If people simply defend their opinions by accusing the other of being hurtful then how can we even start a conversation? If the only defense is - you’re hurting me by saying that, how do we begin?

When we say, I know I disagree with the Church and there’s nothing you can say to change my mind because I know I don’t agree then where does the conversation start?

Opinions cannot be regarded as a form of truth. This I’m OK, You’re OK form of thinking is just wanting to have more than one answer to a question. If we all truly desire a right answer and a knowledge of what the wrong answers are, we need to be able to listen. And we need to be able to know what the wrong answers are too. There are a lot of wrong answers on internet forums. And they are often defended by nothing more than - you’re trying to make me feel bad or you have some prejudice against me.

On our way to the truth, we need to identify the barriers to the truth and tear them down.

When we become Catholics, we need to understand what the Church teaches. We need to know the source of truth, both what we can perceive and what has been revealed to us by God. That is the fullness of truth as described in the Bible. Finally, we need to understand that those who reject any part of the truth also attempt to promote what they believe is true, here, at the same time.

If we look at the world incorrectly or other human beings incorrectly, we will desire what the world wants, and we will think in the way the world thinks. Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all the things that are in it. Getting the fullness of truth will give us life more abundantly.

The world uses its vain imagination to run further and further from the truth. It offers sometimes complex alternatives to the truth, but I’ve observed only one result – man becomes the center of all creation. The individual becomes the center of being. This distortion of the human person has led to the selfishness that destroys authentic human relationships and degrades the human person and human activity to nothing more than the pursuit of temporary pleasure and efforts to get more and more material goods and money.

The mission of the Church is to bring you into a relationship with the ground of all being - Jesus Christ. God, and the Church, will not force you to love Him.

God bless,
Ed

 

[CMatt25]

All true, I guess, but the moral obligation to obey the Church remains.
It doesn’t greatly matter if you can’t understand a particular teaching of the Faith, because you can still accept it, you can still say “The Church knows better than me.” Unfortunately, many people nowadays find it hard to admit that someone knows better than them. I find that kind of strange: wouldn’t it be comforting to know that you don’t have to re-invent the wheel, that other (very learned) people in other times have done a lot of the thinking for you.

I have been blessed in that I can understand, to an extent, most teachings of the Church. There are still one or two things I find it hard to get my head around, yet I accept them, because the rational evidence for the Catholic Faith as a whole remains so overwhelming.

Comforting to a degree I guess but God gave me a brain so once in awhile I still like to use it to think for myself with it. But I too understand the explanations of most teachings. God bless on your faith journey and peace.

 

[Victorious]

Well…no. Your tiny checking account balance is right there in black and white. The extra zeros on the end are tangibly not there. However, taking someone’s word that something abstract is true is not so black and white or tangible. We regard things to be good or bad, or right from wrong, by our environment and surroundings. I can completely understand how your tiny checking account just doesn’t add up to a million dollars, and when shown in black and white, I can agree with it. But some teachings just don’t add up the same way. If it did, the whole world would be devout Catholics and no one would ever have any questions, doubts or disagreements. But it’s not and therefore there are a lot of people still working on the details.

I can see why you would think this way, if the teachings of the Church were of human origin. But you fail to take account of the fact that the source of the Catholic Church’s teachings is not a mere human. When Jesus sent out His 70 disciples to preach the Gospel, He told them that whoever heard them, heard Him. Jesus is God. Whatever God reveals to us is true, precisely because He revealed it, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. Our failure to understand it – and divine revelation is so full of content that we will never understand it all – does not make it false.

 

[Victorious]

By the way, here is a good article on conscience and the Magisterium, which is not irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Victorious]

And here is another good article on point.

 

[Rascalking]

Well, there it is. If people simply defend their opinions by accusing the other of being hurtful then how can we even start a conversation? If the only defense is - you’re hurting me by saying that, how do we begin?

When we say, I know I disagree with the Church and there’s nothing you can say to change my mind because I know I don’t agree then where does the conversation start?

Opinions cannot be regarded as a form of truth. This I’m OK, You’re OK form of thinking is just wanting to have more than one answer to a question. If we all truly desire a right answer and a knowledge of what the wrong answers are, we need to be able to listen. And we need to be able to know what the wrong answers are too. There are a lot of wrong answers on internet forums. And they are often defended by nothing more than - you’re trying to make me feel bad or you have some prejudice against me.

On our way to the truth, we need to identify the barriers to the truth and tear them down.

When we become Catholics, we need to understand what the Church teaches. We need to know the source of truth, both what we can perceive and what has been revealed to us by God. That is the fullness of truth as described in the Bible. Finally, we need to understand that those who reject any part of the truth also attempt to promote what they believe is true, here, at the same time.

If we look at the world incorrectly or other human beings incorrectly, we will desire what the world wants, and we will think in the way the world thinks. Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all the things that are in it. Getting the fullness of truth will give us life more abundantly.

The world uses its vain imagination to run further and further from the truth. It offers sometimes complex alternatives to the truth, but I’ve observed only one result – man becomes the center of all creation. The individual becomes the center of being. This distortion of the human person has led to the selfishness that destroys authentic human relationships and degrades the human person and human activity to nothing more than the pursuit of temporary pleasure and efforts to get more and more material goods and money.

The mission of the Church is to bring you into a relationship with the ground of all being - Jesus Christ. God, and the Church, will not force you to love Him.

God bless,
Ed

It’s a double edged sword. Just because it’s all truth doesn’t give you the right to be as snotty and self-righteous as possible.

So, while you say “people simply defend their opinions by accusing the other of being hurtful then how can we even start a conversation?” that way of thinking can lead you into being an unpleasent snob who thinks truth gives you the right to be as rude, cold hearted, or cruel as possible-just because your have the truth doesn’t mean you should forget your manners.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Maybe because the Catholic Church lays claim to be the one and only true Church of Christ, a humble carpenter of Nazareth, Who was all about helping the poor. Whereas Protestant churches have a different definition of Christ’s Church. To them it is often the entire body of believers among various churches. The Catholic Church however interprets Herself to be in a loftier position. So more is expected. Just giving a possibility as to why this is “thrown in the face”. A priest at one of my local parishes earlier this yr said in a homily his answer to the poor is to get a job while he was defending the parish asking for contributions for spending on church decor vs giving more to the poor. I know enough of Scripture to know that was not Christ’s only answer. So I must admit his homily troubled me on that day. So I guess I can actually understand why this is brought up and why it doesn’t get as old for me as it does for you. God bless you. Peace.

Please see this post. I would like your response to it.
+God Bless

 

[Willy_Jose]

There was a memorandum sent by then Cardinal Ratzinger (who was then Prefect of Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) to Cardinal McCarrick which was made public in the first week of July 2004. The document is titled: “Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles”. Part 3 of the statement says:

“3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

 

[CMatt25]

Please see this post. I would like your response to it.
+God Bless

I don’t equate getting our Lord ready for burial with much of the marble and gold and splendor found in many Catholic churches and in the Vatican. And yes of course we’re always going to have the poor. That was an argument the priest I referred to used in his homily. However that doesn’t mean even more could not be done to serve them if we would only cut out a bit of the splendor and decor.

 

[LDNCatholic]

However that doesn’t mean even more could not be done to serve them if we would only cut out a bit of the splendor and decor.

Take it this post was made at an internet cafe as you’ve already given your computer away to a poor family or sold it off to feed the hungry?

Why not spend the money you’ve obviously spent at the internet cafe to feed the poor also?

I’m sorry if that seems rude, but I believe you’ve unintentionally made a great point. You used the word ‘‘we’’ to refer to the Catholic Church. The Church is not merely the institution that owns building and precious artwork. We are the Catholic Church.

Rather than selling our religious heritage into the hands of private collectors and having to celebrate the holy sacrifice of the Mass from rented rooms in order to ‘‘give a man a fish’’, why doesn’t every able bodied Catholic go out one day a week (or half a day a week) and volunteer their time at a soup kitchen, charity shop, or a charity office.

I think we’d see a change then and it’d be a bigger change than we could ever hope for than has been accomplished by years of throwing money at a problem.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I don’t equate getting our Lord ready for burial with much of the marble and gold and splendor found in many Catholic churches and in the Vatican. And yes of course we’re always going to have the poor. That was an argument the priest I referred to used in his homily. However that doesn’t mean even more could not be done to serve them if we would only cut out a bit of the splendor and decor.

I’m afraid you missed my point!

While building the Lord’s Temple in 1 Kings, did Solomon put forth only what was necessary for the God of Israel, the God of the universe? No! It was said,

"After Solomon finished building the temple of the LORD, the royal palace, and everything else that he had planned, the LORD appeared to him a second time, as he had appeared to him in Gibeon. The LORD said to him: **“I have heard the prayer of petition which you offered in my presence. I have consecrated this temple which you have built; I confer my name upon it forever, and my eyes and my heart shall be there always.” **

1 Kings 9:1-3

It is good that we make our Cathedrals (down to small parish church’s) beautiful places that will lift up and glorify the Heavenly name of God. Does He not deserve it? Isn’t the Mass “Heaven on Earth”? Isn’t Jesus really with us and His “eyes and heart shall be there always”? Wouldn’t you like to be reminded of Heaven when you walk into a Church? God is good to us. We bring Him gifts like the three Magi. We put forth our best effort. We do it all because we love Him.

Also, when we think of the artists and builders who donated their talents to make the Vatican what it is, it should edify us that they lifted their minds and hearts to Heaven and tried to represent as best they could a dwelling place for our Lord, like that spoken of in Kings and many other places mentioned in the Bible.

 

[CMatt25]

I’m afraid you missed my point!

While building the Lord’s Temple in 1 Kings, did Solomon put forth only what was necessary for the God of Israel, the God of the universe? No! It was said,

"After Solomon finished building the temple of the LORD, the royal palace, and everything else that he had planned, the LORD appeared to him a second time, as he had appeared to him in Gibeon. The LORD said to him: **“I have heard the prayer of petition which you offered in my presence. I have consecrated this temple which you have built; I confer my name upon it forever, and my eyes and my heart shall be there always.” **

1 Kings 9:1-3

It is good that we make our Cathedrals (down to small parish church’s) beautiful places that will lift up and glorify the Heavenly name of God. Does He not deserve it? Isn’t the Mass “Heaven on Earth”? Isn’t Jesus really with us and His “eyes and heart shall be there always”? Wouldn’t you like to be reminded of Heaven when you walk into a Church? God is good to us. We bring Him gifts like the three Magi. We put forth our best effort. We do it all because we love Him.

Also, when we think of the artists and builders who donated their talents to make the Vatican what it is, it should edify us that they lifted their minds and hearts to Heaven and tried to represent as best they could a dwelling place for our Lord, like that spoken of in Kings and many other places mentioned in the Bible.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree whether our Lord, who walked the earth a carpenter, would rather we show our love for Him by the things you bring forth. Or whether He would rather we show our love for Him and serve Him to an even greater degree as He taught for instance in Matt 25:35-46. There our Lord said we serve Him by serving those He mentioned. And by serving Him in that manner, eternal life was promised.

God bless you and peace.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree whether our Lord, who walked the earth a carpenter, would rather we show our love for Him by the things you bring forth. Or whether He would rather we show our love for Him and serve Him to an even greater degree as He taught for instance in Matt 25:35-46. There our Lord said we serve Him by serving those He mentioned. And by serving Him in that manner, eternal life was promised.

God bless you and peace.

You know, I won’t deny Jesus was humble and asked us to serve Him humbly.

That verse has named a few of the corporal works of mercy; thank you for referencing it. May I remind you of the spiritual ones?

* To instruct the ignorant;
* To counsel the doubtful;
* To admonish sinners;
* To bear wrongs patiently;
* To forgive offences willingly;
* To comfort the afflicted;
* To pray for the living and the dead.

Here’s my other point: we need to serve our Lord through the generosity of ourselves and others through both action and funds. EWTN, Eternal Word Television Network, is funded through the charity of Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. This isn’t money going to the physically poor, but the spiritually poor. Are we to ignore them if we put all of our money towards those who need clothing, food, etc? No, there is a balance and the Church works it out quite nicely–Praise Jesus! +Peace

Matthew 6:31-33
“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ “For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Proverbs 24:3-4
“Through wisdom a house is built, and by understanding it is established; and by knowledge the rooms shall be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.”

 

[Rence]

Take it this post was made at an internet cafe as you’ve already given your computer away to a poor family or sold it off to feed the hungry?

I thought Matt got his point across very well and already answered this when he said:
A priest at one of my local parishes earlier this yr said in a homily his answer to the poor is to get a job while he was defending the parish asking for contributions for spending on church decor vs giving more to the poor

“us” was trying to fed the poor…“us” was being asked for contributions and wanted them to go for feeding the poor, but instead “us” was being asked for contributions that the collector of contributions wanted to go for Church decor.

We don’t have to give up all we earn and work for to feed the poor. However, our contributions should go where we send the money…

-Rence

 

[PetersKeys]

Poor people don’t visit the Vatican.

LOL, you have never been to Rome or the Vatican have you…

And the answer to the OP is no. You can’t be a Catholic in good standing and support child killing. That’s like saying that you can be a humanist while at the same time being a nazi. What mindless logic…

 

[Bookcat]

Code of Canon Law (there is more…but here are a few…)

Can. 209 §1. The Christian faithful, even in their own manner of acting, are always obliged to maintain communion with the Church.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.